Mogas, how big the delta

Mogas, at what delta would you fly E0?

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Morgan3820

Morgan3820

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Given the current delta between E0 (where available) and avgas at about $1.5/gallon. At what delta will you start to use E0?
The FAA et. al. is working on a new unleaded avgas, which I feel will have to cost more than the current avgas. When will the price difference alter your fuel choice.
 
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Morgan3820 said:
Given the current delta between E0 (where available) and avgas at about $1.5/gallon. At what delta will you start to use E0?
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It's not the price delta, its availability. E0 is rare...if it becomes national, then you still have to bring it to the airfield. Would be nice if FBOs would stock 91E10, or 91E0...I would use it even if it was the same price at 100LL.
 
CTLSi said:
It's not the price delta, its availability. E0 is rare...if it becomes national, then you still have to bring it to the airfield. Would be nice if FBOs would stock 91E10, or 91E0...I would use it even if it was the same price at 100LL.
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Perhaps where you are. I have six near options to buy E0.
 
You also need to factor in the hassle of hauling the mogas to your airplane. Even though E0 is available in my area and I can legally burn it in my experimental, the hassle of transporting it just isn't worth it for me.
 
Go big or go home.

fuel_tank.JPG
 
I use it when I can. I transport to the airport sometimes. Don't make a big deal about it, but prefer it to avgas even at a zero price point. My engine runs a bit cooler and much cleaner with mogas.
 
CTLSi said:
It's not the price delta, its availability. E0 is rare...if it becomes national, then you still have to bring it to the airfield. Would be nice if FBOs would stock 91E10, or 91E0...I would use it even if it was the same price at 100LL.
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Absolutely this. Otherwise I'd already have done the stc.
 
I used MoGas prior to my recent engine overhaul. During the warranty period on my overhaul I have to use 100LL or it voids my warranty. We will see what things are looking like when my warranty runs out.
 
I'm slowly switching over. I don't know of any local airports that have mogas on field, so I'm trucking it to the hangar.

Advantage: the engine in my 35 was built for 88UL - 100LL just adds led that I don't need.
 
It's not just price. 100LL has four times the lead that my engine was designed for. I don't fly that much to make the price difference significant, but I prefer not to give it a constant overdose of lead.

Ron Wanttaja
 
If I can find mogas nearby, I would put a buddy tank in my truck or find a fuel trailer like in the previous picture at these prices now.

At 13GPH, I would love saving $19.50 every 60 minutes.

At ~$20/hr., that would pay for a tank, hose, pump, and whatever pretty quick.:)
 
why not a delta of 0 all things being equal? As the poster paraphrased above... lead sucks if you don't need it.
 
brian];1539188 said:
I'm slowly switching over. I don't know of any local airports that have mogas on field, so I'm trucking it to the hangar.

Advantage: the engine in my 35 was built for 88UL - 100LL just adds led that I don't need.
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Sorry to be a nudge, but your engine was made for an octane rating more closely related to 80 MON(when lean), or 87 AKI(when rich). You can safely use any common grade of mogas, including 87, but I would not want to use a non-eth blend found in CO and other high altitude states which rate at about 85 MON, although it might be fine.

I've been using 87(regular) in Bonanzas for 12 years with no adverse issues.

<edit: KFYV sells mogas from self serve. I've bought plenty there. It's on the SE side of the airport.>
 
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docmirror said:
Sorry to be a nudge, but your engine was made for an octane rating more closely related to 80 MON(when lean), or 87 AKI(when rich). You can safely use any common grade of mogas, including 87, but I would not want to use a non-eth blend found in CO and other high altitude states which rate at about 85 MON, although it might be fine.

I've been using 87(regular) in Bonanzas for 12 years with no adverse issues.

