Microsoft Fiight Sim is back......in 2020

Discussion in 'Hangar Talk' started by flhrci, Jun 9, 2019.

  1. David Megginson

    David Megginson Pre-Flight

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    Their flight mechanics before were a bit of a joke—I wonder if they plan to improve them?

    In the meantime, we have X-Plane 11 (commercial/slick) and FlightGear (open source/rough around the edges), both of which have flight physics models lightyears beyond anything MS bothered with. A lot of the old add-on community moved to X-Plane, so there's no shortage of custom add-ons (free and commercial).
     
  2. MooneyDriver78

    MooneyDriver78 Pattern Altitude

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    Can I stay current by doing approaches on it?


    Tom
     
  3. SToL

    SToL Line Up and Wait

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    First time I played MS Flight Sim was early 80s on an IBM PC built like a suitcase with the keyboard and monitor built in. It was a little yellow monitor, like 8 inch or something.
     
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  4. dmspilot

    dmspilot En-Route

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    The flight mechanics in MSFS are just fine. They are just as good as X-plane in my opinion. The problem is it defaults to "easy mode" rather than "realistic mode" on startup.
     
  5. bluesideup

    bluesideup Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Hi.

    XP11, or any other version, generates an end product, flight dynamics wise, worse than FSX especially when it comes to Light GA. The C172 in the MSFSX, with some small tweaks, has much better feel and behavior than any of the XP versions.

    I am not sure why some people think that one approach, theory behind it, to creating a flight model is better than another, what it counts is the end product, the way it behaves when you use it as a tool. I can use the FSX to demonstrate, and perform, commercial maneuvers much better than anything I can come up with in the XP.
    As to the "commercial" version it is no different in the output of the flight dynamics it generates, it's the same engine.

    MSFSX has, and will continue to have a very large support, just about everything for XP is payware and if you buy one now it may not work in the next version. There is no plan ahead in that group, they just try this, next time try this, with total disregard for customers and even the Commercial developers.

    LR spent more time and effort in trying all these useless effects, reflections, smoke... that use a lot of the system's resources and completely ignore any of the real life pilot's input. They think that making all these will attract more people that are not into real flying, I assume, but that is likely to be a problem for them because most people cannot run it unless you have a real good system with a good throughput.

    Given the poor free support, their inability to create a decent Light GA, and the new MS sim, which is likely to be more of a game, going in the same direction, the same market, as XP, their days are numbered, unless they start listening to input from people that know how an airplane performs and concentrate on what is important, flight dynamics, how it feels, and performs in the many regimes in flight and on the ground.
    Try this, C172 any airport 15Kts of Xwind and try to taxi / take off. That is just one glaring short coming, I can give you hundreds more that re very important to a real pilot, in my opinion.

    If anyone wants to get access to tons of free ad dons, decent end product, and longevity, I would suggest LM, an MSFSX Gold if you can find it, or the Inet version which I do not use or recommend.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2019
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  6. Crashnburn

    Crashnburn Pre-takeoff checklist

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    I tried an earlier version of XPlane years ago. I experimented with slow flight. With MSFSX, you could get so slow, and the stall warning would go off just as the plane stalled. With XPlane, I think I was still flying at about 10 or 15 knots. I don't know how XPlane 11 does in slow flight, now.

    My MSFSX Gold worked great on my Windows XP computer. Unfortunately, when I upgraded to Windows 7, features slowly broke, as Windows 7 was upgraded. Also, MSFSX Gold has a limited number of installs allowed, and I hit that limit. That's when I moved to FSX:SE. Some features are still broken in FSX:SE, but not nearly as many as MSFSX Gold on Windows 7. Also, there is no installation limit for FSX:SE, and was less expensive than Prepar3d.
     
  7. David Megginson

    David Megginson Pre-Flight

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    There are two things to look at.

    First, any specific model may have good or bad flight coefficients assigned to it. So a specific model (like the C172) might feel good or bad, regardless of the platform, depending on how good a job the designer did.

    Second, the physics engine itself will have strengths and weaknesses that affect every flight model. The problem with FSX (and its predecessors) was that it wasn't really capable of handling the edges of the envelope. It would try to simulate stalls, etc., but it couldn't really tell when one wing was stalled and the other wasn't, etc. It was a very simplistic flight model for the centre of the flight regime, with a bit of bubblegum and duct tape to try to make the edges seem sort-of credible. IIRC, FSX also punted on other, smaller things (I don't remember them handling mag compass slant errors realistically, for example, but it's been a long time).


    D
     
  8. dmspilot

    dmspilot En-Route

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    Sorry, I've attempted both stalls and spins on FSX and XPlane. They are both equally bad.
     
  9. Tantalum

    Tantalum En-Route

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    -yup, I remember you had to go in there and max out the settings, turn on P-Factor, and all that stuff..

