Misdemeanor conviction

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Stephen Brawny

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Stephen
I've recently taken an interest in flying at the age of 35. Maybe a little late in the game, but still interested nonetheless. I took my first private pilot's lesson down at the local airport and was getting ready to apply for a student pilots license.

16 years ago when I was fresh out of high school with my own apartment and still very immature and clueless, I had an incident with a party at my apartment where some friends under 18 were drinking and got caught and I was nailed with a misdemeanor corruption of minors.

Fast forward 16 years and I now have a successful career and a family. I have no aspirations of flying professionally. I just want to know if this will affect me from obtaining a private pilot's license and flying leisurely.

Thanks for any input
 
The opinion of Some Guy On The Internet (SGOTI) - Should not keep you from flying as long as this is the only thing out there.

You will report this on your medical, it's a behavioral question. The link below goes through all the questions on the medical, this incident is reported under medical history, question 18w. "The applicant must name the charge for which convicted and the date of the conviction(s), and copies of court documents (if available)." You should not need an attorney unless you want them to do the legwork of getting the court records. In fact, an attorney really can't do anything for you here except help you understand your exact legal situation. I presume from your description there was an official conviction.

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_or...ffices/aam/ame/guide/app_process/app_history/

If you want the exact correct advice, I recommend a paid consultation with the AME you intend to use so that they can be aware of the issue and potentially get it pre-cleared. A consultation is a non-medical appointment prior to the official medical where you talk about your questions and understand the path to medical certification. Otherwise, he may have to defer your medical (let the FAA decide) and you'll wait months for it to grind it's way through the medical system. Dr Fowler and Dr Chien are both senior AMEs that frequent this board, but unless you're near Atlanta(?) or Chicago, you'll probably want to work with someone local.
 
BFlynn gives good advice. If you don't have any other psychological events, it's likely to be a non-issue in the long run, but get all the documentation you can find.
 
bflynn said:
The opinion of Some Guy On The Internet (SGOTI) - Should not keep you from flying as long as this is the only thing out there.

You will report this on your medical, it's a behavioral question. The link below goes through all the questions on the medical, this incident is reported under medical history, question 18w. "The applicant must name the charge for which convicted and the date of the conviction(s), and copies of court documents (if available)." You should not need an attorney unless you want them to do the legwork of getting the court records. In fact, an attorney really can't do anything for you here except help you understand your exact legal situation. I presume from your description there was an official conviction.

https://www.faa.gov/about/office_or...ffices/aam/ame/guide/app_process/app_history/

If you want the exact correct advice, I recommend a paid consultation with the AME you intend to use so that they can be aware of the issue and potentially get it pre-cleared. A consultation is a non-medical appointment prior to the official medical where you talk about your questions and understand the path to medical certification. Otherwise, he may have to defer your medical (let the FAA decide) and you'll wait months for it to grind it's way through the medical system. Dr Fowler and Dr Chien are both senior AMEs that frequent this board, but unless you're near Atlanta(?) or Chicago, you'll probably want to work with someone local.
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Thanks for the tips. I don't feel like there should be any issues but I want to be absolutely certain before I invest the time and money into flying. I live in Pennsylvania actually do I think traveling to Atlanta or Chicago might be tough. Is there another resource for locating an AME in my area so I can ask about this in further detail? Thanks again
 
It’s shocking how many 121 pilots have records. So you should have no issue.
 
We're all human and we make mistakes. "If you've never made a mistake you're either not trying or you're lying" ... as the old saying goes.

There is always sport pilot available unless you need to fly more than a couple of people, want to fly in the clouds, or in the dark. It works well for me. I don't believe I'd have any issue with passing a medical except for the ludicrous approach the FAA has with obtaining a medical.

I believe there are truly very few people that have not had something in their past that could be tagged, bagged, & dragged through the quagmire of the FAA medical process.

Yet I also understand the position they are in and the responsibility they are taxed with in maintaining safety in the cockpit (flight deck) for pilots, passengers, and the general public.

There's got to be a better way but I don't have the answers. Perhaps that's a thread for another day.
 
Yeah, isn’t it only ‘good moral character’ at the ATP level?

I’m just joking some, seems to me you’d be O.K. without recent events or a trend.
 
I have a misdemeanor conviction, to this day I feel I was wrongly charged and convicted… it was a business disagreement- I still feel I was in the right- but that’s another story!

I won’t go for expungement as you have to say “I’m sorry I was bad and I’ve learned my lesson” and on principle I won’t lie to the court and I wasn’t in the wrong so I’m not going to lie and say I was!


I concur in the consult - I didn’t only as no one advised me to- and I’ve had zero issues with my medical. I told the DME the story when he asked and he laughed, told me a story where he could have got nailed similar and we moved on.