<edit: KFYV sells mogas from self serve. I've bought plenty there. It's on the SE side of the airport.>
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Thanks for the comments. I did run through this once on Beechtalk - the different rating systems makes my head spin. Like you, I finally settled on 87UL - available at a local gas station on the way to my hangar :)

Didn't know KFYV had mogas on field. I often fly over drake field, but usually on the way to somewhere else. Unfortunately, the field is about 45 minutes away - grrr..
 
brian];1539188 said:
Advantage: the engine in my 35 was built for 88UL - 100LL just adds led that I don't need.
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Slight correction, I believe your engine was designed to burn 80 octane leaded...not unleaded. 100LL still has lead you don't need though because it has three to four times the amount of lead that the old 80 octane had. That's one of the reasons why I run a 3/1 blend in my plane.

docmirror said:
<edit: KFYV sells mogas from self serve. I've bought plenty there. It's on the SE side of the airport.>
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I think you meant NE side...

Turn north after you pass the Wings Avionics hanger and proceed about 150 yards towards the gate.

About the only thing on the SE side of the field is the river.
 
I'm laughing because I know of one airport whose hangar lease says you can't use mogas even if you have an STC. Guess they want to preserve their Avgas sales. Totally unenforceable and I don't want to get into the politics of it but I only which 0eth Mogas were available enough to be a threat to 100LL
 
CTLSi said:
It's not the price delta, its availability. E0 is rare...if it becomes national, then you still have to bring it to the airfield. Would be nice if FBOs would stock 91E10, or 91E0...I would use it even if it was the same price at 100LL.
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Every marina around here sells it. I believe the holdup is that FBOs don't want to deal with it, and that avgas makers provide a large liability umbrella that mogas makers don't.

I suspect the best way to get mogas at the airport is to form a cooperative and install a self service pump. If you have to pay a per gallon fee to the airport operator or owner, so be it.
 
FormerHangie said:
I suspect the best way to get mogas at the airport is to form a cooperative and install a self service pump. If you have to pay a per gallon fee to the airport operator or owner, so be it.
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You don't want to even contemplate what this costs in most states. One would think that in TX it would be a fairly simple operation. But no - I looked into it at a private airport near me so that I could have and sell mogas from the airport. The costs involved were - staggering.

As an alternative, one could buy a fuel truck and dispense from the truck. Then, you need a commercial operators permit, with the fuel rider which is also outragiously expensive due to the liability required.

Like most, I finally found a gas tank off an old truck, and cleaned it then installed a pump and I haul it around to xfer fuel. This is what many of us are reduced to so that we can run mogas in our planes. Or - go way out of our way to get it from an airport, defeating the value of the lower price.
 
docmirror said:
You don't want to even contemplate what this costs in most states. One would think that in TX it would be a fairly simple operation. But no - I looked into it at a private airport near me so that I could have and sell mogas from the airport. The costs involved were - staggering.

As an alternative, one could buy a fuel truck and dispense from the truck. Then, you need a commercial operators permit, with the fuel rider which is also outragiously expensive due to the liability required.

Like most, I finally found a gas tank off an old truck, and cleaned it then installed a pump and I haul it around to xfer fuel. This is what many of us are reduced to so that we can run mogas in our planes. Or - go way out of our way to get it from an airport, defeating the value of the lower price.
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Depends on how many people would buy mogas and how much business you would attract to sell more. I like the coop idea, and have seen many do it with great success and good cost savings.
 
Geico266 said:
Depends on how many people would buy mogas and how much business you would attract to sell more. I like the coop idea, and have seen many do it with great success and good cost savings.
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Sounds good. So the coop built an entirely new fueling station at an airport? If so, I would be interested to hear what it cost in your state.
 
docmirror said:
Sounds good. So the coop built an entirely new fueling station at an airport? If so, I would be interested to hear what it cost in your state.
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The units slide off the back of a truck, pretty simple. All they need is a phone line and 220v. They are self contained. Many airports have them, no construction needed except for phone and power.

They do it in Texas also. Pecan Plantation is a good example. The fuel system is owned by the association. Members use it and are billed monthly.
 
I filled my five 5-gal cans for $3.70 a gal. The lowest price at the any of the near by fields is $4.85. That's 1.15/gal or 5.75 every time I lift one of the cans to the wing. That assumes that I would fly out to that field everytime I needed fuel and not get the over $7/gal at the home field. I'm happy with my set up but may get an electric pump in a few years.
 
