Minimum airplane for mission

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MIFlyer

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MIFlyer
So, as i'm a student pilot and deciding on rent vs buy for the long haul, i'm trying to determine what it would take to run my "typical" mission 6x per year.

Depart KRNT (Pilot 230 lbs)
Arrive 7W1 (add two passengers at 200 and 170 lbs)
Arrive KKLs (add fourth passenger at 150 lbs)
Arrive KRNT and not be out of fuel or over useful load.

In my area, you can rent 172s, SR20's and one Cessna T210, but nothing bigger.

Can i do this mission in the SR20, making useful load work. I am willing to get more fuel in KKLS if needed, but I don't think it would be needed.

If it helps, I could also go KRNT - KKLS - 7W1 - KRNT so that I burn more fuel before I add more people.
 
Living in the PNW, you're going to want a FIKI (booted) C210 and a instrument rating from someone who actually knows what the're taking about, like Spence at ATC in KBFI, you'll want to do your instrument in the 210 so you can experience real IFR/IMC ops in ice.
 
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I second the 210. Those PAX are gonna be a tight fit in the SR-20 weight wise.
 
Would have to agree with 210 as the airplane of choice for your mission.
 
OK, so don't try to make it work on minimum fuel in an SR20. Going to the 210 as the rental option if I don't end up owning. that helps me weigh it out.

210 is $250/hr wet Tach.

Figure an Six (owned) would run me $175/hr wet tach and an Aztec owned would run me $150/hr wet tach (assuming throw away plane when engine goes). These are the variable costs, so i'd have to add all the fixed costs (tie down, insurance, maint) in to see if it would make sense to buy the bigger plane, or buy a little plane and rent the 210 when i need it.

Also to the point, owning would allow me to have a lot of familiarity in a single plane.

if it sounds like i'm trying to justify buying, you might be able to get a job on psychic hotline. :)
 
MIFlyer said:
So, as i'm a student pilot and deciding on rent vs buy for the long haul, i'm trying to determine what it would take to run my "typical" mission 6x per year.

Depart KRNT (Pilot 230 lbs)
Arrive 7W1 (add two passengers at 200 and 170 lbs)
Arrive KKLs (add fourth passenger at 150 lbs)
Arrive KRNT and not be out of fuel or over useful load.

In my area, you can rent 172s, SR20's and one Cessna T210, but nothing bigger.

Can i do this mission in the SR20, making useful load work. I am willing to get more fuel in KKLS if needed, but I don't think it would be needed.

If it helps, I could also go KRNT - KKLS - 7W1 - KRNT so that I burn more fuel before I add more people.
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For a student pilot or any pilot with out a instrument rating it is simply unrealistic in any aircraft.
This would be doable on the best days VFR, But the southern Puget Sound gets far too many foggy days, low ceilings, and high IFR traffic into and out the SEA Class B to restrictive to be a dependable method of commuting
 
For those unfamiliar, 7W1 (Port of Ilwaco) is at sea level, 2100' paved runway, trees at both ends, and often a decent sea breeze. No fuel or services there. Closest instrument approach is at Astoria, about 20 miles away.
 
You're not talking realistic options if you're not talking a ICING capable aircraft and IMC capable pilot. Real life you're also going to want a GNS430W, HSI and two axis AP with GPSS, at minimum on that panel.


Pilawt said:
For those unfamiliar, 7W1 (Port of Ilwaco) is at sea level, 2100' paved runway, trees at both ends, and often a decent sea breeze. No fuel or services there. Closest instrument approach is at Astoria, about 20 miles away.
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Doable most times of the year in a C210 with a good PIC behind the yoke.

Also you're talking 10nm not 20.
image.jpg
 
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Tom-D said:
For a student pilot or any pilot with out a instrument rating it is simply unrealistic in any aircraft.
This would be doable on the best days VFR, But the southern Puget Sound gets far too many foggy days, low ceilings, and high IFR traffic into and out the SEA Class B to restrictive to be a dependable method of commuting
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?


You might not get direct every day, but I don't see any reason why something like a booted C210 couldn't handle this 9/10 times.


Routing doesn't look that bad

image.jpg
 
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I've flown some 172s with the 180hp conversion and 2550 GW that could probably do this, at least on the better weather days. Are those weights including baggage? Too bad there aren't any 182s for rent, this is the sort of mission they're good for.

You'll definitely need an instrument rating and proficiency. Depending on the time of year, ice can be a real issue; in some cases, enough that you'd be grounded in virtually any plane that we're talking about.

By the way, you mentioned Aztec. They are twins. You'll need some time before you can work up to a twin.
 
Have you flown into Ilwaco or Kelso during your training? Could your Ilwaco passengers drive to Astoria? It's not all that far, has nice long runways, and has instrument approaches for when that time comes.

