Mogas STC - Ethanol Removal

itsjames2011

itsjames2011

Pre-takeoff checklist
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James
Hey everybody,

I assumed this would have been discusses in a previous thread however the search function didn't reveal anything so here goes....


I own a Cherokee 140 with a 160HP O-320-D2A. My airplane has an auto fuel STC however ethanol free gas is not available up here in Massachusetts with the exception of VP and Sunoco racing fuels which cost even more than 100LL at the moment.

I have been reading a lot of articles online and it seems that the process of removing ethanol from auto gas using water is a rather simple process. I know that this process will lower the octane rating somewhat but I'm just curious about the legality, safety concerns, and if anyone has experimented with this.

Thoughts?

James
 
The above link shows a handful of MA stations that may have it, then you should have a few airports not to far that sell 'mogas'. I don't think I the hassle and accuracy of removing the ethanol from fuel would be worth it. If it came to that I'd just burn 100LL.
 
Other than the fact that you don't know what you will be left with after you take the ethanol out (what additives will drop out with the ethanol?), you won't know the octane rating, and you will be left with a bunch of hazardous waste (water mixed with ethanol and who knows what from the gasoline additives), what could go wrong?
 
I use water, and a small fuel sample, to TEST for ethanol in my mogas, but not to remove it. What would be the point of trying to remove it? You don't save enough with mogas to make it worthwhile...
 
itsjames2011 said:
Hey everybody,

I own a Cherokee 140 with a 160HP O-320-D2A. My airplane has an auto fuel STC however ethanol free gas is not available up here in Massachusetts with the exception of VP and Sunoco racing fuels which cost even more than 100LL at the moment.

James
Click to expand...

A few fields, namely 7B3 (NH) and KSFM (southern Maine) I know have Mogas. SFM is currently $3.95/gal- prob not much savings to make the trip worth it....

On another note I see you are in Chicopee, we will be in your neck of the woods on Sunday at noon for a POA get together- consider going! Details here
 
itsjames2011 said:
Hey everybody,

I assumed this would have been discusses in a previous thread however the search function didn't reveal anything so here goes....


I own a Cherokee 140 with a 160HP O-320-D2A. My airplane has an auto fuel STC however ethanol free gas is not available up here in Massachusetts with the exception of VP and Sunoco racing fuels which cost even more than 100LL at the moment.

I have been reading a lot of articles online and it seems that the process of removing ethanol from auto gas using water is a rather simple process. I know that this process will lower the octane rating somewhat but I'm just curious about the legality, safety concerns, and if anyone has experimented with this.

Thoughts?

James
Click to expand...
There really isn't a safe practical method of doing what you need done.
The refineries won't even try it, they simply dump their mistakes back into the incoming crude and run it thru the refining process again.
 
I tried removing ethanol from 4 gallons of E10 with the water rinse/settle process. It worked but only used it in my lawn mower. I just dumped the waste water etc. The EPA mandates put it in there, they can have it back.
 
If there were any easy way to get it out of car gas for my car I would be happy, but the economics of it are probably terrible. Such a dumb dumb idea to add ethanol to car gas, just a handout to the farmers. I am an angry elf because I ran out of gas yesterday in my corvette, apparently the ethanol in gas attracts the moisture which erodes the fuel sender unit and I forgot to hit reset on mileage, among other problems and then I had to go buy one of those $^*&$#&( new safety gas cans. The idiocy of those is indescribable...... I guess back to work to support the 47%....
 
I wonder if there is a fortune to be made by using a centrifuge to spin off the water, (like separating cream from milk)?

there is probably a reason it hasn't been tried.
 
Back to your original question, I would think that adding water & cold settling would do the trick. This is essentially what is happening in your fuel tank 24 hours a day, minus the alcohol. The fuel in your tank absorbs moisture from the air as the tank breathes from day to night. Once the fuel is saturated with dissolved water it starts condensing out at night & during cold snaps. When you sump the tank you are removing the water that is in excess of what will stay dissolved in the fuel. (Dissolved may be the wrong word, but you get the idea.)

Save the ethanol/water mixture. Add some dish soap to it & use it was windshield washer fluid.
 
tawood said:
I use water, and a small fuel sample, to TEST for ethanol in my mogas, but not to remove it. What would be the point of trying to remove it? You don't save enough with mogas to make it worthwhile...
Click to expand...

Memories!

I did that at the non ethanol gas station before I filled my kegs, bought a small bottle of water, chuged it to one of the lines near the bottom of the bottle, filed it with gas, shook it, let it settle and made sure the level didn't go above the line.

Sadly my current plane won't run auto fuel.

Even in the communist states like CA and NY, it's not THAT hard to find non corn gas, all else fails just ask around with the off road and boating folks.

Don't think taking ethanol out of gas is a good ROI.
 