    I completely agree

    I know Xplane has God-Like status but I couldn't understand why... I actually bought it once a few years ago and got the full pack for it.. I was patently unimpressed:
    -the graphics sucked, both for the planes and the scenery
    -the sound was pitiful
    -the flight dynamics felt like an attempt at making it "real" but it was just off the mark, hard to describe but it using the same yoke and pedals I used in FSX and FS2004 in comparison X Plane was just not as close to the "real thing"

    In FSX you could definitely feel the approach of a stall coming on, feel how IAS / TAS relationship mach buffet worked, etc. get the right kind of pitch and needed trim changes, etc. Part of it depended on the planes you downloaded, I had at one point spent a pretty penny on some legit downloads and I couldn't believe how realistic they performed, this was from a lowly Warrior, up through Cirrus, etc. The PMDG 747 was also an epic add on pack. Mind you, the AI ATC was not half bad either..

    I'm thrilled to see this coming back.. on days where you can't get to the airport, or just want to have some fun at home, this is a great tool!
     
  10. SkyDog58

    SkyDog58 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    It will but you'll have to take off from the taxiway.
     
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  11. kayoh190

    kayoh190 En-Route PoA Supporter

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    I wish Microsoft would include an Easter Egg allowing me to tow a banner saying “F#^% Mayor Daley”.

    Sounds like a job for the modding community!
     
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  12. redtail

    redtail En-Route

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    X-Plane all the way baby! haha:)

    Coming from a man who has used nearly every version of MSFS/P3D since the mid 80's (flew my first virtual traffic pattern at Meigs)...AND every version of X-Plane since version 4. Honestly, I have enjoyed all of them immensely for what they are, but X-Plane does feel closer to the real thing to me, especially with the current version and third party aircraft. Version 5 was the last (possibly the only) to include a paper flight manual, as far as I am aware.

    That said... the new MSFS trailer looks very impressive! I will definitely be checking it out on release day. I hope they are coding it in Vulcan to take full advantage of my RTX 2080ti.
    IMG_5401.JPG
     
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2019
  13. flhrci

    flhrci En-Route

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    You must be rich to have a 2080Ti!! All I an manage is an AMD RX580. Good enough!
     
  14. Crashnburn

    Crashnburn Pre-takeoff checklist

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    It depends where your priorities lie. I bought an NVidia GTX 1080ti FTW etc. etc., etc. just as the 2080 was introduced. It's overkill for my FSX:SE with most sliders close to the right at 30 FPS on a 24" 1600 x 1200 display, and will be marginal on a 3880 X 1600 curved 38" display. It has HDR, so I'm hoping the new simulator will also support HDR (High Dynamic Range).
     
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  15. redtail

    redtail En-Route

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    I wish, lol.
    Well I didn't actually purchase it yet, I'm waiting until my ebay auction has ended, but I'm selling my two year old- EVGA GTX1080ti FTW3.

    Current bid is over $450 and could possibly get up to $500 or more, which is quite shocking to me. Didn't expect to get that much. I paid $760 for it in July 2017.

    I just sold my Oculus Rift CV1 (also purchased two years ago) for $250.
     
  16. flhrci

    flhrci En-Route

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    Sounds pretty good for ebay, especially for a video card. Good luck!
     
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  17. redtail

    redtail En-Route

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    After 16 years of flight simulators, starting with "Solo Flight" on my Commodore-64 and nearly everything after that, along with reading various aviation books tailored around MSFS, I was definitely ahead of the game. As well as ahead of most of the guys in my ground school class at Million Air Flight School, when I started lessons back in 1998, at Teterboro Airport.
    I am eternally grateful to the dedicated programmers of EVERY consumer flight simulator ever produced. I love them all, including the combat sims:D.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2019
  18. SoonerAviator

    SoonerAviator En-Route PoA Supporter

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    Freakin bitcoin miners driving up GPU prices!
     
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  19. David Megginson

    David Megginson Pre-Flight

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    Even the best video card is less expensive than the gas for a long cross-country flight in one of our little dead-dinosaur burners.
     
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  20. David Megginson

    David Megginson Pre-Flight

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    I've been contributing code to FlightGear on and off since the late 1990s, including several firsts (their first taildragger, their first multi-engine plane, their first realistic instrument lags/errors, their first roads and landcover in the scenery; their first add-on/customisation infrastructure etc; their PA-28-161 is a model of my plane as it was about 10 years ago), so I got way deeper into flight physics than any humanities grad has a right to be.

    Eight or 9 years ago, FlightGear (which has several different flight models) was still far better than X-Plane at the physics, but now, after installing XP11 a couple of weeks ago, I have to give X-Plane the prize. There are still issues around the edges, but they're very close in the core concepts now.

    A non-flight-model thing that impressed me early on was taking off from an airport and finding it very bumpy. I hadn't enabled turbulence, but then I realised it was just late afternoon in a warm, sunny day, so XP11 figured it out on its own.
     
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  21. redtail

    redtail En-Route

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    Now if they could just nail the ground handling code (it still sucks, especially at high speed, such as the landing rollout) and get rid of that ridiculous tire squeal sound effect, that has been annoying the hell out of people for years!!! :mad:

    Either Laminar Research are flat out ignoring their customers, or they do not think that the tire squeal noise is a problem. It sounds ridiculous!
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2019
  22. tinerj

    tinerj Cleared for Takeoff

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    I remember a Young Eagle getting out of a plane and saying, "I like Flight Sim better."
     
