Mini rant...

RyanShort1

RyanShort1

Final Approach
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RyanShort1
If I am a serious buyer, and call you to ask you questions about your airplane, don't tell me that all of the aircraft of a given type have the same empty weight - especially if it is LSA... And for sure, don't hang up on me. What would it take, maybe 3 minutes to look it up on your weight and balance?

Ryan
 
maybe you should start another "jerk" thread. Plenty of those - jerks, I mean.
 
RyanShort1 said:
If I am a serious buyer, and call you to ask you questions about your airplane, don't tell me that all of the aircraft of a given type have the same empty weight - especially if it is LSA... And for sure, don't hang up on me. What would it take, maybe 3 minutes to look it up on your weight and balance?

Ryan
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Maybe trying to hide the fact his plane is bloated :dunno:
 
Translation - "I have an offer on the table and I don't have time to deal with you."

Don't take it personally, just move on to the next plane.
 
I don't know on an LSA, but for my type I've noticed all AC are usually within about 25 lbs of each other with mine able to carry 670 lbs with full fuel. As W&B (as you well know) is hand calculated by the mechanics pushing and pulling equipment, other than re-weighing the AC I don't see how you're going to get tighter than the above.
 
I felt the same way in trying to purchase a plane. Finally, engaged a broker. Kissed a lot of frogs; was misled. Had a dealer promise to hold a plane for a pre-buy; he immediately called another party and told him of our interest. He purchase it without a pre-buy and had a lot of problems later.

Sorry you're going through it. Have to make an offer that suits you and try not to take it personally if it doesn't work out, or hire someone that does that.

Best,

Dave
 
It's OK. I've only called about 40-50 of the folks on Barnstormers with Cessna 120s, 140s, Taylorcrafts, Chiefs, and similar aircraft.

Ryan
 
Dave Siciliano said:
Kissed a lot of frogs
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That statement would be a compliment..

I have a battery of questions I ask when making the initial contact with a owner selling a plane. Please don be offended when I ask these questions, but if I am forking over some hard earned do-ri-mi on a toy that I don't need please be willing to answer them..

Mislead, fell down that hole once. If you can't send or have a bunch of pics loaded somewhere lets not waste each others time..
 
RyanShort1 said:
It's OK. I've only called about 40-50 of the folks on Barnstormers with Cessna 120s, 140s, Taylorcrafts, Chiefs, and similar aircraft.

Ryan
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You might want to invest $20 for a year's membership in the International Cessna 120/140 Association and visit their forum (it's free to just look)... or sign up for free on the Luscombe Yahoo group.
I'd imagine there are similar online resources for Aeroncas.
I mention this approach only because you're less likely to see an airplane offered for sale that isn't from a "vetted", and therefore more civil, member of a type club or group.
The Luscombe group in particular could be useful if you are thinking Silvaire... it's run by the Luscombe Endowment, and Doug Combs and the rest are always happy to advise.
But the Cessna group is also very friendly and no-nonsense.
 
Ventucky Red said:
That statement would be a compliment..

I have a battery of questions I ask when making the initial contact with a owner selling a plane. Please don be offended when I ask these questions, but if I am forking over some hard earned do-ri-mi on a toy that I don't need please be willing to answer them..

Mislead, fell down that hole once. If you can't send or have a bunch of pics loaded somewhere lets not waste each others time..
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Actually, I'm not put off by someone not having pictures. If it's some older guy that isn't quite up to modern technology, it's really OK. It's NOT ok to not be willing to give me an answer to a simple question, and be outright ignorant in knowledge that nearly every aircraft of a given type will weigh in a little bit different due to extra paint, different parts, etc...
It's really shocking how much of a variance there is amongst Taylorcraft aircraft, and how little useful load some of them have.

Ryan
 
RyanShort1 said:
It's really shocking how much of a variance there is amongst Taylorcraft aircraft, and how little useful load some of them have.
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What is more shocking is how many owners/sellers are clueless on that and don't think anything of the fact that the airplane has had all kinds of stuff added/removed/recovered/repainted (often paint over paint) and the W&B sheet in the airplane is whatever came from the factory.
 