Tom-D said:
I wonder if there is a fortune to be made by using a centrifuge to spin off the water, (like separating cream from milk)?

there is probably a reason it hasn't been tried.
Click to expand...
Yea. There is a reason.

There is no need.

Except for a very small amount, water settles out on it's own.
 
@itsjames2011

You might check to see if there's a pipeline terminal anywhere in your immediate area...if there is then maybe they'll allow you to buy non-ethanolized fuel there. It's a long shot but you might get lucky.

Ethanol is added at the terminal. It can't go thru the pipeline since it'll separate from the gas. Thus you might be able to buy gas at the terminal before they add the ethanol.

10% ethanol adds 2 octane points to fuel. So keep that in mind if buying it before it's added, or removing it. But the latter I don't think will ever work.
 
timwinters said:
@itsjames2011

You might check to see if there's a pipeline terminal anywhere in your immediate area...if there is then maybe they'll allow you to buy non-ethanolized fuel there. It's a long shot but you might get lucky.

Ethanol is added at the terminal. It can't go thru the pipeline since it'll separate from the gas. Thus you might be able to buy gas at the terminal before they add the ethanol.

10% ethanol adds 2 octane points to fuel. So keep that in mind if buying it before it's added, or removing it. But the latter I don't think will ever work.
Click to expand...
Usually the pipe line company doesn't own the fuel that is in the pipe. they simply get paid to transport the product.
 
Even if it worked and you consider your labor free wouldn't you just end up paying for ten gallons of gas and only getting eight?
 
Silvaire said:
Even if it worked and you consider your labor free wouldn't you just end up paying for ten gallons of gas and only getting eight?
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There's a point, I don't know if that is how much you would loose BUT you will loose some.
 
Talk to a petroleum distributor... if you have the ability to store it, you might be able to buy it in 500-1000 gallon quantities without ethanol. It may be cheaper than 100LL once trucking costs are factored in.
 
Tom-D said:
Usually the pipe line company doesn't own the fuel that is in the pipe. they simply get paid to transport the product.
Click to expand...

Totally incorrect, depending on the company and the State.

There are common carrier pipelines, and private, and sometimes they're owned by the production company, sometimes by a transport company, sometimes by the refinery, and sometimes all of those are the same company.

Some misguided States force pipelines to be common carrier or they won't permit them. Notably, California and the west coast play this game a lot. Mostly it just complicated feeding refineries crude when I was out there working in that biz.

Everywhere else had multiple ways to get both unfinished and finished product around. When limited common carrier pipelines in Calif went down for maintenance or outages, all the refineries weren't long until they were into starvation mode. And people paid dearly for it at the pump, a short while after all the traders freaked out in our trading room.

All thanks to their government saving them from competition. LOL.

Finished product pipelines are rarer out west than crude pipelines however. Most finished stuff went out of the plant on trucks.

The real fun is when weather makes the crude tankers anchor up off shore and all those delivery dates get hosed. It takes months to straighten all the aftershocks of that out. Much bigger problem than most pipeline problems. Pipelines mostly went down on schedules we could work around.

Refineries hate it when they can't get fed crude (or get the wrong type of crude) or can't get finished product off site. They get cranky on the morning conference calls until someone figures out a trade deal or a new way to transport them what they want.
 
denverpilot said:
Totally incorrect, depending on the company and the State.

There are common carrier pipelines, and private, and sometimes they're owned by the production company, sometimes by a transport company, sometimes by the refinery, and sometimes all of those are the same company.

Some misguided States force pipelines to be common carrier or they won't permit them. Notably, California and the west coast play this game a lot. Mostly it just complicated feeding refineries crude when I was out there working in that biz.

Everywhere else had multiple ways to get both unfinished and finished product around. When limited common carrier pipelines in Calif went down for maintenance or outages, all the refineries weren't long until they were into starvation mode. And people paid dearly for it at the pump, a short while after all the traders freaked out in our trading room.

All thanks to their government saving them from competition. LOL.

Finished product pipelines are rarer out west than crude pipelines however. Most finished stuff went out of the plant on trucks.

The real fun is when weather makes the crude tankers anchor up off shore and all those delivery dates get hosed. It takes months to straighten all the aftershocks of that out. Much bigger problem than most pipeline problems. Pipelines mostly went down on schedules we could work around.

Refineries hate it when they can't get fed crude (or get the wrong type of crude) or can't get finished product off site. They get cranky on the morning conference calls until someone figures out a trade deal or a new way to transport them what they want.
Click to expand...
Here is one that is its own company, doesn't own most of the product it pumps.
http://www.bp.com/en_us/bp-us/what-...pipelines-and-terminals/olympic-pipeline.html
BP is the holding company. but they pump from 4 refineries shell included. Many of the large oil companies own the pipe, but pump each other's product.
 