Geico266 said:
The units slide off the back of a truck, pretty simple. All they need is a phone line and 220v. They are self contained. Many airports have them, no construction needed except for phone and power.

They do it in Texas also. Pecan Plantation is a good example. The fuel system is owned by the association. Members use it and are billed monthly.
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Interesting. KWEA put one of those in about a year ago, and the costs were - fabulous. They had to put in a new concrete pad, then they had to have a spill berm, also had to put in perimeter posts, and a special grounding system. Plus some stuff I can't remember. It was definitely not 'slide off the truck and plug it in'.
 
Morgan3820 said:
Given the current delta between E0 (where available) and avgas at about $1.5/gallon. At what delta will you start to use E0?
The FAA et. al. is working on a new unleaded avgas, which I feel will have to cost more than the current avgas. When will the price difference alter your fuel choice.
Click to expand...

As others have stated, I'd use Mogas in a heartbeat even at the same price. I've flown to exactly one airport in my life that actually sold it, though (as far as I'm aware).
 
Geico266 said:
Nope. 91 octane is just fine. That is what I burn.
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:yeahthat:

If your engine was orinally designed to burn the old 80 octane aviation fuel...that was almost the exact same formulation as the old 87 octane leaded MoGas. The octane scales for Aviation and MoGas are not the same hence the 7 point difference in octane levels.

100LL is close to 110 octane in MoGas terms.
 
I can buy 87 octane car gas for $3.80 and 91 octane for $4.05 per gallon.

I have no AVgas at my airport, so I have to fly 20 miles for 100LL. At $5.80-$6.20.


Needless to say, the $2 per gallon times 12-13 GPh pays off fairly quickly the expense I have in 5 gallon cans and my time.

The time isn't bad, allows me to dink around the plane, pre-flight, clean windshield, etc while cans are self-draining into the tanks. I don't think the time is nearly as much as flying to another airport and drinking around with the self serve pump. I can drive to my plane, so effort is minimal.
 
timwinters said:
:yeahthat:

If your engine was orinally designed to burn the old 80 octane aviation fuel...that was almost the exact same formulation as the old 87 octane leaded MoGas. The octane scales for Aviation and MoGas are not the same hence the 7 point difference in octane levels.

100LL is close to 110 octane in MoGas terms.
Click to expand...

Two ratings are applied to Avgas (the lean mixture rating and the rich mixture rating) which results in a multiple numbering system e.g. Avgas 100/130 (in this case the lean mixture performance rating is 100 and the rich mixture rating is 130).

Currently the two major grades in use internationally are Avgas 100LL and Avgas 100.

Very recently a new Avgas grade 82 UL (UL standing for unleaded) has been introduced. This is a low octane grade suitable for low compression engines. It is particularly applicable to those aircraft which have STCs to use automotive gasoline.
 
docmirror said:
Interesting. KWEA put one of those in about a year ago, and the costs were - fabulous. They had to put in a new concrete pad, then they had to have a spill berm, also had to put in perimeter posts, and a special grounding system. Plus some stuff I can't remember. It was definitely not 'slide off the truck and plug it in'.
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Then they bought the wrong one. You need to get to OSH more often and talk to the vendors that supply the slide off versions. No containment system needed, it is built into the rig.

Pecan Plantation split the costs between 75 association members. They amortized the cost of the equipment over X number of years. Now it is just maintenance, electric cost, plus fuel. Cheap gas for an entire airpark. No reason why this couldn't be repeated else where.

If you look for positives in any situation you will be more successful in finding solutions. ;)
 
Geico266 said:
Then they bought the wrong one. You need to get to OSH more often and talk to the vendors that supply the slide off versions. No containment system needed, it is built into the rig.

Pecan Plantation split the costs between 75 association members. They amortized the cost of the equipment over X number of years. Now it is just cost plus fuel. Cheap gas for an entire airpark.

If you look for positives in any situation you will be more successful in finding solutions. ;)
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Got a model or vendor? More than 'go to OSH'?
 
My problem isn't really the price of mogas, it is the availability. The few locations that sell the stuff around here want almost as much as avgas. It ain't worth the hassle of transporting it and manually pouring it in the high wing. Now if my home-drome had it, that would be a different story. Or if I could buy it cheaply enough that a contraption such as Geico's would make it worth while, then I might go for it. But logistically, it is a non-starter around here.
 