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  23. mryan75

    mryan75 Line Up and Wait

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    I have a stock 8700k/1080 setup, no overclocking. P3D with everything maxed and some nice add-on scenery, it's absolutely fantastic. Tried XP10 a while back, like most things designed by engineers it was the least user-friendly piece of software in history. And the flight dynamics were no better than FSX, which was nigh-on 13 years old at that point.

    People get so wild about this stuff. I fly VFR around the Caribbean for giggles, and approaches to fields around my area for instrument practice. Unless you're an über-dork, P3D is great for both.
     
  24. sarangan

    sarangan Line Up and Wait

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    I hadn't heard of prepar3D. Can you elaborate more on it? Can VR goggles be used with it?
     
  25. deonb

    deonb Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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  26. mryan75

    mryan75 Line Up and Wait

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    Sure. And it's 64-bit. Lockheed Martin bought the rights to the MSFS series and completely revamped the core of FSX. So it's essentially FS11, though it is now in its fourth iteration, so basically FS15 at this point.
     
  27. David Megginson

    David Megginson Pre-Flight

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  28. dmspilot

    dmspilot En-Route

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    Yeah, they licensed the intellectual property for educational/training use. Lockheed isn't allowed to market Prepar3D as a game or for entertainment, presumably because MS might want to bring FS back some day...like in 2020.
     
  29. redtail

    redtail En-Route

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    Too bad we couldn't take the best of each and meld it into the perfect PC flight simulator. That has been my wish for decades. Speaking of which......
    Did Lockheed Martin ever update that lame ass rotating beacon, carried over from MSFS/FSX? They need to take a look at how X-Plane models a proper looking rotating beacon, as well as lighting in general. Especially night lighting!

    Beacon.jpg

    "Paul Grubworm
    View ProfileView Posts
    [​IMG] Feb 12, 2015 @ 1:01pm

    Rex made my runway lights look incredible but the rotating beacon looks horrible. All my other scenery looks so real except my beacons which look like solid cones rotating in a circle. I run everything at ultra with a steady 45-50 fps. I have REX+Overdrive, ORBX, My Traffic, GEX, and allot of the megascenery textures. Not including all the payware aircraft and airports I have. Can you think of anything I'm missing to take my visuals to an even higher level? "
    ___________________________________
    I see this guy attempted a fix a couple of years ago. Not sure how well he did, but seriously, this is something that needs to be addressed by the experts.
    Just like Laminar Research needs to address the long standing ground handling issues in X-Plane!
    https://www.fsdeveloper.com/forum/threads/upgraded-fsx-rotating-airport-beacon-now-available.440543/
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2019
  30. mryan75

    mryan75 Line Up and Wait

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    They aren't allowed to perhaps, but that's what everyone uses it for. And they clearly don't care.
     
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  31. redtail

    redtail En-Route

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    Nor should they, in my opinion. I purchased P3D version 3 'Academic' for $60 a few years ago. I consider myself a lifelong student of aviation. The fact that I also get entertainment from my various flight simulators, is none of Lockheed Martin's or Microsoft's business.
    Either require proof of enrollment in an academic program, or stop selling it to the public.
     
  32. flhrci

    flhrci En-Route

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    Have you gotten your full motion sim yet?
     
  33. redtail

    redtail En-Route

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    Not yet, but I'm thinking of starting a GoFundMe page for this Redbird full motion helicopter sim. Looks impressive. It's 150 grand! :eek:
    https://simulators.redbirdflight.com/products/vto

    My NextLevel V3 motion platform is a seat-mover only. It is pretty damn impressive in DCS World, flying the Hornet, A-10C, Huey, P-51 and just about all the modules. Not so much with X-plane and other civilian sims. It really shines in racing games such as Dirt Rally, which is the only one I've tried so far.

    https://www.nextlevelracing.com/products/next-level-racing-motion-platform-v3/
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2019
  34. BigBadLou

    BigBadLou Final Approach

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    Awww man, this brings back memories!
     
  35. redtail

    redtail En-Route

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    Yes indeed! SubLogic. This was right around the time I bought my first computer, the Commodore-64. Spent hours and hours on it, while my brother and other kids in the neighborhood were outside playing football, basketball and chasing girls. I couldn't care less about any of that crap, I wanted to be a pilot :). That and my electronics hobby went hand in hand. Not much time for anything else back then lol
    34994-flight-simulator-ii-commodore-64-front-cover.jpg
     
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  36. flhrci

    flhrci En-Route

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  37. redtail

    redtail En-Route

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    Nice. I recently saw a video of Austin Meyer showing this setup as well.

    Chris Palmer is a great resource in the flightsim community and he's a real world CFI. I purchased some of his material years ago.
    Here's his website... https://www.flyaoamedia.com/
     
    Last edited: Jul 10, 2019
  38. flhrci

    flhrci En-Route

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    Where the heck you been? Can't have a conversation without two people you know. lol
     
  39. redtail

    redtail En-Route

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    Busy family life and working rotating shifts (including a couple of weekends a month) only allows me to poke my head in here once in awhile. Hard to be a regular.. lol