MOA Question

david0tey

david0tey

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I am flying from VA to SC tomorrow and have a question regarding the Seymour Johnson Echo MOA. I would prefer not to have to circle it altogether because of how big it is. I am planning on getting vfr FF but don't want them to say I can't enter. I realize you don't need a clearance to enter an MOA but can they request that you don't? I don't want to turn a 3 hour trip into 4. What would you do?
 
You fly thru it. VFR aircraft are not restricted from entering the MOA, only IFR. Even then, based on the controller's traffic and the LOAs they have, they can let you fly thru IFR while active.

They might terminate you prior to entry though. It happens on occasion.
 
Yep, you can legally fly through it, but realize the increased risk you take if it's hot.
 
same thing you do with any airspace in your flightplan, you research it? I have an old sectional but if I look at it it specifies the altitude and day/time it's active. in this case it says it's only active mon-fri. so, u got that, and also you can always ask if it's active before entering if you're not sure.
 
If you're on flight following, it is highly likely that the controller that you're talking to will advise you of any traffic. I have never even considered going around an MOA even when they're hot. In my experience (which is admittedly not m much) it is a complete non-issue, and when doing it on FF the controller was very helpful in letting me know where the training was taking place.
 
I now see that it's not active on weekends and the floor is at 7000. I've been using foreflight for so long that I forgot about the sectional legend!
 
http://seeandavoid.org/

Someone posted this website the last time we talked MOAs. I like it.

Long time ago while doing my VFR PPL training, my instructor and I went flying in an active MOA. While heading out to the training area an F-16 broke right in front of us about a mile out. My instructor thought it was unusual but I told him it's just the MOAs were hot. Since I just worked them earlier in the day as a controller, I knew the times without even looking at the NOTAM. My instructor took the controls and said that weren't allowed to fly in an active MOA. I just kept my mouth shut and didn't argue with him but yes, we were allowed to fly VFR in a MOA. Worked many an aircraft on position giving FF thru a MOA.
 
Velocity173 said:
You fly thru it. VFR aircraft are not restricted from entering the MOA, only IFR. Even then, based on the controller's traffic and the LOAs they have, they can let you fly thru IFR while active.

They might terminate you prior to entry though. It happens on occasion.
Click to expand...

I was flying IFR into a hot MOA. They made me drop down to a much lower altitude where I shook a couple of my fillings loose. In hindsight, I wish I would have cancelled and gone vfr.
 
darrell said:
If you're on flight following, it is highly likely that the controller that you're talking to will advise you of any traffic. I have never even considered going around an MOA even when they're hot. In my experience (which is admittedly not m much) it is a complete non-issue, and when doing it on FF the controller was very helpful in letting me know where the training was taking place.
Click to expand...
But as someone else said, you may have to choose between flight following and going through the MOA. I've been told in no uncertain terms that unless I turned away from my present course, they were going to drop me. I think it all depends on the facility and their letters of agreement with the MOA's controlling authority.
 
Steve Job said:
One of the seminars I attended at Oshkosh this year covered this very subject. According to the presenter (Air Force guy), the military tries very hard to keep http://www.seeandavoid.org current and correct.
Click to expand...

let me ask this, since this is the first time I'm looking at this website, but if I select the 'midair collision' option, I don't see the recent one listed, I think it was near myrtle beach or charleston.
 
david0tey said:
I am flying from VA to SC tomorrow and have a question regarding the Seymour Johnson Echo MOA. I would prefer not to have to circle it altogether because of how big it is. I am planning on getting vfr FF but don't want them to say I can't enter. I realize you don't need a clearance to enter an MOA but can they request that you don't? I don't want to turn a 3 hour trip into 4. What would you do?
Click to expand...

If I wanted to fly through it I'd fly through it. If I wanted to fly through it and ATC requested that I not fly through it I'd respond "Request denied" and fly through it.
 
azure said:
But as someone else said, you may have to choose between flight following and going through the MOA. I've been told in no uncertain terms that unless I turned away from my present course, they were going to drop me. I think it all depends on the facility and their letters of agreement with the MOA's controlling authority.
Click to expand...

There are no letters of agreement between ATC facilities and MOA controlling agencies as the controlling agency of a MOA is ATC. The military is the Using Agency. When you've been told in no uncertain terms that unless you turned away from your present course you would be dropped from flight following the controller was likely just a d!ckhead.
 
eman1200 said:
let me ask this, since this is the first time I'm looking at this website, but if I select the 'midair collision' option, I don't see the recent one listed, I think it was near myrtle beach or charleston.
Click to expand...