Delta here is about 4 bucks a gallon.....

No brainer for sure...:wink2:
 
Not many airports around me sell mogas. However there is a station near me that sells ethanol free 91 octane. I fill up two 5 gallon cans every time I head to the airport and that keeps me pretty close to topped off. 91 ethanol free is about $4.20/gal and 100LL at my airport is about $5.75/gal. Not a huge cost savings but anything helps.
 
Look at getting a portable fuel trailer to more easily transport locally sourced fuel from a gas station with the blend you run. Then transport it to you hangar and keep your plane fueled. This way you don't have to rely on an industry change and instead can take care of it yourself.
 
I've always been surprised there hasn't been more inroads to sell mogas at atleast the smaller airports. We used to have an 80 pump/tank at VKX. When they finally decided it was just not practical to get 80 anymore (the closest rail terminal that was willing to accept a tanker car full of leaded fuel kept getting further and further away), I suggested to dave he put mogas in the 80 pump. He wouldn't do it.

Now with racked above ground dispensors, it would seem rather straight forward except I think that the distributors will locked the doors if they find out you want the fuel delivered to an airport.

I still have visions of an Circle-K or some similar minimart on the field with car pumps on one side and aviation fuel / mogas for planes sold out the other.
 
Keith Kittoe said:
Look at getting a portable fuel trailer to more easily transport locally sourced fuel from a gas station with the blend you run. Then transport it to you hangar and keep your plane fueled. This way you don't have to rely on an industry change and instead can take care of it yourself.
Click to expand...

I built an all aluminum fuel trailer with a DOT approve 100 gallon fuel tank and battery powered fuel pump. I also have a static reel on it. I get 91E10 for $3.70 a gallon.
 
Keith Kittoe said:
Look at getting a portable fuel trailer to more easily transport locally sourced fuel from a gas station with the blend you run. Then transport it to you hangar and keep your plane fueled. This way you don't have to rely on an industry change and instead can take care of it yourself.
Click to expand...

A few things to ponder:

* It'd be advisable to ensure your airport will allow a fuel trailer to be parked in the hangar before spending >$1,000 (and probably >$1,500) on a trailer/tank set up.

* One can't haul over 119 gallons down the road without an approved tank/trailer & permit. I think that's the federal maximum, some states may have lower maximums. Geico's set up appears to be capable of carrying more...

* If you can't stand using 5 gallon cans (like I use) and, if you drive a truck, then an in-bed transfer tank would likely be the best, most affordable, set-up. An 80 gallon tank with a pump can be had for about $750 on sale at my local farm store (gasoline approved).

* I know a guy with an in-bed tank and he has lengthened the hose with a quick connect set-up because he flies a high wing. It works well and he leaves the extra hose in his hangar since he doesn't need it on his farm (he uses 0E out of this tank in all his gas powered farm equipment too).

* It's a rare airport (I think) that will have self-fueling prohibitions in place if the fuel tanks stays in the truck, and you fuel your plane outside of your hangar.

* Make sure both the tank and pump are approved for gas and not just diesel. Many tanks and pumps are clearly labeled "Not for use with gasoline. Cannot be used to transfer gasoline ." Some are labeled thus but but not so clearly...it's buried somewhere in the paperwork/manuals.

FWIW. I personally don't have an issue using 5 gallon cans. I typically do a post-flight inspection of the plane and clean the bugs off of the leading edges. The tanks are full by the time these chores are done unless I've flown the tanks almost empty. I usually have around 50 gallons of MoGas and 10 Gallons of 100LL in my hangar. My airport allows fuel storage in hangars IF it's in approved containers. Time wise, it's far quicker than stopping at the pumps, filling up, then pulling down to the hangar and going thru my post-flight routing. By the time you add the time it takes to fill the 5 gallon tanks (when I'm at the station filling the truck with gas anyway), it's probably a wash.

Of course the very first thing to ponder is the availability of 0E (present and future) on the street in your area.
 
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