Fearless Tower said:
What is more shocking is how many owners/sellers are clueless on that and don't think anything of the fact that the airplane has had all kinds of stuff added/removed/recovered/repainted (often paint over paint) and the W&B sheet in the airplane is whatever came from the factory.
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What is even more shocking to me is how many Sellers who don't just come to this process prepared. Here's a thought, why not have ahead of time all pertinent information in hand, good pictures, W & B, scanned logs and everything they'd want to know and have access to when considering a purchase themselves and include as much of the initial inquiry info in their ad. That way, they're not wasting valuable time answering the same questions over and over again for "tire kickers" like me. :D
 
RyanShort1 said:
If I am a serious buyer, and call you to ask you questions about your airplane, don't tell me that all of the aircraft of a given type have the same empty weight - especially if it is LSA... And for sure, don't hang up on me. What would it take, maybe 3 minutes to look it up on your weight and balance?

Ryan
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You may have been the 15th tire kicker ( in his mind) of the day. Debating something on the first phone call is never a good negotiating tactic. :no:

Have an order of things to check. First things are TTA&E, when was it last painted, last annual, history of the plane, why he is selling, ect. Docs and specs maybe later when he can scan the docs ( lots of folks don't know how to do that ) I'm not saying you did anything wrong, just hit him on a bad day? :dunno:
 
It's amazing that those oldsters can even answer the phone, isn't it?

Based on their responses, you might even think some of them don't need the money, don't really care how much the plane flies or how many lessons they need to sell in order to break even, or how much it weighs. Have any of them ever addressed you as Farley?



RyanShort1 said:
Actually, I'm not put off by someone not having pictures. If it's some older guy that isn't quite up to modern technology, it's really OK. It's NOT ok to not be willing to give me an answer to a simple question, and be outright ignorant in knowledge that nearly every aircraft of a given type will weigh in a little bit different due to extra paint, different parts, etc...
It's really shocking how much of a variance there is amongst Taylorcraft aircraft, and how little useful load some of them have.

Ryan
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Geico266 said:
You may have been the 15th tire kicker ( in his mind) of the day. Debating something on the first phone call is never a good negotiating tactic. :no:

Have an order of things to check. First things are TTA&E, when was it last painted, last annual, history of the plane, why he is selling, ect. Docs and specs maybe later when he can scan the docs ( lots of folks don't know how to do that ) I'm not saying you did anything wrong, just hit him on a bad day? :dunno:
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I could buy almost any T-craft right now and be happy IF it meets two requirements: 1. It actually meets the FAR 1.1 definition for Light Sport and 2. It can carry enough weight.

Ryan
 
RyanShort1 said:
I could buy almost any T-craft right now and be happy IF it meets two requirements: 1. It actually meets the FAR 1.1 definition for Light Sport and 2. It can carry enough weight.

Ryan
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Ryan, I got much better attention from the seller(s) when I called and said," Hello, my name is ____ from west Texas. I have funds already in escrow and am ready to purchase an AC just like yours, but first a few questions ..."
 
RyanShort1 said:
I could buy almost any T-craft right now and be happy IF it meets two requirements: 1. It actually meets the FAR 1.1 definition for Light Sport and 2. It can carry enough weight.
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An S-LSA that can carry "enough" weight is invariably one of the two: a modern plastic fantastic wonder like GX, or reeeeeeally lightly built tube and fabric thing like Allegro. Am I wrong?
 
RyanShort1 said:
It's OK. I've only called about 40-50 of the folks on Barnstormers with Cessna 120s, 140s, Taylorcrafts, Chiefs, and similar aircraft.
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Seriously?!! 40-50 calls? I'm on my 2nd!
 
danhagan said:
Ryan, I got much better attention from the seller(s) when I called and said," Hello, my name is ____ from west Texas. I have funds already in escrow and am ready to purchase an AC just like yours, but first a few questions ..."
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Trust me, I was pretty pleasant in starting out with them.