I don’t like even mentioning it- but want to do so to let you know it’s not likely something that means it’s a no-go for you to fly.
 
Just a random thought, you could investigate getting it expunged. Having a non-violent minor offense that probably shouldn't have been there in the first place sounds unfair to me. Not a lawyer, just a pilot. Why they're allowed to ask this question on the medical form is a separate question...1930's mindset that still hangs on today.
 
My understanding is that if something is "expunged", it "goes away" in the eyes of the court system, but NOT in the eyes of the FAA. The FAA will still consider it something that happened, and will not be happy if you fail to mention it and they find out.
 
kath said:
My understanding is that if something is "expunged", it "goes away" in the eyes of the court system, but NOT in the eyes of the FAA. The FAA will still consider it something that happened, and will not be happy if you fail to mention it and they find out.
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The FAA's viewpoint on expunction is covered in the MedXpress User Guide.

If the record of a conviction has been expunged, state the date that the record was expunged and the court that ordered the expunction.​
 
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Wow. Good to know. Sounds like FAA circumventing the law, but I suppose it's not surprising. So you'd have to included it in the medical, or have the conviction overturned or reduced to a violation. Feel sorry for the OP, almost had a similar situation apply to me. On a cynical side note, quick search of the federal employee hiring system points to a management and budget form, 0306, that only asks back 7 years on convictions, and specifically mentions that expunged convictions shouldn't be listed. So, if you were applying for a job at the FAA, you wouldn't need to list it. (Unless they think they can ignore federal hiring processes, too.)
 
Albany Tom said:
Wow. Good to know. Sounds like FAA circumventing the law, but I suppose it's not surprising....
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Rather than circumventing, my understanding is that the federal government is not bound by state laws. It probably has something to do with the supremacy clause in the U.S. Constitution.
 
If you ever apply for Global Entry or the like, the form specifically asks you to include any convictions, including expunged convictions. Ever in your life.
 
Albany Tom said:
Wow. Good to know. Sounds like FAA circumventing the law, but I suppose it's not surprising. So you'd have to included it in the medical, or have the conviction overturned or reduced to a violation. Feel sorry for the OP, almost had a similar situation apply to me. On a cynical side note, quick search of the federal employee hiring system points to a management and budget form, 0306, that only asks back 7 years on convictions, and specifically mentions that expunged convictions shouldn't be listed. So, if you were applying for a job at the FAA, you wouldn't need to list it. (Unless they think they can ignore federal hiring processes, too.)
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Actually, the law allows the government in the interest of public safety, to obtain what it needs in that interest.
 
Albany Tom said:
Wow. Good to know. Sounds like FAA circumventing the law, but I suppose it's not surprising. So you'd have to included it in the medical, or have the conviction overturned or reduced to a violation. Feel sorry for the OP, almost had a similar situation apply to me. On a cynical side note, quick search of the federal employee hiring system points to a management and budget form, 0306, that only asks back 7 years on convictions, and specifically mentions that expunged convictions shouldn't be listed. So, if you were applying for a job at the FAA, you wouldn't need to list it. (Unless they think they can ignore federal hiring processes, too.)
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Many state expunction laws contain exceptions, so it's not that simple.
 
Palmpilot said:
Rather than circumventing, my understanding is that the federal government is not bound by state laws. It probably has something to do with the supremacy clause in the U.S. Constitution.
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It's three things. First, it's the FAA recognizing the State's process for conviction, but not recognizing the same State's ability to nullify their own convictions. That, to me, is contradictory. The second is that the FAA has a different standard for airman certificates than the federal government has as part of its own hiring process. That's likely because OMB processes are kept halfway modern, while nothing has changed much with FAA medicals in 80 years. The third thing is that for new certificates, an applicant goes through a TSA background check automatically anyway, independent of any medical. There's no way to slice it and not have it be a silly and outdated requirement, and again, not surprising.

But none of the discussion matters to the OP.... Either has to have the convictions overturned or list them as required.
 
FWIW, I wrote this up a few years ago, so it might be a bit dated.

Expunction and the FAA

Here's the problem. The effect of state law expungement of a criminal conviction on a federal issue is an incredibly complex one, with zero in reliable guidance from the federal courts (this is not just an FAA issue). Add to the mix that, practically speaking, expungement affects records, not reality. Expungement doesn't mean it didn't happen. If the local paper reported it, or friend who knew talked about it on Facebook, or appears in some pre-expungement database, the information is out there and can be found.

The FAA's current viewpoint is pretty clearly reflected in the MedXpress User Guide, https://medxpress.faa.gov/medxpress/Content/Docs/MedXPressUsersGuide.pdf

*If the record of a conviction has been expunged, state the date that the record was expunged and the court that ordered the expunction.*

There have been very few cases (falsification on the medical app) which made it to the NTSB and the language is all over the place. Some suggest they might be bound by the state expunction. Others say they might not. I say "might" because the cases didn't face the issue squarely - in all of them I've read there wasn't a real expunction. At best the applicant thought the record had been expunged, but it wasn't.

