Military air-to-air combat today vs. back in WWII

[N918KT]

Hey all.

I want to know what is your opinion on military air-to-air combat today vs. back in WWII. Do you think that today it is way too easy to shoot down a fighter plane because of heat-seeking missiles or firing missiles long range before the enemy plane knows he is going to be hit? In WWII, fighter planes used to dogfight in the skies maneuvering to shoot each other down with machine guns and getting close enough to take a shot.

Is there any fighter piloting skills required for air-to-air combat today or is it simply fire a heat-seeking missile and forget about it?

 

[Scotty78]

On March 3, 1969 the United States Navy established an elite school for the top one percent of its pilots. Its purpose was to teach the lost art of aerial combat and to insure that the handful of men who graduated were the best fighter pilots in the world. They succeeded. Today, the Navy calls it Fighter Weapons School. The flyers call it: TOP GUN.

 

[Zeldman]

It was definitely more personal back in WW II.

I read a story about "Gabby" Gabreski were he enjoyed finding bits of the enemy pilots clothing and body stuck to his airplane after shooting it down.

 

[mkosmo]

Let's just take it back to WW1 when they first saw the option and had nothing but a revolver or shotgun in the cockpit... There's hand to hand airplane combat!

 

[Velocity173]

Your question reminds me of the thinking the military had in the 60s. Dogfighting was essentially dead and future engagements would be strictly missile shots. Then we found ourselves in turning fights in Vietnam with unreliable missiles and non turning aircraft. We went back to designing true dogfighting aircraft in the 70s with the F-16 & F-18.

Now, while I'd say odds of a guns kill from here (Desert Storm & OIF) on out is slim, to say it's any easier because it's a missile over guns? I'd let Evil or 35 answer that one but I imagine 1) getting the aircraft through the myriad of air defense systems today, 2) getting your aircraft into shooting parameters, 3) complying with the ROE for that shot and 4) the missile actually tracking the target and not getting "spoofed" by the other aircrafts defensive systems would still be a challenge to say the least. All that and they still have to do the task of recovering their aircraft IFR in a SE fighter while not hitting your wingman. A task that some of us have problems with in a 150 KT airplane and better avionics.

 

[falconkidding]

It still requires skill just a different set. I think most of the difficulty nowdays would be dealing with ROE and identifying targets if you turned a flight loose and said anything past this line is bad, now go nuts i'm sure the 15-16-18-22s of the world could engage multiple targets without much of a fuss.
In reality I can't imagine getting a ROE that allows you free reign to shoot at targets BVR so some of those "fighter pilot" skills are still needed.

On the other hand there is no peer nation with anything that could match us. Even russia with their few advanced Su stuff would wither under a military bringing greater training, numbers and AWACS to the battlefield. So I doubt we'll ever see any kind of dogfighting in the future. Russia is a shell of its former might and who else but china could even put up an airforce?

 

[N918KT]

Thanks for the responses guys! What do you mean when you mention ROE? What is ROE? Sorry, I am not too familiar with military aviation acronyms so can you tell me what those acronyms stand for and what do they mean?

 

[Velocity173]

Thanks for the responses guys! What do you mean when you mention ROE? What is ROE? Sorry, I am not too familiar with military aviation acronyms so can you tell me what those acronyms stand for and what do they mean?

Rules Of Engagement. These "rules" are based on the Laws of War, are modified for today's modern warfare and evolve as the war goes on. Example, not being able to shoot an aircraft beyond visual range because of possible fratricide.

 

[Warlock]

I am one of the last graduates of the Army's Air to Air school in the mid 80's and really only a few went through the course...tactics changed...and in reality not very productive use of assets...for the most part it was simple fixed guns for the 20mm on an AH-1 or Fleshettes at 1000 meters (Mark 40 2.75 released the Fleshettes at 800m or so). We were authorized to do certain maneuvers during the course...this was a Helicopter-Helicopter course pitting our AH-1's against Soviet Hind's. No one had any solution to fixed wing engagements other than to fly low level toward the engaging fighter to steepen the attack angle...or the best one was in the era of slower wire guided missiles was to orient on the missile and move rapidly left or right just prior to impact!

