Maybe I'm wrong...I don't know

EdFred said:
I also have quite a few more hours and ratings than the OP to solidify my stance. He now has a little more experience to solidify his stance.
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I'm not a great writer, so maybe the point I'm trying to make isn't clear. I'm not trying to prove what he did was unsafe, it wasn't . The decision making process can apply to many other situations. From everything he said, it is obvious there was something nagging him in the back of his head. In this instance, if didn't matter, in others it may. It may be a good idea to listen to that nagging voice. The fact that he has to ask others if he did the right thing, to me means he didn't choose the option that would have relieved all doubt.
 
vintage cessna said:
What are you going to do next time given the same conditions?
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I feel perfectly comfortable with a 5kt tailwind and the ability to fly it safely. If I were given the same exact conditions and situation, I will be more cognizant who is around. :rolleyes2:

MAKG1 said:
You bet I was. Saturday for a $100 hamburger, and taking the family sightseeing over the Santa Cruz Mountains in a new-to-us c182. It was a phenomenal day.
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Nice! I was there Sunday. The area was quite busy with that surf competition but that wasn't stopping me from the fish n' chips. There was some crazy turbulence around 2500 feet but it did smooth out a bit lower. Winds were real shifty on the surface followed by a healthy crosswind on final.

pilot117 said:
Nope, neither of those. He did it to provide himself a greater margin of clearance over the obsticle at the end of the runway.
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Exactly....I never once doubted that the takeoff would be compromised. Had this been the case and I continued, I'd consider it poor decision making. My only doubt came afterwards when the CFI gave his speech. Again, benefit of the doubt, he didn't know me nor did he know my skill level. I just didn't see it a big deal especially when the sock positioned midfield was drooping like the skin on an old woman.
 
What do you do when tower is using a runway with a 5-7 tailwind? Nag at them?

vintage cessna said:
I'm not a great writer, so maybe the point I'm trying to make isn't clear. I'm not trying to prove what he did was unsafe, it wasn't . The decision making process can apply to many other situations. From everything he said, it is obvious there was something nagging him in the back of his head. In this instance, if didn't matter, in others it may. It may be a good idea to listen to that nagging voice. The fact that he has to ask others if he did the right thing, to me means he didn't choose the option that would have relieved all doubt.
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Threefingeredjack said:
No flaw there, just adding an extra safety margin, which is never a bad thing. IMHO the CFI was way out of line. I have been in situations where I chose downwind takeoffs because of lower obstacles in that direction and the machine was heavy. This was not even close to stretching the abilities of the airplane. I see more and more CFIs lately who think at 1k they have the aviation world by the tail and are always the supreme dictator of what is and is not acceptable. Then they move into the right seat of a CRJ and are back where they belong, a neophyte with an ego.
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I can't say if the CFI was out of line or not since I wasn't there, maybe so. I assume the OP is a renter and not an owner. Either way, no one likes to be upbraided .

As some one that does make available for rent to pilots an expensive piece of equipment, I can tell you what the renter does can affect me greatly. If I see a pilot do something in my aircraft that I think is not right, I will, with tact, discuss it with them. On one occasion , I told the pilot not to rent my aircraft.
 
wabower said:
If so at KADS (which routinely uses southerly flow up to ~9 kts) you'll need to call the truck to haul the plane there.
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Had a feeling you were going to say some BS like that.
 
EdFred said:
Anything less than 5kts I don't even consider wind.
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I agree. "light and variable" comes to mind in a situation like this.

I took my instrument written today and one of the questions was "what point are the winds considered calm?" or something of the sort. Answer 5kts on the ground.
 
wabower said:
Funny, I had the same feeling about how you would try to dodge the answer.
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Not dodging anything, give me all the conditions and circumstances and I will give you an answer. If I'm still awake that is.
 
wabower said:
What do you do when tower is using a runway with a 5-7 tailwind? Nag at them?
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Or even an 11 kt tailwind, as KPTK did a couple of months ago on an IFR day. I could have asked for vectors or hold for 20 minutes while they switched runways. I landed straight in. With 6000 feet of runway, I would have taken off that way too, but they switched while I was getting fuel.
 
wabower said:
I did. Twice. YMMF.
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If the only info given is that it is a 5-7 kt tailwind, then my original response stands. I may or may not request a different runway. That would hardly nagging if I did request a different runway. Good night.
 
vintage cessna said:
If the only info given is that it is a 5-7 kt tailwind, then my original response stands. I may or may not request a different runway. That would hardly nagging if I did request a different runway. Good night.
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Don't come to MDW because when we have IFR and a wind from the east, we are landing 31C to not interfere with ORD. You'll be holding a LONG time if you insist on 13R.
 
