Missing TSO Label

Rob58

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Rob
I recently sold an old Narco AT-150 transponder via ebay. When the buyer received the unit he advised me that the TSO label was missing and suggests that without the label the unit is not airworthy. I'm guessing the label had been missing since I purchased it from a reputable avionics shop a few years ago. What are the rules that might apply to this situation?
 
Did your auction state TSO certified or "airworthy" specifically? Did it say "as is"? Did you in any way represent or even insinuate something that could lead a reasonable person to believe that there was a TSO label on it?
 
Have him return it and you should pay for the postage. Gotta keep a good record on eBay, even if it costs you.
 
Did your auction state TSO certified or "airworthy" specifically? Did it say "as is"? Did you in any way represent or even insinuate something that could lead a reasonable person to believe that there was a TSO label on it?

It is Ebay, it doesn’t matter.
 
TSO label was missing
Usually the TSO labeling is not separate and is included in the main equipment ID label with the mfr info, model/part number, serial number, etc. Was the Narco label on the back of the unit missing? If I recall Narco used a black colored label on the back of the xspndr. Do you have any pictures from your ebay ad you can post?
 
I had no idea that there was supposed to be a "TSO" identifying label on the unit... my fault completely due to ignorance. I am perfectly fine with giving the buyer a full refund. However the unit was in perfect working order and I sold it cheap, bundled with a near-new ACK encoder so I feel badly for the guy that bought it as he will likely have to pay a lot more for the same package. Although the unit was missing the TSO label, the front panel of the Narco unit is label "Narco AT150 TSO" as shown in the picture so I would think this might serve as adequate evidence of the legality of the unit. Anyway, lesson learned!
 

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"TSO" identifying label on the unit
So the factory label on the back case is missing? Then technically your buyer's installer has a valid point regardless of what was stamped on the front. But if it was me installing it I would be more concerned it worked as mentioned above than a decal on the back. Too bad Narco went out of business then you could have contacted them for assistance even without knowing the units serial number. But as an FYI there really is no "TSO label" rather there are only specific part marking requirements for the TSOA.
 
So the factory label on the back case is missing? Then technically your buyer's installer has a valid point regardless of what was stamped on the front. But if it was me installing it I would be more concerned it worked as mentioned above than a decal on the back. Too bad Narco went out of business then you could have contacted them for assistance even without knowing the units serial number. But as an FYI there really is no "TSO label" rather there are only specific part marking requirements for the TSOA.

I agree, like who is going to pull the unit and look for a label.
 
It will only be an issue....... Never. Seriously. This is a hangar ferries job
 
like who is going to pull the unit and look for a label.
True. But just to go complete circle on this, the lack of a TSO marking does not technically make the unit unairworthy or call for its removal. There is FAA guidance on this. There is also guidance on how to re-mark a PMA or TSO part after manufacture. However, since the OP sold the unit it take this into another realm.
 
Like the man said above, there is FAA guidance on how to replace missing labels. If they guy wants to return it and you want to let him, that is fine. If he wants to install it, that can happen too. Labels are cheap to make. Is the model/serial label still on the unit? The TSO, according to the installation manual, is TSO C74c, Class1A, DAPAAAXXXXXX.

In addition, the FRONT PANEL says "TSO" right above the IDENT light.

Jim
 
True. But just to go complete circle on this, the lack of a TSO marking does not technically make the unit unairworthy or call for its removal. There is FAA guidance on this. There is also guidance on how to re-mark a PMA or TSO part after manufacture. However, since the OP sold the unit it take this into another realm.

No part number, no serial number, no mod status. Maybe the logs from the original aircraft could provide some history. Then you would have to find a shop willing to re certify it. I doubt it would be worth it in the long run.