Modern day the Hellfire makes a reasonable AA weapon for slow moving helicopters but really never discussed much. It has some real limitations as well.

We all thought about it but never were real comfortable with how it would work....I think I still have a copy of the course FM.

 

[Luvrv8]

I sold a 172 To a F16 pilot a few moths ago. He was telling me he is lucky to fly the 16 5 hours a month. I asked him how can he be ready to dog fight. He told me 0-3's dog fight, 0-4 and above does high level bombing and escorts. Not sure how much of that was a joke.

 

[Cooter]

Hey all.


Is there any fighter piloting skills required for air-to-air combat today or is it simply fire a heat-seeking missile and forget about it?

Like others said, it still requires skill but now it is a different skill set. Technology continues to reduce the amount of maneuvering required to put your aircraft in the killzone of the adversary. HMS in conjunction with the latest generation of missiles has changed the dogfight considerably, but weapons management is probably more difficult than ever.

 

[Sac Arrow]

I am one of the last graduates of the Army's Air to Air school in the mid 80's and really only a few went through the course...tactics changed...and in reality not very productive use of assets...for the most part it was simple fixed guns for the 20mm on an AH-1 or Fleshettes at 1000 meters (Mark 40 2.75 released the Fleshettes at 800m or so). We were authorized to do certain maneuvers during the course...this was a Helicopter-Helicopter course pitting our AH-1's against Soviet Hind's. No one had any solution to fixed wing engagements other than to fly low level toward the engaging fighter to steepen the attack angle...or the best one was in the era of slower wire guided missiles was to orient on the missile and move rapidly left or right just prior to impact!

Modern day the Hellfire makes a reasonable AA weapon for slow moving helicopters but really never discussed much. It has some real limitations as well.

We all thought about it but never were real comfortable with how it would work....I think I still have a copy of the course FM.

We never considered TOWs or Dragons to be a useful air engagement weapon. Unless the aircraft was sitting on the ground.

 

[Velocity173]

I am one of the last graduates of the Army's Air to Air school in the mid 80's and really only a few went through the course...tactics changed...and in reality not very productive use of assets...for the most part it was simple fixed guns for the 20mm on an AH-1 or Fleshettes at 1000 meters (Mark 40 2.75 released the Fleshettes at 800m or so). We were authorized to do certain maneuvers during the course...this was a Helicopter-Helicopter course pitting our AH-1's against Soviet Hind's. No one had any solution to fixed wing engagements other than to fly low level toward the engaging fighter to steepen the attack angle...or the best one was in the era of slower wire guided missiles was to orient on the missile and move rapidly left or right just prior to impact!

Modern day the Hellfire makes a reasonable AA weapon for slow moving helicopters but really never discussed much. It has some real limitations as well.

We all thought about it but never were real comfortable with how it would work....I think I still have a copy of the course FM.

J-CATCH of the late 70s proved helos aren't completely dead meat vs fighters.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/J-CATCH

 

[hindsight2020]

I sold a 172 To a F16 pilot a few moths ago. He was telling me he is lucky to fly the 16 5 hours a month. I asked him how can he be ready to dog fight. He told me 0-3's dog fight, 0-4 and above does high level bombing and escorts. Not sure how much of that was a joke.

He's being slightly facetious but with plenty of truth underscored. No formal distinctions are written but he's essentially saying the older guys cherrypick their training events and keep the gratuitous g pulling and multiple fangs out merge setups to the absolute minimum. The viper is not a body friendly airplane. Neck and back problems are staples of that community. They get pretty beat up by the time they hit their early 40s unless they vacate the community after only one flying assignment or two.

The other subtext to his joke is the recognition by the senior folk that a visual AA engagement to the merge is a wetdream for any fighter pilot, but statistically improbable. Thence literally breaking your neck training for the least likely to happen becomes overrated real quick. My personal friend and professional acquaintance is an ex viper now hornet pilot (about to be ex hornet too for you guessed, medical out hoping to God he keeps his faa medical and ability to fly civilian) and has given me an insight into that community. "9Gs overrated, dude" is his most memorable quote when we last discussed the viper during the 2010 homestead air show (I brought the buff there....snoooze). His claim to fame was droning over Iraq in 09 with two jdams and a vul period someone with bladder incontinence could fulfill without a potty break. Hardly the stuff akin to the battle of Britain or even Vietnam.