Ryan
 
I was on the fence about buying a used 172 before I started training and ended up not, then a few weeks ago ran across a nice looking plane on trade-a-plane that sparked my interest again in owning. I just had to call and get some details. The guy I spoke with was a complete A-hole. Told me to get an operators manual if I wanted answers. I wanted the empty weight and asked if it burned much oil and the guy went off the deep end on how ridiculous my questions were. To say the least, that guy wont be getting my money even though his plane was nice looking. I can totally relate to your frustration.
 
Heh.. I deal with buying airplanes a bit more than an average private owner, so I run into interesting sellers more often.
My favorite by far was "Where's your buyer from you say?" "Russia" "Commies?! Commies want my plane?!?!? Well they aren't gonna get it!"
I was quite surprised. I mean, Cold War was over for some 20 years by that time (couple of years ago).
At any rate, it was a pretty good airplane. Commies have it now. Such is life, comrades.
 
JasonM said:
I was on the fence about buying a used 172 before I started training and ended up not, then a few weeks ago ran across a nice looking plane on trade-a-plane that sparked my interest again in owning. I just had to call and get some details. The guy I spoke with was a complete A-hole. Told me to get an operators manual if I wanted answers. I wanted the empty weight and asked if it burned much oil and the guy went off the deep end on how ridiculous my questions were. To say the least, that guy wont be getting my money even though his plane was nice looking. I can totally relate to your frustration.
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I rest my case
 
I knew someone who accurately said about himself: "I am an a***hole." It sounds like his clones are selling airplanes these days!
 
As you probably know from my other threads, I've been living through the aircaft buying experience -- only multiplied because we're looking for an experimental homebuilt.

Take your certificated asshats, and multiply them times gomer, squared. You now know what I've been dealing with for two months.

One of the main reasons we have proceeded to the point of purchasing the RV-8A we've honed in on, is because the seller is a true gentleman, and sharp as a tack despite his advanced years. After dealing with so many people who had ZERO clue what they were doing, this guy has been a breath of fresh air -- EVEN THOUGH HE IS IN HIS 80s AND COMPUTER ILLITERATE.

This latter problem did present some serious obstacles. Photos and videos were almost non-existent, and even email was a chore for him. I had to patiently work with him, and offer some advice on how to get his plane properly displayed in the 21st century.

To his everlasting credit, he took my advice, got a friend to shoot and post 180 high resolution photos, and we are now just 48 hours from (hopefully) closing a deal. (The prebuy inspection is Sunday.)

His terrific attitude and cooperative demeanor made my patience very much worthwhile. I think we are both going to end up happy.

Of course, now I have to start the whole process on the OTHER side of the fence, as the seller of my Pathfinder. Ugh. I can hardly wait.
:mad2:
 
The real-estate brokers say "Buyers are liars and sellers are worse."
 
Most sellers are annoyed these days. Their planes aren't worth much and they weren't expecting the number of questions they get. They also assume anyone who asks a question is a tire kicker.

I'm a pretty savvy seller of goods in general even though I'd never sold a plane before, so when I sold the Aztec it was pretty obvious to me when I was dealing with a tire kicker vs a legitimate potential buyer. Even the tire kickers I would tolerate to a certain extent, and I made a point of answering all questions openly and honestly. It paid off when we ended up getting a buyer that was a great fit for the plane and paid $500 less than the original purchase price.
 
RyanShort1 said:
Actually, I'm not put off by someone not having pictures. If it's some older guy that isn't quite up to modern technology, it's really OK. It's NOT ok to not be willing to give me an answer to a simple question, and be outright ignorant in knowledge that nearly every aircraft of a given type will weigh in a little bit different due to extra paint, different parts, etc...
It's really shocking how much of a variance there is amongst Taylorcraft aircraft, and how little useful load some of them have.

Ryan
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And there's probably as much variance between the logbook weight and the actual weight. If you care about the difference you might want to have a plane weighed as part of a pre buy. OTOH, if you're buying you might rather not know the real weight.