Bob Gardner
 
Hi, so I'd only do this on clear nice days. Nothing gnarly. I'll be a fairly low time PPL when i consider this the first time. Weather permitting, I'll do my long cross country on this route during training.

This would be to pick up family to come up for a football weekend, not a "commute" and would always be able to be cancelled with a call to them to say "sorry, too much fog, go ahead and drive up".

Eventually, i'd like to get instrument rated/etc.

I learned I can get a 182 for $165/hr, so that might be a whole lot more doable. It's /g, which doesn't matter since i'd only be a PPL at the start of this. I'd have to go to another school to get that though, current school has 172s and one SR20

Ideally, i'd love the justification for this one http://www.controller.com/listingsd...URBO-AZTEC/1966-PIPER-TURBO-AZTEC/1388061.htm

But I think it would cost me a lot to keep it on the tarmac. Hourly cost would be fine, it's the fixed and MX that scares me. Long term, i'd love a six seat, IFR capable plane that could haul, yanno, six humans vs. 2.5 humans and enough fuel to run out while circling an airport with a marine layer over it. 192 gallons buys a lot of options.

Anyway, looks like the 182 for rent has 1282 lb useful, so if you put in 4 hours of fuel, you'd end up

1282
- 6x12x4 = 288 fuel
- 750 pax
= 244 for baggage and elbow room

Probably more practical
 
...but if we wanted to be practical, would we fly an airplane (twice, once to pick them up and once to take them home) versus having them drive up and drive home?
 
bobmrg said:
Have you flown into Ilwaco or Kelso during your training? Could your Ilwaco passengers drive to Astoria? It's not all that far, has nice long runways, and has instrument approaches for when that time comes.

Bob Gardner
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Thanks Bob, I always appreciate your responses. Family is in Kelso too, so failing anything else, i'd pick them all up in Kelso and just do KRNT-KKLS-KRNT.

I definitely want to work with my instructor to do my PPL cross countries to a few of these places I'd like to visit after my license. (I'll let it dry a little before I take off at gross weight in crosswind towards the ocean).
 
OH, none of the planes for rent are booted. (But the for sale one is). Do I realistically need boots and hot props to fly 10 months out of the year around Seattle?
 
MIFlyer said:
OH, none of the planes for rent are booted. (But the for sale one is). Do I realistically need boots and hot props to fly 10 months out of the year around Seattle?
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If you're flying in any IMC for a good chunk of the year, yeah, you need FIKI.

If you're just going to fly when it's solid VMC, no you don't need FIKI.
 
Thanks James, we have an awful lot of days where you can't see the sky, but the cloud layer is just sitting there at 3,000 ft. I know I need IFR certificate and plane to fly out those days, but I don't know how often icing is an issue, versus just overcast
 
You didn't mention acquisition budget but I usually always recommend Cessna 18x series for many reasons to first time plane buyers. You just can't go wrong with them.

If you decide later you want something different or your flying changes or becomes specialized in some way it will sell easy.

I would avoid a retract but's that's me. Something about the retract gear on Cessna's just ain't right to me, but the fixed gear are tough as nails. Moving gear adds so much complexity and maintenance and insurance the extra 10 knots isn't worth it <to me>. And you can't land on your ranch. :wink2:
 
MIFlyer said:
Thanks James, we have an awful lot of days where you can't see the sky, but the cloud layer is just sitting there at 3,000 ft. I know I need IFR certificate and plane to fly out those days, but I don't know how often icing is an issue, versus just overcast
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I did all my training up to CPL up there, based out of Harvey, and ice is a big factor in the PNW.

You don't even have your PPL, so you gotta little time before you need to worry about ice, just be careful and talk to lots of the guys up there with experience.

Great group of PNW guys on this Facebook group, you'd do well to join.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/FLightsAboveThePNW/
 
MIFlyer said:
Thanks James, we have an awful lot of days where you can't see the sky, but the cloud layer is just sitting there at 3,000 ft. I know I need IFR certificate and plane to fly out those days, but I don't know how often icing is an issue, versus just overcast
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Pretty much anytime the freezing level is below the altitude you need to fly, you should figure icing will be an issue. Pull the low enroute charts for your route from skyvector or similar site, look for the altitude you will need along the route. Look at AWC freezing level https://www.aviationweather.gov/icing/frzlvl for an idea of how low icing may occur.
 
MIFlyer said:
Hi, so I'd only do this on clear nice days. Nothing gnarly. I'll be a fairly low time PPL when i consider this the first time. Weather permitting, I'll do my long cross country on this route during training.

This would be to pick up family to come up for a football weekend, not a "commute" and would always be able to be cancelled with a call to them to say "sorry, too much fog, go ahead and drive up".