I don't know about the currency of the midair collision mapping. The emphasis was on airspace status. (Cold, Hot, or Pending)
 
roncachamp said:
There are no letters of agreement between ATC facilities and MOA controlling agencies as the controlling agency of a MOA is ATC. The military is the Using Agency. When you've been told in no uncertain terms that unless you turned away from your present course you would be dropped from flight following the controller was likely just a d!ckhead.
Click to expand...
Well, in the case I'm thinking of I was talking to Saginaw Approach, the MOA was Steelhead. The controlling agency for Steelhead is Cleveland Center. Are you saying that MBS requires no authorization from ZOB to work traffic through Steelhead?
 
azure said:
Well, in the case I'm thinking of I was talking to Saginaw Approach, the MOA was Steelhead. The controlling agency for Steelhead is Cleveland Center. Are you saying that MBS requires no authorization from ZOB to work traffic through Steelhead?
Click to expand...

Minneapolis ARTCC is the Controlling Agency of Steelhead MOA, the MOA crosses the boundary between ZMP and ZOB. MBS requires no authorization from ZOB or ZMP to work VFR traffic in Steelhead MOA.
 
david0tey said:
I now see that it's not active on weekends and the floor is at 7000. I've been using foreflight for so long that I forgot about the sectional legend!
Click to expand...

Also, if you click on the MOA in the map view, it should give you the same info.
 
roncachamp said:
Minneapolis ARTCC is the Controlling Agency of Steelhead MOA, the MOA crosses the boundary between ZMP and ZOB.
Click to expand...
Yes it does, and there seems to be conflicting information on this. ForeFlight does say ZMP, but seeandavoid.org says it's ZOB. I no longer have any paper sectionals, but I'm pretty sure the Detroit sectional used to say ZOB. I'm not sure which source should be considered authoritative but I thought seeandavoid was run by the FAA now. Did the controlling agency change at some point?
 
Steve Job said:
One of the seminars I attended at Oshkosh this year covered this very subject. According to the presenter (Air Force guy), the military tries very hard to keep http://www.seeandavoid.org current and correct.
Click to expand...

Good site to find out when it is actually being used. The published hours just tell when it might be used. It would be nice if we could get what the actual use is. I might make a different decision to fly through or not depending on if it's some kind of Blimp practice or 'supersonic multiplane aerobatic fly by remote practice' (yeah, i know, extreme examples.) They said they can't do that because they don't want the bad guys (commie pinko's or whatever todays version is) to know what they are up to. At least you don't have to be worried about getting picked off by bullets and missles and stuff like that you can't see, that stuff has to be done in Restricted Areas.
 
azure said:
ForeFlight does say ... I no longer have any paper sectionals
Click to expand...

Foreflight allows you to view MOA info etc as they appear on the legends of the paper sectionals. To see them, select Settings and Map Touch Action.
https://support.foreflight.com/hc/en-us/articles/206419437-Why-is-there-a-chart-legend-on-the-map-

Map_Legend.png
 
Last edited:
azure said:
Yes it does, and there seems to be conflicting information on this. ForeFlight does say ZMP, but seeandavoid.org says it's ZOB. I no longer have any paper sectionals, but I'm pretty sure the Detroit sectional used to say ZOB. I'm not sure which source should be considered authoritative but I thought seeandavoid was run by the FAA now. Did the controlling agency change at some point?
Click to expand...


Snippet from current Detroit Sectional.

I would consider the following source to be authoritative, it indicates the controlling agency was changed over six years ago.

From FAA Order JO 7400.8X Special Use Airspace:

Steelhead MOA, MI
Boundaries. Beginning at lat. 43°26'00"N., long. 82°44'00"W.; to lat. 43°38'30"N., long. 83°32'00"W.; to lat. 44°17'20"N., long. 83°43'00"W.; to lat. 44°17'00"N., long. 83°27'00"W.; to lat. 43°53'15"N., long. 82°11'18"W.; to lat. 43°35'28"N., long. 82°07'22"W.; to lat. 43°33'54"N., long. 82°08'10"W.; to the point of beginning.
Altitudes. 6,000 MSL to but not including FL 180.
Time of use. 0700 to 1800, Monday through Saturday, other times by NOTAM.
Controlling Agency. FAA, Minneapolis ARTCC.
Using Agency. U. S. Air Force, Alpena Combat Readiness Training Center (CRTC), Alpena, MI.

CONTROLLING AGENCY CHANGED 1/15/09
 
roncachamp said:
CONTROLLING AGENCY CHANGED 1/15/09
Click to expand...
Thanks - seems seeandavoid's info (and mine) was out of date. Odd for a website with FAA connections, given how long ago that was. Me, I've not flown up that way since 8/08.
 
kgruber said:
I suspect you are safer from a mid-air collision while inside a MOA.
Click to expand...

Interesting take on it. No IFR traffic and probably less VFR traffic because a lot of us elect to just go around. The military seems to do a pretty good job of monitoring whats going on around their airplanes. But then there was that F16 tailpiping a bug smasher a few months ago. I don't remember if that was in a MOA or on an IR or VR route. Those are in seeandavoid also.
 