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Tom-D said:
Here is one that is its own company, doesn't own most of the product it pumps.
http://www.bp.com/en_us/bp-us/what-...pipelines-and-terminals/olympic-pipeline.html
BP is the holding company. but they pump from 4 refineries shell included. Many of the large oil companies own the pipe, but pump each other's product.
Click to expand...

Which may or may not be the case in other pipelines away from the west coast obsession with common carrier rules. ;-)

Nice to see BP is taking care of the pipeline we built, after our government destroyed the Texaco/Shell merger and sold the profits overseas via the SEC ruling, though. Ha.

Can't have any big US companies, let the Brits do that. Only foreign companies are allowed to be that big!

The real shame was destroying one of the best known brand names in the world in the process though... I still have all of my Texaco airplanes around here somewhere. Don't think I'll be buying any BP collectibles for the knicknack shelves. Yellow and green are ugly. Hahahaha.
 
Just get some old Amoco stuff. My dad was an Amoco guy and got absorbed into BP. That's why you always buy diesel from BP. Cuz my dad made it for you. :)
 
NealRomeoGolf said:
Just get some old Amoco stuff. My dad was an Amoco guy and got absorbed into BP. That's why you always buy diesel from BP. Cuz my dad made it for you. :)
Click to expand...

Everything got "absorbed" by BP. LOL.

Not sure what any of this has to do with trying to get tiny quantities of non-corn-juiced gasoline for use in airplanes, but Tom brought it up.

The US government sure screwed that industry up. Couldn't allow a "big evil oil company" to exist -- just let one from somewhere else buy up all the smaller ones. Haha. Then they whine about BP. Wasn't a person in the biz who couldn't have told you BP's safety record was worse than nearly everyone else's. They've always been a "bean counter" culture company.

Anyway, I'm still using one of those Amoco key chains that comes apart for one of the vehicles. That thing is ancient. Ha. Whoever they had make that little schwag freebie back in the day, made them to last, that's for sure. The Amoco logo is nearly gone and it was under plastic that's still in place. Amazing that thing.
 
denverpilot said:
Everything got "absorbed" by BP. LOL.

Not sure what any of this has to do with trying to get tiny quantities of non-corn-juiced gasoline for use in airplanes, but Tom brought it up.
Click to expand...
Nope.... read post #19, you'll notice my post was a response.

But Like I said Olympic pipe line is a company that owns the pipe, BP does nothing but collect the money, the pipe is maintained on contract by Western Pacific Maintenance. Olympic pipe doesn't own a drop of product in the pipe.

And Yes every state and every pipe line could be different.
If you want untreated auto fuel buy in bilk at the refinery, smallest unit. most will sell is a truck load, that could vary from 2-10,000 gallons. but you would be required to order thru the distributor, the refinery is not set up to do public sales.
Our local co-op, buys from the distributor "Reisner oil" in Anacortes Wa. then picks it up at the refinery. then sells it as farm fuel at a special pump at 3 different stores.
Several marinas also have the same agreement with "Reisner oil' and hire independent truckers to deliver.
There are a couple ways to buy unleaded alcohol free no road tax fuel around here.
 
denverpilot said:
The US government sure screwed that industry up. Couldn't allow a "big evil oil company" to exist -- just let one from somewhere else buy up all the smaller ones. Haha.
Click to expand...
That happened way hell of a long time ago, when the monopoly laws came to be and broke up Standard oil. the Brits don't have those laws.
 
Tom-D said:
Nope.... read post #19, you'll notice my post was a response.

But Like I said Olympic pipe line is a company that owns the pipe, BP does nothing but collect the money, the pipe is maintained on contract by Western Pacific Maintenance. Olympic pipe doesn't own a drop of product in the pipe.

And Yes every state and every pipe line could be different.
If you want untreated auto fuel buy in bilk at the refinery, smallest unit. most will sell is a truck load, that could vary from 2-10,000 gallons. but you would be required to order thru the distributor, the refinery is not set up to do public sales.
Our local co-op, buys from the distributor "Reisner oil" in Anacortes Wa. then picks it up at the refinery. then sells it as farm fuel at a special pump at 3 different stores.
Several marinas also have the same agreement with "Reisner oil' and hire independent truckers to deliver.
There are a couple ways to buy unleaded alcohol free no road tax fuel around here.
Click to expand...

So the general jist is, for pilots anyway: In many places, it's a total pain in the ass to find and use ethanol free mogas. Which pretty much covers it. Ha.

Tom-D said:
That happened way hell of a long time ago, when the monopoly laws came to be and broke up Standard oil. the Brits don't have those laws.
Click to expand...

True, true.
 
denverpilot said:
So the general jist is, for pilots anyway: In many places, it's a total pain in the ass to find and use ethanol free mogas. Which pretty much covers it.
Click to expand...
The biggest PITA is the handling /carrying/ storing it.
One of my customers has a "fuel Caddy" that works pretty good . But how much fuel do you have to use to off set the cost of one of those?
 