Eventually, i'd like to get instrument rated/etc.

I learned I can get a 182 for $165/hr, so that might be a whole lot more doable. It's /g, which doesn't matter since i'd only be a PPL at the start of this. I'd have to go to another school to get that though, current school has 172s and one SR20

Ideally, i'd love the justification for this one http://www.controller.com/listingsd...URBO-AZTEC/1966-PIPER-TURBO-AZTEC/1388061.htm

But I think it would cost me a lot to keep it on the tarmac. Hourly cost would be fine, it's the fixed and MX that scares me. Long term, i'd love a six seat, IFR capable plane that could haul, yanno, six humans vs. 2.5 humans and enough fuel to run out while circling an airport with a marine layer over it. 192 gallons buys a lot of options.

Anyway, looks like the 182 for rent has 1282 lb useful, so if you put in 4 hours of fuel, you'd end up

1282
- 6x12x4 = 288 fuel
- 750 pax
= 244 for baggage and elbow room

Probably more practical
Click to expand...

As long as you are making the prudent weather decisions you should be good to go with the 182.
 
James331 said:
You might not get direct every day, but I don't see any reason why something like a booted C210 couldn't handle this 9/10 times.
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You do realize we lose 2-3 pilots per winter here doing exactly what this pilot is asking about?

It's that tenth time :(
 
You just don't fly that day.

Fly in ice for a living (well half the year at least) no biggie if you're smart about it.

Id do that trip all day in a booted 210, probably have a good dispatch rate with good mx, too.

For a fresh low time pilot, yeah the fight could get a little sporty. Hence why I told him to join FATPNW, a group were both in BTW Tom.
 
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James331 said:
You just don't fly that day.

Fly in ice for a living (well half the year at least) no biggie if you're smart about it.

Id do that trip all day in a booted 210, probably have a good dispatch rate with good mx, too.

For a fresh low time pilot, yeah the fight could get a little sporty. Hence why I told him to join FATPNW, a group were both in BTW Tom.
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How many hours do you have??
How many hours does the OP have??

You may be comfortable with it, I wouldn't believe he would be?

I've been flying in and around Puget Sound since the 90s, I don't any more simply because my proficiency isn't where it must be to do it safely. If you read my statement, you understand a student, or a non IFR rated pilot should not try to do his mission on any but the best weather.
 
Tom-D said:
How many hours do you have??
How many hours does the OP have??

You may be comfortable with it, I wouldn't believe he would be?

I've been flying in and around Puget Sound since the 90s, I don't any more simply because my proficiency isn't where it must be to do it safely. If you read my statement, you understand a student, or a non IFR rated pilot should not try to do his mission on any but the best weather.
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I get your point.

However.. I think if he trained from the ground up in the 210, with someone like the guys at ATC in KBFI or some other experienced CFI, 0-IFR I'd think he'd be OK for that trip.
 
Thanks guys. I'll play it safe and do wait longer to buy. Wife will be happy about that. :)

I do think i'd like to get IR in my own plane though, it seems like it would be harder on IR to move between different panels and performance specs, but that's a year away.

Tom, do i understand you won't fly around Puget sound in the summer either?
 
MIFlyer said:
Tom, do i understand you won't fly around Puget sound in the summer either?
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I fly VFR when it is VFR, I have no desire to do IFR any more, I have no reason to.

I fly for fun, IFR is not fun for me. BTDT it's over.
 
MIFlyer said:
Thanks guys. I'll play it safe and do wait longer to buy. Wife will be happy about that. :)
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If you really want to get into this and train in a C-210 and do the mission in one. there is a very nice one at Bremerton for sale.

http://www.trade-a-plane.com/detail/aircraft/Single+Engine+Piston/1964/Cessna/210D/1761386.html

The owners are CFIs and will train you to get the IFR rating.
I've eyeballed this 210, it is very clean, not de-iced, and needs the panel up graded, but for the price you'll not find a nicer one.
 
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Thanks, I've been mostly looking at pipers. On the 210, is the front gear problematic, in your opinion as a seasoned A&P? I've also heard about the CS prop and conti engines being problematic. I know every plane is gioing to have maintenance, but are 210s worse than say a Cherokee 6/300 on average?

I like the useful load and speed on this one! I agree, it looks super clean from the pics for sure!
 
Tom-D said:
If you really want to get into this and train in a C-210 and do the mission in one. there is a very nice one at Bremerton for sale.

http://www.trade-a-plane.com/detail/aircraft/Single+Engine+Piston/1964/Cessna/210D/1761386.html

The owners are CFIs and will train you to get the IFR rating.
I've eyeballed this 210, it is very clean, not de-iced, and needs the panel up graded, but for the price you'll not find a nicer one.
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Non FIKI, I wouldn't bother, especially where you live.