And they will still have only one that you can use unless you want a looong time. What are your POH limitations on tailwind?

vintage cessna said:
If the only info given is that it is a 5-7 kt tailwind, then my original response stands. I may or may not request a different runway. That would hardly nagging if I did request a different runway. Good night.
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vintage cessna said:
I can't say if the CFI was out of line or not since I wasn't there, maybe so. I assume the OP is a renter and not an owner. Either way, no one likes to be upbraided .

As some one that does make available for rent to pilots an expensive piece of equipment, I can tell you what the renter does can affect me greatly. If I see a pilot do something in my aircraft that I think is not right, I will, with tact, discuss it with them. On one occasion , I told the pilot not to rent my aircraft.
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In such a case you are 100% within your rights. Unsafe operation is not acceptable in most cases. But speaking with tact is not what occurred here if I read the OP correctly.
 
bbchien said:
Don't come to MDW because when we have IFR and a wind from the east, we are landing 31C to not interfere with ORD. You'll be holding a LONG time if you insist on 13R.
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Ok, I won't, matter of fact I can't since I only fly VFR now. Maybe someone can compile a complete list of airports that I should not fly to. Actually, don't bother. I go where I want, I will question the wisdom of ATC when the situation dictates.

I have seen controllers, not ones I would consider good, receive a report of icing at a particular altitude, and then assign that altitude to other aircraft. Not because there is no other option, but because it is easiest thing to do.
 
vintage cessna said:
If the only info given is that it is a 5-7 kt tailwind, then my original response stands. I may or may not request a different runway. That would hardly nagging if I did request a different runway. Good night.
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When a class D airport is in close proximity to a much larger airport, like KADS (Addison, TX) next to KDAL (Love Field, Dallas). Then a field like Addison will land whatever direction a much larger field like Love is landing. This may mean landing with a tailwind until the larger airport decides to change and they work it out with approach. Since traffic is stacked up on a particular arrival it takes some time. They never want to explain that on frequency though.

You can always divert or hold until they change.
 
vintage cessna said:
Ok, I have seen controllers, not ones I would consider good, receive a report of icing at a particular altitude, and then assign that altitude to other aircraft. Not because there is no other option, but because it is easiest thing to do.
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Pilots can get out of that mess with one word...... UNABLE
 
It's reasonable to assume at some point all pilots will find it necessary make a downwind takeoff. The OP used good judgement in choosing to explore the thought processes and execution of this skill in benign conditions.

When the day arrives to perform a downwind takeoff with a measurable wind he will have some experience and confidence to assist him...isn't that what learning is about?
 
wabower said:
And they will still have only one that you can use unless you want a looong time. What are your POH limitations on tailwind?
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My POH doesn't specify a tailwind limitation . I will tell you this, if the airport is a place like TEB or similar, 5-7 kt tailwind, I will go with the flow. If it is Podunk Muni and the controller is half asleep and can't be bothered, IOW no good reason, I'll request a runway into the wind. I will also tell you a controller will not care if you end up off the RWY. You are PIC, and you accepted the landing clnc, if it was unsafe you should have refused the clnc, end of story.
 
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:goofy:

I can't recount how many times I've chosen a takeoff or landing runway only to see the windsock spin around nearly a full 180 degrees (and sometimes back again), but it's not rare.
 
My book shows performance up to 10 knots of T/W, as do those of most planes I know something about including the biggest bizjets, but then my plane is a fairly modern 1960 model. My other ride is a 1943 model, so maybe it has no T/W performance included. If so, I'll be left to ponder whether it will need 300 feet or perhaps 400 to get airborne.

But if the performance dot comes out at the same spot whether the conditions are hot, wet and still or dry, cool, and a slight T/W, what are the reasons for accepting one clearance and declining the other?

vintage cessna said:
My POH doesn't specify a tailwind limitation . I will tell you this, if the airport is a place like TEB or similar, 5-7 kt tailwind, I will go with the flow. If it is Podunk Muni and the controller is half asleep and can't be bothered, IOW no good reason, I'll request a runway into the wind. I will also tell you a controller will not care if you end up off the RWY. You are PIC, and you accepted the landing clnc, if it was unsafe you should have refused the clnc, end of story.
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steingar said:
I might have asked the CFI if he'd ever been punched in the face for mouthing off too much.