 

[wanttaja]

Hey all.

I want to know what is your opinion on military air-to-air combat today vs. back in WWII. Do you think that today it is way too easy to shoot down a fighter plane because of heat-seeking missiles or firing missiles long range before the enemy plane knows he is going to be hit?

When you're fighting for your life, or your nation's survival, nothing is "way too easy." If there were a button on the panel that says, "kill all enemy aircraft within 20 km", I expect pushing it to be the pilot's first action (depending on any other ramifications of pushing the button, of course). Let the other poor bastard die for HIS country.

Weapons development has ALWAYS been about improved Pk (Probability of Kill). I doubt you'll find a combatant in any time period who thought their job had become "too easy" because of improved technology. Quite the contrary, in some cases....

Ron Wanttaja

 

[Warlock]

J-CATCH of the late 70s proved helos aren't completely dead meat vs fighters.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/J-CATCH

I remember that stuff if they came down in the weeds we stood a good chance...because of NOE flight and surprise. The biggest issue was the cyclic rate of the AH-1.s 20mm and the ammo....half the Barrels of a Vulcan and 1/3 the rate and lower velocity round.

 

[Cooter]

He's being slightly facetious but with plenty of truth underscored. No formal distinctions are written but he's essentially saying the older guys cherrypick their training events and keep the gratuitous g pulling and multiple fangs out merge setups to the absolute minimum. The viper is not a body friendly airplane. Neck and back problems are staples of that community. They get pretty beat up by the time they hit their early 40s unless they vacate the community after only one flying assignment or two.

That may be partially true, but I would expect that he is referring more to the level of progression and training sorties available. BFM is a basic level skill, any current pilot is qualled to go out and 1v1. Escorts, self-escorts, and LFEs leads are a higher qual and when they make the schedule, it is usually used as an upgrade flight for O4 level pilots. I don't know too many fighter pilots that would turn down a 1v1 good deal sortie.

 

[SkyDog58]

Not being a fighter pilot, I do not feel equipped to make a statement on which requires a higher degree of skill. What I do know is that I believe that I would have found flying during WW2 to be the most interesting and challenging if I were a fighter pilot. I also know that when it comes to movies or TV shows, I do enjoy watching WW2 aerial combat far more than anything from the jet age.

 

[Seanaldinho]

Another thing I find interesting is you've gone from pilots being mechanical troubleshooters to computer troubleshooters (while still having to have a mechanical systems knowledge as well).

 

[35 AoA]

My personal friend and professional acquaintance is an ex viper now hornet pilot (about to be ex hornet too for you guessed, medical out hoping to God he keeps his faa medical and ability to fly civilian) and has given me an insight into that community. "9Gs overrated, dude" is his most memorable quote

Being qualified in both aircraft currently, I would tend to agree with your friend's statement. I only go to the limiter on a good day, when I am feeling 100%. With the G onset rate, and its ability to sustain that load, it can be a dangerous thing if you aren't truly ready for it in a single seat aircraft.

 

[EvilEagle]

There are a lot of challenges to A/A - it's always evolving, some for the better some for the worse. I didn't fly in WW2 (unfortunately) so I can't speak to the difficulty but as someone else said: it's a different set of skills. We (Eagles) train exclusively to air-to-air, no bombs, no CAS, no SEAD just air-to-air. Other than my 6 months in Afg flying the MC-12, I've been doing a/a non stop for almost 16 years.

G is sometimes overrated. This is one concept that UAS proponents can't get past no matter how much we tell them. The idea is to not get in a turning fight, but we all need to be ready if that happens. More than likely it won't be that F-16 or F-18 because they'll have bombs, ters, targeting pods, hts pods, and all the other wartime stuff on the wings. They don't train to turning fights with all that stuff on there, we train just like we'd be configured at a turning fight.