NoHeat said:
Foreflight allows you to view MOA info etc as they appear on the legends of the paper sectionals. To see them, select Settings and Map Touch Action.
https://support.foreflight.com/hc/en-us/articles/206419437-Why-is-there-a-chart-legend-on-the-map-

Map_Legend.png
Click to expand...
Thanks, I thought I'd read that somewhere in the user manual but couldn't find it when I looked for it. The other way to get airspace information, of course, is to touch a spot inside the airspace for a couple seconds, then select "All" when the Add to Route dialog comes up.
 
kgruber said:
I suspect you are safer from a mid-air collision while inside a MOA.
Click to expand...

That has always been my opinion. I fly through them all the time. Rarely with FF, but when I have FF and the MOA is active they usually just advise me it's active and that's I say 'spamcan 456, roger active'.
 
I live in NC, where there are a lot of MOAs around. Since I always use FF during VFR flight, I've only once been (slightly) vectored around a MOA. 99% of the time, I sail through under the guidance of FF. I never even knew if they were hot or not... I figured ATC had me in their sights and (somewhat) in their control.

Like other folks have said,you can always cancel FF if you're hot to trot with F-15s or whatnot... but that's not my style.

Now that I'm doing my IR training, it will be interesting to see that my clearances will clear me through everything--or not.
 
david0tey said:
I am flying from VA to SC tomorrow and have a question regarding the Seymour Johnson Echo MOA. I would prefer not to have to circle it altogether because of how big it is. I am planning on getting vfr FF but don't want them to say I can't enter. I realize you don't need a clearance to enter an MOA but can they request that you don't? I don't want to turn a 3 hour trip into 4. What would you do?
Click to expand...

Just fly through it, if ATC asks, just say your VMC and will be going direct.
 
david0tey said:
I am flying from VA to SC tomorrow and have a question regarding the Seymour Johnson Echo MOA. I would prefer not to have to circle it altogether because of how big it is. I am planning on getting vfr FF but don't want them to say I can't enter. I realize you don't need a clearance to enter an MOA but can they request that you don't? I don't want to turn a 3 hour trip into 4. What would you do?
Click to expand...

You don't need permission to enter and fly thru an MOA. But if you are concerned there is a phone number associated with MOAs. Contact them as ask about traffic and activity if you are concerned.
 
david0tey said:
I now see that it's not active on weekends and the floor is at 7000. I've been using foreflight for so long that I forgot about the sectional legend!
Click to expand...

Yes, many MOAs have a floor high that's enough to easily fly under.
 
James331 said:
Just fly through it, if ATC asks, just say your VMC and will be going direct.
Click to expand...

I used to do that, but I've come to the conclusion that I want our military pilots to be well trained, and that I would rather not disrupt their training exercises.
 
As they say, "Once upon a time..." my wife and I were flying VFR southbound, with flight following, and passing (I thought) way west of the Cherry Point Marine Air Base, en-route to KILM.

CONTROLLER: "... Be advised you have extreme military activity -- I repeat, EXTREME military activity ahead on your present course. What are your intentions?"

After thinking about it for maybe one second...:yikes:

ME: "I am turning west to join V139, NOW!!!" And I did.

I have heard/read that in this situation, they'll actually suspend or divert some of the military ops to let you pass through. Dumb! I will defer to them and give them the right of way. They burn more fuel than I do... and we are paying for it. :)
 
darrell said:
If you're on flight following, it is highly likely that the controller that you're talking to will advise you of any traffic. I have never even considered going around an MOA even when they're hot. In my experience (which is admittedly not m much) it is a complete non-issue, and when doing it on FF the controller was very helpful in letting me know where the training was taking place.
Click to expand...


It's kind of like a variation on a theme to encountering IR and VR training routes. I've never found it to be an issue and Center is very good at keeping pilots abreast of what is going on.

I've even heard them do blind calls to pilots (in case they might be monitoring, even if not on FF) to advise of potential conflicts; and if they don't get a response, advise the conflicting military aircraft of the potential conflict
 
You'll be talking to Seymour-Johnson Approach if you are getting FF (or are IFR) in that MOA anyhow. I've flown through there both IFR and VFR many times. They're pretty good folks as are many of the military facilities in the are in the area. Usually they can get you through even the R areas.
 
david0tey said:
I am flying from VA to SC tomorrow and have a question regarding the Seymour Johnson Echo MOA. I would prefer not to have to circle it altogether because of how big it is. I am planning on getting vfr FF but don't want them to say I can't enter. I realize you don't need a clearance to enter an MOA but can they request that you don't? I don't want to turn a 3 hour trip into 4. What would you do?
Click to expand...


Where are you going in SC if I can ask....
 
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