Seat belt tags are another gotcha. I have had several components scrapped because of missing data placards.
 
find a shop willing to re certify it.
FYI: There's no FAA requirement to have the part re-certified for missing/restored markings. Nor does a missing tag or marking determine airworthiness to include your seatbelts. Now certain operational requirements found in Part 121 and some 135 ops might alter the previous statement but within GA ops and most 135 ops the above statement is valid. AC 43-213 is one of the guidance docs. FSIM 8900.1 also deals with this topic and a couple others I believe.
 
FYI: There's no FAA requirement to have the part re-certified for missing/restored markings. Nor does a missing tag or marking determine airworthiness to include your seatbelts. Now certain operational requirements found in Part 121 and some 135 ops might alter the previous statement but within GA ops and most 135 ops the above statement is valid. AC 43-213 is one of the guidance docs. FSIM 8900.1 also deals with this topic and a couple others I believe.

If the part remains in service minus a tag, it can continue in service. That fits what I have said as well. But once it is removed, it requires something to provide a specific history for installation. A seatbelt with no tso tag can be rebuilt, but is it worth it? Is an old transponder worth the trouble to make new tso tags? How would you verify what mod status the unit is? Maybe it can be done, but as I stated before, good luck finding that person or shop.

I would not be signing for the installation of a transponder "that appears to be part number xxxxxx, serial number unknown".
 
He said nothing about missing the model number or serial number tags or markings.
Well the OP never really clarified that point yet when asked. I believe Narco had one tag on the back side of the unit with all the required info to include the TSO markings. Unfortunately his only pic shows the front. Someone would have to go out of their way to remove that original label. Hence the questions about it.???
 
Someone would have to go out of their way to remove that original label.

Sometimes the labels don't stand up to normal use. Heat, moisture, lubricants, age, thermal cycles, etc can all play havoc with whatever adhesive used.
 
Well the OP never really clarified that point yet when asked. I believe Narco had one tag on the back side of the unit with all the required info to include the TSO markings. Unfortunately his only pic shows the front. Someone would have to go out of their way to remove that original label. Hence the questions about it.???
Perhaps I did not clarify the details. There was no manufacturer tag of any sort on the unit. As I said this was my fault for not recognizing the missing label or investigating the reason it was missing. I purchased the unit from a reputable avionics shop at my field in 2017 simply as a replacement to the AT-150 that was in my aircraft and no longer working. Because the avionics shop placed the yellow sticker on top of the unit it completely through me off of looking for the manufacturers tag - again of course I should have known better. Other than the certification that was performed at the time I purchased the unit, there is no historic entries in my log books regarding this specific unit. I have offered to refund the money and have already apologized to the buyer for the inconvenience. Selling the unit was not really about money - I wanted to help someone out that might have a bad unit as I know there are quite a few of these old xpdrs still out there. I really appreciate all of the comments and the different perspectives on this topic - much more feedback than I really expected.
 
If you find the need to give it away, I’ll take the transponder as a backup for the one in my C150. My AP/IA is a very reasonable guy and wouldn’t bat an eyelash at replacing a perfectly functioning unit that was just missing a sticker.

At 80+ years old, he has seen more than one sticker or tag go missing and miraculously the airplanes kept flying.
 
he has seen more than one sticker or tag go missing and miraculously the airplanes kept flying.
The only reason they flew was because there aren't any schools for handicapped children of personal injury attorneys in the area. Fly over one of those with a missing tag and a crash is guaranteed.

Sell it to a guy with a homebult. The laws of physics are different if the certificate is pink - I installed my KT-76A myself and none of the avionics guys that tested it ever pulled it out to see if there was a sticker on the back.
 
placed the yellow sticker on top of the unit
there is no historic entries in my log books regarding this specific unit
FWIW: if you still have that yellow tag and if you can procure a copy of the xspndr installation entry (though you state there is none??) perhaps you can offer this to the buyer as a concession. Be sure to mention AC 43-213 chg 1, paragraph 5(d) and 6 as your reference. I would think someone trying to keep a AT-150 system working in their aircraft would go with this. Unless his installer prefers to put in a new system for him.;)
https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/AC_43-213A_CHG_1.pdf
 
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