A further twist is state expunction law itself. Expunction in some is not an absolute. IOW, an expunged record in some states is still available for specific purposes. examples are certain types of state employment; later offenses; perhaps ironically, to later requests for another expunction. The answer to the federal question could turn out to be different for different states.

I'm interested in the issue beyond its FAA ramifications, so I'm fairly familiar with the arguments on both sides. Heard some very heated ones - between lawyers.

No specific advice here. Just a very general one one - you don't want a medical issue to become a legal one. Before even getting to the FAA legal question of whether we are required to disclose something, there is the more important preliminary FAA medical question - the consequences of disclosure. What can we do to disclose something while getting our medical documentation together in advance to maximize our chances of passing through. That is not specific to the arrest/conviction scenario.

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Mines v. NTSB, 862 F.2d 617 (6th Cir. 1988) is the most pilot-friendly one. In that case it was a *federal* expunction of a drug conviction under the now-defunct Youth Corrections Act. The NTSB was reversed.
 
Albany Tom said:
, it's the FAA recognizing the State's process for conviction, but not recognizing the same State's ability to nullify their own convictions. That, to me, is contradictory.
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And how is it any different than the FAA's attitude on a medical diagnosis that was overturned by another physician? On that, once the diagnosis is made, it sticks, even if a later doctor says that the diagnosis was wrong.
 
Albany Tom said:
First, it's the FAA recognizing the State's process for conviction, but not recognizing the same State's ability to nullify their own convictions. That, to me, is contradictory.
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The FAA isn't trying to determine if you have a record or apply criminal sanctions. They are trying to decide whether you are fit to fly. They cast a wide net so they can dig deeper and make a decision based on all of the facts rather than based upon who can get an administrative expungement. Once they know of the conviction, they can investigate whether they think the underlying facts matter. They can't do that if they don't find out just because of an expungement.
 
wsuffa said:
And how is it any different than the FAA's attitude on a medical diagnosis that was overturned by another physician? On that, once the diagnosis is made, it sticks, even if a later doctor says that the diagnosis was wrong.
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You're right, it's the same type of thinking. A pattern that applies to the way rumors spread and old wives tales are founded, not in a way that is consistent with science or logic. And all are correct, these are the rules we have to play by.

I suppose it's fortunate that the Wright Brothers invented the airplane in the early 1900's, rather than the 1600's, or they'd be using Navy dunk tanks to see if we were possessed by evil spirits before we were issued our certificates.
 
Albany Tom said:
You're right, it's the same type of thinking. A pattern that applies to the way rumors spread and old wives tales are founded, not in a way that is consistent with science or logic. And all are correct, these are the rules we have to play by.

I suppose it's fortunate that the Wright Brothers invented the airplane in the early 1900's, rather than the 1600's, or they'd be using Navy dunk tanks to see if we were possessed by evil spirits before we were issued our certificates.
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It is particularly ridiculous given there is no good evidence that requiring a medical certificate for private pilots improves the safety of flight (some weak evidence based on HIMS that it does and evidence from sport pilots that it does not).

So in that sense all of this is much ado about something the FAA likely cannot predict with any degree of accuracy. Yet we have a huge money and time consuming bureaucracy devoted to trying to make such predictions.
 
PPC1052 said:
The FAA isn't trying to determine if you have a record or apply criminal sanctions. They are trying to decide whether you are fit to fly. They cast a wide net so they can dig deeper and make a decision based on all of the facts rather than based upon who can get an administrative expungement. Once they know of the conviction, they can investigate whether they think the underlying facts matter. They can't do that if they don't find out just because of an expungement.
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this!
 
PPC1052 said:
The FAA isn't trying to determine if you have a record or apply criminal sanctions. They are trying to decide whether you are fit to fly. They cast a wide net so they can dig deeper and make a decision based on all of the facts rather than based upon who can get an administrative expungement. Once they know of the conviction, they can investigate whether they think the underlying facts matter. They can't do that if they don't find out just because of an expungement.
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Yep. That's the justification (or excuse, depending on your point of view).

no strikeout here so I redlined "administrative" out.
 
midlifeflyer said:
no strikeout here so I redlined "administrative" out.
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Strike out is part of the Xenforo markdown, it is just “hidden”.

upload_2021-7-27_8-54-8.png
 
midlifeflyer said:
Yep. That's the justification (or excuse, depending on your point of view).

no strikeout here so I redlined "administrative" out.
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How 'bout I just delete the word from my post so it looks like you added it yourself. (And then the redline would be appropriate.)
 
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