As to the sellers unwillingness to answer questions, if it's a reasonable question and you're genuinely interested I'd write any plane off my list if the seller couldn't be bothered with questions. That might speak to their attitude towards other more serious ownership issues like maintenance.
 
gismo said:
As to the sellers unwillingness to answer questions, if it's a reasonable question and you're genuinely interested I'd write any plane off my list if the seller couldn't be bothered with questions. That might speak to their attitude towards other more serious ownership issues like maintenance.
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:yeahthat:

I would be put off right away by a Seller that wouldn't be forthright with information about a plane that you want to believe that they've taken good care of since they've had it. Talk about your major flags...Now, if it's been on the farm in the family since grandpa bought it in 1945, I'm less suspicious of certain information not being readily available. I buy and sell instruments in my spare time and some of the best deals I find are those where the kids could care less what the old man's horn is worth, they just want it gone. If you're claiming to have a well kept plane in your listing, back it up with info that any proud owner should have on hand and, if you have this information, include it in the listing and that will minimize the "tire kickers".
 
Selling airplanes is hard work. My first engagement was helping a couple of brothers from Dayton get rid of an Experimental that was a real dog and would barely get off the ground. After that I decided to work exclusively on the buy side and have liked it a lot better.

Ted DuPuis said:
Most sellers are annoyed these days. Their planes aren't worth much and they weren't expecting the number of questions they get. They also assume anyone who asks a question is a tire kicker.

I'm a pretty savvy seller of goods in general even though I'd never sold a plane before, so when I sold the Aztec it was pretty obvious to me when I was dealing with a tire kicker vs a legitimate potential buyer. Even the tire kickers I would tolerate to a certain extent, and I made a point of answering all questions openly and honestly. It paid off when we ended up getting a buyer that was a great fit for the plane and paid $500 less than the original purchase price.
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gismo said:
And there's probably as much variance between the logbook weight and the actual weight. If you care about the difference you might want to have a plane weighed as part of a pre buy. OTOH, if you're buying you might rather not know the real weight.

As to the sellers unwillingness to answer questions, if it's a reasonable question and you're genuinely interested I'd write any plane off my list if the seller couldn't be bothered with questions. That might speak to their attitude towards other more serious ownership issues like maintenance.
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NOT that I don't want to have an accurate weight, but whether or not the weight is accurate in the current documentation, I need to know that if I send a student to a checkride in an aircraft that is in the Light Sport category, it will be such that the student will have at least something legitimate to put in front of the examiner to show that he's done a W & B and can legally fly the aircraft with the examiner and the fuel on board. If the owner doesn't know the empty weight, several things come to mind. First, 91.103 requirements would be pretty difficult to prove if he's ramped, second, I wonder if the document exists, or is readily available. I have the max gross and empty weight memorized for the Cub I fly the most and it's not even my own aircraft.

Ryan
 
wabower said:
Selling airplanes is hard work. My first engagement was helping a couple of brothers from Dayton get rid of an Experimental that was a real dog and would barely get off the ground. After that I decided to work exclusively on the buy side and have liked it a lot better.
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I heard that plane had damage history.
 
RyanShort1 said:
NOT that I don't want to have an accurate weight, but whether or not the weight is accurate in the current documentation, I need to know that if I send a student to a checkride in an aircraft that is in the Light Sport category, it will be such that the student will have at least something legitimate to put in front of the examiner to show that he's done a W & B and can legally fly the aircraft with the examiner and the fuel on board. If the owner doesn't know the empty weight, several things come to mind. First, 91.103 requirements would be pretty difficult to prove if he's ramped, second, I wonder if the document exists, or is readily available. I have the max gross and empty weight memorized for the Cub I fly the most and it's not even my own aircraft.

Ryan
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My own plane but 3100 take off 2950 landing and near as makes no differences 1850 empty. I think knowing these numbers like that should be normal, not extrodinary.
 
I heard a rumor to that effect as well, but nothing on the logs or the CD from FAA so we blew it off. It had great compression, no metal in the oil.

Anymouse said:
I heard that plane had damage history.
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wabower said:
Selling airplanes is hard work. My first engagement was helping a couple of brothers from Dayton get rid of an Experimental that was a real dog and would barely get off the ground. After that I decided to work exclusively on the buy side and have liked it a lot better.
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I didn't consider selling the Aztec to be particularly hard work, but I also went into it with what I thought were reasonable expectations and it seems like that assessment was accurate.
 
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