Tom-D said:
The biggest PITA is the handling /carrying/ storing it.
One of my customers has a "fuel Caddy" that works pretty good . But how much fuel do you have to use to off set the cost of one of those?
Click to expand...

Falls under the "pain in the ass" category for me. We have a fuel trailer. We never use it. It holds only 20 gallons more than the airplane holds. We'd have to drive it 25 miles one-way to a place to get mogas in that quantity.

By the time you factor in time and whatnot... Nope. One of the co-owners owns it. It's about as useless as tits on a boar. He did a nice job building it. It sits unused.
 
Don't get me started on this. I get so angry at the situation, I could scream.

In Iowa, source of the corn pollution, I had no problem buying unpolluted mogas. Here in Texas, source of so much oil, we have to drive an hour inland, to tiny Odem, TX, where the farmers co-op sells bright yellow unpolluted mogas.

I have installed a 100 gallon transfer tank in my truck. We use it to fuel out '52 Pontiac (mixed with 25% avgas, to give it the lead it needs), and we also use it exclusively in our lawn equipment. Since starting this practice, I no longer have to replace this equipment annually.

Ironically, I haven't used mogas in the plane since I installed electronic ignition last spring. The O-360 runs a wee bit hotter now, thanks to the hotter spark, and I'm waiting for temps to come down out of the 90s before trying mogas (which runs hotter than avgas, or so I've been told) in my RV.

This whole fuel issue is soooo ridiculously frustrating. It, along with ADS-B and healthcare, are the examples of failure I use to show my kids how messed up our government is.
 
Jay Honeck said:
Don't get me started on this. I get so angry at the situation, I could scream.

In Iowa, source of the corn pollution, I had no problem buying unpolluted mogas. Here in Texas, source of so much oil, we have to drive an hour inland, to tiny Odem, TX, where the farmers co-op sells bright yellow unpolluted mogas.

I have installed a 100 gallon transfer tank in my truck. We use it to fuel out '52 Pontiac (mixed with 25% avgas, to give it the lead it needs), and we also use it exclusively in our lawn equipment. Since starting this practice, I no longer have to replace this equipment annually.

Ironically, I haven't used mogas in the plane since I installed electronic ignition last spring. The O-360 runs a wee bit hotter now, thanks to the hotter spark, and I'm waiting for temps to come down out of the 90s before trying mogas (which runs hotter than avgas, or so I've been told) in my RV.

This whole fuel issue is soooo ridiculously frustrating. It, along with ADS-B and healthcare, are the examples of failure I use to show my kids how messed up our government is.
Click to expand...
Add to that list of miseries the A&P-IA population working as independent Freelanced mechanics are becoming fewer and fewer. you'll soon have no choice but to go to the FBOs and get raped on charges.
Brian, Al. and I are the three A&P-IAs working locally, Brian is quitting, Al has cancer, and I'm semi-retired not taking new customers. and my PMI says that his list of renewals is half of what it was 4 years ago.
If this industry is going to survive, there must be some major changes. aircraft numbers are down, pilot population is dwindling, mechanics are afraid of the liability. lots of things are effecting the industry and not for the good.
 
denverpilot said:
Falls under the "pain in the ass" category for me. We have a fuel trailer. We never use it. It holds only 20 gallons more than the airplane holds. We'd have to drive it 25 miles one-way to a place to get mogas in that quantity.

By the time you factor in time and whatnot... Nope. One of the co-owners owns it. It's about as useless as tits on a boar. He did a nice job building it. It sits unused.
Click to expand...
To me the use of auto unleaded is a useless effort, auto fuel is not the end all of engine problems. It's simply a different list of problems. When you learn to manage fuel usage properly your engine will go to TBO with the same amount of maintenance on either fuel. the problems we've already talked about are reason enough to simply use 100LL
 
Swift fuels is rolling out their UL94 gas. there are already six airports in WI that carry the stuff. It is fully compliant with the old 80/87 standard and the petersen STC. Keep an eye out for it coming to your neck of the woods.

https://swiftfuels.com/ul94-map/
 
vontresc said:
Swift fuels is rolling out their UL94 gas. there are already six airports in WI that carry the stuff. It is fully compliant with the old 80/87 standard and the petersen STC. Keep an eye out for it coming to your neck of the woods.

https://swiftfuels.com/ul94-map/
Click to expand...

How did they convince the airports to install extra tankage for it?

That's always the problem with mogas -- airports are terrified of dealing with EPA et al, for adding new tanks. Especially underground.

The only airport that dedicated a tank to mogas around here, reportedly drained it and stopped offering it, when the busy LSA training company picked up their marbles and went to a different airport.
 
The places around here that are doing swift used to have Mogas.
 
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