The neck and back issues are true for all fighter communities. We are also a 9G fighter, but we sit upright, not in the recliner so it's (from what the flight docs tell me) harder on our necks. Add to that the fact that we don't do many low G missions and you see where I'm going. Lots of neck and back problems. Most experienced Eagle guys know how to win a fight without having to pull ridiculous G, but sometimes it's required. I'm just now getting into the long term physical therapy requirements because my range of motion in my neck and shoulders just isn't there anymore. Sad days, must mean I'm getting old!!!

 

[Velocity173]

Couldn't imagine pulling G with NVGs. My neck starts hurting after a couple hours under 1 G. I'm pretty weak though.

 

[SkyDog58]

Another thing I find interesting is you've gone from pilots being mechanical troubleshooters to computer troubleshooters (while still having to have a mechanical systems knowledge as well).

I've known very few pilots who actually do any sort of effective troubleshooting. Most cannot or at least do not even provide adequate information in their logbook write-ups.

 

[X3 Skier]

One of the biggest discussions we had with TAC back in the day was if the F-22/F-23 should have a cannon or not in case they got in a knife fight. As Chief Engineer for the USAF, I could do either but the decision was entirely up to TAC. The final choice was made by the then CSAF, Merrill McPeak, in an interesting meeting when he told George Mullner, then Director of Requirements at TAC, after a brief on the need for a gun, "George, you know and I know you don't need a gun but if that's what you want, OK." So the F-22 got a cannon with 500 rounds.

Never had to go that far to keep the 9G requirement.

Time will tell if that was a good decision or like another one McPeak made to install the "bus driver/stewardess" rank insignia on Officer's uniforms.

Cheers

 

[EvilEagle]

One of the biggest discussions we had with TAC back in the day was if the F-22/F-23 should have a cannon or not in case they got in a knife fight. As Chief Engineer for the USAF, I could do either but the decision was entirely up to TAC. The final choice was made by the then CSAF, Merrill McPeak, in an interesting meeting when he told George Mullner, then Director of Requirements at TAC, after a brief on the need for a gun, "George, you know and I know you don't need a gun but if that's what you want, OK." So the F-22 got a cannon with 500 rounds.

Never had to go that far to keep the 9G requirement.

Time will tell if that was a good decision or like another one McPeak made to install the "bus driver/stewardess" rank insignia on Officer's uniforms.

Cheers

The gun works more than 90% of the time. Missiles of any type and any parameters are just a little better than 1/2 that. The gun is necessary.

 

[EvilEagle]

I've known very few pilots who actually do any sort of effective troubleshooting. Most cannot or at least do not even provide adequate information in their logbook write-ups.

Pilot trouble shooting and mx troubleshooting are rarely the same thing. Sometimes both work, sometimes neither. There's only so much you can do in the cockpit; most of the time it's turn it off, turn it back on. There are a few things you can do, but most pilots (especially on AD) just don't have the seat time to be able to truly troubleshoot. Hours are being cut every year; we have become the 150-200 hr/year air force that we used to laugh at.

 

[Warlock]

As a Maintenance Test Pilot for 20 years in the Army other than recycling a system in the air there is little any Pilot can do...think of it as a rental for an hour or two for the Aviator..in theory they know how it works but have no practice experience in troubleshooting or diagnosing a problem.

 

[Velocity173]

As a Maintenance Test Pilot for 20 years in the Army other than recycling a system in the air there is little any Pilot can do...think of it as a rental for an hour or two for the Aviator..in theory they know how it works but have no practice experience in troubleshooting or diagnosing a problem.

Power on reset. Problem comes back, continue with the mission. Tell MTP it "failed on final" coming back to base. :wink2:

 

[X3 Skier]

Asked one of the TAC/DR guys what kind of aircraft health indicators he wanted in the cockpit. He said, "A big round gage that has a needle that points to either OK or Eject".

Cheers

 

[turbofan]

Pilot trouble shooting and mx troubleshooting are rarely the same thing. Sometimes both work, sometimes neither. There's only so much you can do in the cockpit; most of the time it's turn it off, turn it back on. There are a few things you can do, but most pilots (especially on AD) just don't have the seat time to be able to truly troubleshoot. Hours are being cut every year; we have become the 150-200 hr/year air force that we used to laugh at.

