More fun at KAPA!

GauzeGuy

Pre-takeoff checklist
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GauzeGuy
Just landed at KAPA today and got another fun exchange.

Just for fun, how many deviations did Bonanza N7924D make? And when did ground start issuing clearances to enter an active runway? And what part of "monitor tower" didn't make sense. :D Also, do you think that his "my passenger stole my pen" will save him? :lol:

(I'm in 6346D on this clip.)
 

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  • N7924D.mp3
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It's epidemic at APA the last two years, people taxiing out onto the runway. The FAA auditors liked the special procedures of ground sequencing aircraft up to the hold lines, but didn't like those numbers, and worked to create the defined run up areas for ground controllers to give to pilots as a specific destination during ground clearances, but obviously the problem reappears when someone says they don't need a run up.

Nit-picky, but I don't hear the words "hold short" from the ground controller to the guy, and one of the operational areas the FAA auditors were concerned with was the phraseology "taxi TO runway XX". It implies in people's heads "on to" which it should NOT, but it's happening often. Far too many pilots can't get it through their thick skulls that unless a clearance is given onto the runway, they don't go out there.

I like the special procedures. They work fine if you have two brain cells to rub together. But I have a feeling if the runway incursion numbers continue to climb, they'll be forced to go back to the old way which caused significant traffic jams on Alpha when someone would pull out of the run up area and clog the taxiway and mess up the sequencing.

It's really not that hard, but people keep F-ing it up. I heard someone tell a story that they did it recently, but in their head they were "cleared onto the runway" and the person in the right seat giving a CHECKRIDE didn't catch it either. The nonchalant nature of how the story was told really had me seething inside, but I've learned that once someone like that thinks they were right, calling them out by saying you know the special procedures cold and the story they're telling could NOT have happened that way, doesn't go over well with them. Denial isn't a river in Egypt.

Note also how many people had to be prompted for whether or not they need a run up. The special procedure to "VFR departures, notify Ground Control your direction of flight, notify Ground if a run up is required" has been on the ATIS now for over a year as of November.

They had wording on there for a while that "all departures will be sequenced to the hold line by Ground" but they've been playing with the wording trying to make the ATIS shorter and I think it's not on there right now.
 
Just copied it ...

"VFR departures notify Ground Control direction of flight, all departures notify Ground Control when your run up is complete, all departures remain on Ground Control frequency until advised. Advise on initial contact you have..."
 
If the owner is the pilot he holds a ATP certificate too. he should know better. From his airman record, it does not show any medical. if that is true, that could start an interesting journey for him.
 
....
Nit-picky, but I don't hear the words "hold short" from the ground controller to the guy, and one of the operational areas the FAA auditors were concerned with was the phraseology "taxi TO runway XX". It implies in people's heads "on to" which it should NOT, but it's happening often. Far too many pilots can't get it through their thick skulls that unless a clearance is given onto the runway, they don't go out there.

.

Yeah... When I played the recording back the first thing that popped into my head was "Hold Short".. But then it was the ground controller and he/she cannot give clearance into an active runway.. Here at JAC, ground will give taxi instructions to either 1 or 19 , the "hold short" instruction comes from the tower guy when you switch to them, that is if traffic is an issue.. All pilots (should) know not to wander out on the runway without those magical words " CLEARED FOR TAKEOFF"
 
It's epidemic at APA the last two years, people taxiing out onto the runway.
Must have been a problem at KADS too because they now always add the phrase, "Do not cross the hold lines" every time they tell you to hold short of a runway. I don't know why pilots would have more problems at these airports specifically.

Note also how many people had to be prompted for whether or not they need a run up. The special procedure to "VFR departures, notify Ground Control your direction of flight, notify Ground if a run up is required" has been on the ATIS now for over a year as of November.
To be fair though, you are based at KAPA and have been hearing this for over a year but there are many transient pilots or pilots who rarely fly. Granted pilots should listen to the ATIS, but reporting if you need a runup is unique to KAPA.
 
To be fair though, you are based at KAPA and have been hearing this for over a year but there are many transient pilots or pilots who rarely fly. Granted pilots should listen to the ATIS, but reporting if you need a runup is unique to KAPA.
All the more important to notice that there is something different. There are phrases that are unique to different airports based on operational differences. What pilots (or their instructors) seem to miss is that these differences do exist.
 
Just copied it ...

"VFR departures notify Ground Control direction of flight, all departures notify Ground Control when your run up is complete, all departures remain on Ground Control frequency until advised. Advise on initial contact you have..."

You forgot:

"Mutiple flocks of bird in vicinity of airport, multiple cranes...."

:D
 
All the more important to notice that there is something different. There are phrases that are unique to different airports based on operational differences. What pilots (or their instructors) seem to miss is that these differences do exist.
I agree. Instructors probably don't point out enough that there are sometime varying procedures at different airports. I've noticed that especially when pilots are new they want a script or a recipe that will work everywhere. This not only goes for radio procedures but for everything. However the real world out there sometimes does not cooperate.
 
A good place to learn those minor differences is Live ATC, especially if flying to one that is online. Also while in PP trng ask your instructor if you can go into four different towered fields including one "C" like I did. I went to the "C" and two "D's" on my solo xc. If I get confused or something is unclear, I don't have a problem asking for clarification. Yes ATC may sound upset, but it is my ticket and my family's lives on the line.
 
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