Panel upgrades are for suckers, NEVER buy a plane with a panel less than 90% where you want it, it's a money pit.

By the time you get the panel done and boots on it, you're going to be well into the six figures on that plane.


210s ain't bad mx wise, plenty of folks make money with them, nothing exotic. They are great higher speed weight haulers, good IFR platform and the flight in icing ability makes them a REAL grow up IFR aircraft.
 
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MIFlyer said:
Thanks, I've been mostly looking at pipers. On the 210, is the front gear problematic, in your opinion as a seasoned A&P? I've also heard about the CS prop and conti engines being problematic. I know every plane is gioing to have maintenance, but are 210s worse than say a Cherokee 6/300 on average?

I like the useful load and speed on this one! I agree, it looks super clean from the pics for sure!
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The more parts you have, the more you will maintain. yes it is that simple.

99% of the 210 gear ups are pilot induced.
 
James331 said:
Non FIKI, I wouldn't bother, especially where you live.

Panel upgrades are for suckers, NEVER buy a plane with a panel less than 90% where you want it, it's a money pit.

By the time you get the panel done and boots on it, you're going to be well into the six figures on that plane.


210s ain't bad mx wise, plenty of folks make money with them, nothing exotic. They are great higher speed weight haulers, good IFR platform and the flight in icing ability makes them a REAL grow up IFR aircraft.
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Place common sense on it, and that 210 is good enough for what he is doing, at a price he can afford.
 
James331 said:
Panel upgrades are for suckers, NEVER buy a plane with a panel less than 90% where you want it, it's a money pit.
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I guess you didn't look at the equipment it has, keep the two coms with VORs, dump the ADF and Loran, add a GPS good enough to find the outer marker.

That's all you'd need.

This is one 210 that is worthy of an upgrade.
 
Tom-D said:
I guess you didn't look at the equipment it has, keep the two coms with VORs, dump the ADF and Loran, add a GPS good enough to find the outer marker.

That's all you'd need.

This is one 210 that is worthy of an upgrade.
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image.jpg


It's not even a traditional six pack, half way to TBO engine, and for PNW IFR ops it's not even booted, which really kills it's usability. Don't get me wrong, for the price it would be a nice VFR Arizona runabout plane.

But just changing the panel around to a six pack is going to run ya a few bucks, add to that a Garmin 430, HSI, 2 axis AP and boots at minimum, man you're spending well over what you paid for the plane and it's still half way to TBO.

Lots of 210s out there, spend a few bucks more and get a nice IFR bird with boots, it'll end up costing you way less than making that 210 a real mission capable aircraft.
 
James331 said:
Lots of 210s out there, spend a few bucks more and get a nice IFR bird with boots, it'll end up costing you way less than making that 210 a real mission capable aircraft.
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I believe you are getting carried away, understand what his mission really is.
 
Tom-D said:
I believe you are getting carried away, understand what his mission really is.
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If he wants to make that hop a C210 is prefect for that speed, range and load wise

If he wants to be able to actually fly IFR up there he's going to need boots, a real panel and realistically a AP.

The 210 your friend is selling, well Tom, she's pretty but that the definition of a "IFR legal" plane vs a straight IFR plane, I wouldn't use that 210 for much outside from taking off through a thin marine layer on a otherwise VFR trip, for sure not something you'd want to really put to work in the soup and god knows nothing you'd want to ever end up in ice with, with that thin defenseless wing.

I'm not sure his budget, but if that booted /G 210 I posted is in his range (of course not paying full asking price) it would be exactly what he is looking for and easily could be his last airplane, and we all know buying your last airplane first is the best way to do it if you can.
 
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James331 said:
If he wants to make that hop a C210 is prefect for that speed, range and load wise

If he wants to be able to actually fly IFR up there he's going to need boots, a real panel and realistically a AP.

The 210 your friend is selling, well Tom, she's pretty but that the definition of a "IFR legal" plane vs a straight IFR plane, I wouldn't use that 210 for much outside from taking off through a thin marine layer on a otherwise VFR trip, for sure not something you'd want to really put to work in the soup and god knows nothing you'd want to ever end up in ice with, with that thin defenseless wing.

I'm not sure his budget, but if that booted /G 210 I posted is in his range (of course not paying full asking price) it would be exactly what he is looking for and easily could be his last airplane, and we all know buying your last airplane first is the best way to do it if you can.
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Yep carried away..

read post 12.. again.
 
Tom-D said:
Yep carried away..

read post 12.. again.
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Yup, said he ideally wanted a IFR family hauler, already knows the value of /g, and we both know real IFR in the PNW = FIKI.



Ether way, the OP has to decide for himself, got a couple different options posted here he could consider.
 
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