I would kill for 150-200 hours a year. Most days I don't even remember how to turn the jet on. Hopefully threat pilots get as little flight time as me. Do Chinese pilots have to do DTS and SAPR training? What is the latest weapons school recommendation for how to get through cyber awareness training the fastest? Does TOPGUN recommend clicking through everything as fast as you can and hoping you get a passing score or should I slow down? What is the bold face for O-4 sensor eyes if he has high off bore sight tasking on the rail?

These are the things that are important in the 21st century US military.

 

[Velocity173]

I would kill for 150-200 hours a year. Most days I don't even remember how to turn the jet on. Hopefully threat pilots get as little flight time as me. Do Chinese pilots have to do DTS and SAPR training? What is the latest weapons school recommendation for how to get through cyber awareness training the fastest? Does TOPGUN recommend clicking through everything as fast as you can and hoping you get a passing score or should I slow down? What is the bold face for O-4 sensor eyes if he has high off bore sight tasking on the rail?

These are the things that are important in the 21st century US military.

Don't forget SAEDA, AT level 1 and SHARPS training. Sounds like the other services do just as much BS outside the cockpit as I did in the Army.

Fortunately I was able to average over 300 hrs a year for every year I was in. Deployments and IP had most to do with that though.

Getting ready for OIF I, I was reading some classified stuff in the S2 office on Iraqi pilot hours. They flew considerably less than us. No way one could be proficient with the hours I saw. Also, I imagine those hours were basically just to stay current and had no real training benefit like we get.

It sucks right now in the military, but I'd say you all are still getting more time than the "enemy."

 

[boilert]

I would kill for 150-200 hours a year. Most days I don't even remember how to turn the jet on. Hopefully threat pilots get as little flight time as me. Do Chinese pilots have to do DTS and SAPR training? What is the latest weapons school recommendation for how to get through cyber awareness training the fastest? Does TOPGUN recommend clicking through everything as fast as you can and hoping you get a passing score or should I slow down? What is the bold face for O-4 sensor eyes if he has high off bore sight tasking on the rail?

These are the things that are important in the 21st century US military.

As a patch (I can't be the only one on POA, right?), my recommendation for Cyber Awareness is to always "ask the security manager," because you can never be too careful and they need to do something other than look at JPAS all day long. Also, the current TTP for reactive CBT question suppression and elimination (RCQSE) is wikianswers...

I am convinced some unnamed threat country developed DTS as a way to foment dissent amongst the ranks. You know, I'd love to deploy you to rain hate and freedom on the bad guys, but you didn't submit your last voucher within 5 days of trip return.

As a further digression, during my time at the weapons school, my entire class went non-current at one point (long story...), but you bet your sweet ass we received our mandated 8+ hours of suicide and SAPR training.

 

[EvilEagle]

As a patch (I can't be the only one on POA, right?) ...

Here we go - time for the virtual patch pee-pee rub.

I tried to go on AD, never got picked up. Finally was going from my ANG unit and I was in the class that got cut due to sequestration. I was probably too old to be going anyway and another 6 months just ensured I was too old.

Wouldn't have the same seniority number at Delta if I'd gone; and I'm still the DO so it worked out ok for me. Would've loved to have gone to WIC though, just wasn't in the cards.

 

[hindsight2020]

I would kill for 150-200 hours a year. Most days I don't even remember how to turn the jet on. Hopefully threat pilots get as little flight time as me. Do Chinese pilots have to do DTS and SAPR training? What is the latest weapons school recommendation for how to get through cyber awareness training the fastest? Does TOPGUN recommend clicking through everything as fast as you can and hoping you get a passing score or should I slow down? What is the bold face for O-4 sensor eyes if he has high off bore sight tasking on the rail?

These are the things that are important in the 21st century US military.

Man, today is not the day to read this post. Preach on brother. I'm literally sitting at home dreading going back to work on Monday precisely because of the inevitable DTS/SAPR/sec manager/pay specialist suspenses I got waiting for me, plus getting scolded by lower ranking nonners (under authority of spineless O-6s) about qweep meetings I've skipped or general nonnery I supposedly need to make a priority. And then I gotta deal with the gratuitous high-threat checkride haze next month, for a job I've done for 10 years mind you. I'm fatigued of this sh**.....

The wife is applying to nursing school this year and and that starts a 24 month ticker to job changes of my own and subsequent QOL-improving move. Flinging gear on the right seat of a bus was never my life plan, but if it gets me an income-neutral job change where otherwise people leave me the hell alone and off my back, I'll take door #2 with a smile. I know in time I'll come to miss flying the Talon full-time, but this place jumped the shark for me. I guess it's the New years resolution atmosphere talking.

Office Space was a formative reason I forewent an engineering job; I find myself quoting that movie on a daily basis at this job. That just shouldn't be. The irony of those circumstances does not elude me. I just don't see myself tolerating this environment another 10 years. It's prob time to cut bait and do this job on a part-time status again.

 

[boilert]

Here we go - time for the virtual patch pee-pee rub.

Oh trust me, I get crap nearly every day at work still for wearing the gray patch. Regardless of what is on my left shoulder, I'm still an instructor, just (arguably) a more refined one with much more exposure to the "big picture." I've known plenty of people who should have gone for a multitude of reasons, but didn't. Doesn't make them any less of an aviator, however!

The C-model dudes from my class in the 422d were a legit group of folks. Pretty certain there was a Bayou Militia dude as well? A combination of PTSD from the cadre and the events of Patch night are making my memory hazy...

I got to refuel you guys back in October, will have to dig up and post the pictures I took.

 

[Mutts]

On March 3, 1969 the United States Navy established an elite school for the top one percent of its pilots. Its purpose was to teach the lost art of aerial combat and to insure that the handful of men who graduated were the best fighter pilots in the world. They succeeded. Today, the Navy calls it Fighter Weapons School. The flyers call it: TOP GUN.

I assume the film was accurate on teaching homo-erotic volleyball and how to throw a ragin' party on the flight deck in a war zone.

 

[35 AoA]

Oh trust me, I get crap nearly every day at work still for wearing the gray patch. Regardless of what is on my left shoulder, I'm still an instructor, just (arguably) a more refined one with much more exposure to the "big picture." I've known plenty of people who should have gone for a multitude of reasons, but didn't. Doesn't make them any less of an aviator, however!

The C-model dudes from my class in the 422d were a legit group of folks. Pretty certain there was a Bayou Militia dude as well? A combination of PTSD from the cadre and the events of Patch night are making my memory hazy...

I got to refuel you guys back in October, will have to dig up and post the pictures I took.

So in tanker WIC, did they teach you how not to point at the only cloud in the sky, and/or how to not hot nose a re-joining receiver until they are forced to make a high aspect pass with you

 

[Fearless Tower]

Office Space was a formative reason I forewent an engineering job; I find myself quoting that movie on a daily basis at this job. That just shouldn't be. The irony of those circumstances does not elude me. I just don't see myself tolerating this environment another 10 years. It's prob time to cut bait and do this job on a part-time status again.

Office Space IS the Surface Warfare version of Top Gun and Hunt for Red October.

I'm just glad I did my annual Cyber Awareness training before New Year's so I won't be locked out when I go into work tomorrow. I'm getting sick of Tina inviting me to download 'mytunes'....

 

[N3368K]

Stupid nonsensical **** will never end in the military. I retired (non-aviator) over twelve years ago and the stupidity level was pretty high back then with all the point and click and/or physical meeting mandatory fun.

I don't miss that crap.


Jim R
Collierville, TN

N7155H--1946 Piper J-3 Cub
N3368K--1946 Globe GC-1B Swift
N4WJ--1994 Van's RV-4

 

[zaitcev]

we have become the 150-200 hr/year air force that we used to laugh at.

My Russian acquiantances say that 150 is the limit for useful flying, primarily because the intake of education is drastically degraded after 2 hours in flight if it's an instructional flight and not just tooling enroute to the hot zone and back. U.K. used to have the bottom floor of 180, but they dropped it (I'm sure in part for budgetary reasons).