You are the PIC. If the Chief CFI doesn't like it, he can go back to his Chief Ramen noodles.
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Ramen noodles are for the line CFI's...Chief CFI's can afford Chef Boyardee:goofy:
 
wabower said:
My book shows performance up to 10 knots of T/W, as do those of most planes I know something about including the biggest bizjets, but then my plane is a fairly modern 1960 model. My other ride is a 1943 model, so maybe it has no T/W performance included. If so, I'll be left to ponder whether it will need 300 feet or perhaps 400 to get airborne.

But if the performance dot comes out at the same spot whether the conditions are hot, wet and still or dry, cool, and a slight T/W, what are the reasons for accepting one clearance and declining the other?
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The only aircraft I fly now is a LSA, so I'm not really concerned about take off distance. My only concern is ground speed at touchdown. I have landed with light tailwinds of 7 kits and less , no problem. Could I handle higher than that, maybe, but I have no intention of finding out. ATC will sometimes push the tailwind landings when they shouldn't and only change when the pilots start demanding a change.

Landing with a tailwind increases the risk, a risk I will accept up to about the 7 kits we are talking about. But I have to have a good reason to accept the additional risk.
 
dell30rb said:
The windsock rules in my book. And there is nothing wrong with a 5kt downind departure in a light 172 on a cold day with that much runway. I'm assuming you are not at elevation
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I'm at 5500 and regularly practice tailwind and quartering tailwind takeoffs and landings. There are quite a few runways out here that are one-way, and I never know when I'll need to do it for real. 5kts tail is nothing to worry about in a 172, as a rule, 'specially if you've done the calculations and are reasonably confident about performance.

On the other hand I usually don't practice this on a hot day in the summer, but I have been known to, once in a while. But then, I've got two 8000 ft runways, but I learned on 4000 ft.

Drives the newly minted CFIs crazy.
 
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winds are calm...your alright. Screw that guy, commercial operators do it all the time, that cfi is just a robot and cant make decisions unless the FAR/AIM or the flying handbook says to do it. I would have done the exact same thing, all about the straight out departure!
 
murphey said:
I'm at 5500 and regularly practice tailwind and quartering tailwind takeoffs and landings. There are quite a few runways out here that are one-way, and I never know when I'll need to do it for real. 5kts tail is nothing to worry about in a 172, as a rule, 'specially if you've done the calculations and are reasonably confident about performance.

On the other hand I usually don't practice this on a hot day in the summer, but I have been known to, once in a while. But then, I've got two 8000 ft runways, but I learned on 4000 ft.

Drives the newly minted CFIs crazy.
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Exactly, if you never experience something in relatively safe conditions, how can you handle a real situation if you had too.
 
Dude we never did that Bay Tour! Though Little River was fun. Good to hear you came to my neck of the woods. How is the instrument training?
 
CFI.William said:
Certainly you would not recommend any pilot to purposely choose to land with a tailwind when the winds favor one with a headwind.
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Come to Gaston's sometime. Or to the little grass strip around the corner from me that has a 4% slope (80' in 2,000').

Tell me you wouldn't land with a tailwind at those strips.

Never say never...never say always.
 
AdamZ said:
I say belive what you see before you belive what someone tells you.
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What do I believe when the wind sock and the tetrahedron are indicating opposite direction wind??

We checked it out and found water had gotten into a bearing on the windsock frame and a 20 degrees F, that didn't work too well.
 
Most of the tets in the midwest are WW-II vintage, and for many that's the last time the tracks and bearings were greased.

Graueradler said:
What do I believe when the wind sock and the tetrahedron are indicating opposite direction wind??

We checked it out and found water had gotten into a bearing on the windsock frame and a 20 degrees F, that didn't work too well.
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vintage cessna said:
Ok, I won't, matter of fact I can't since I only fly VFR now. Maybe someone can compile a complete list of airports that I should not fly to. Actually, don't bother. I go where I want, I will question the wisdom of ATC when the situation dictates.

I have seen controllers, not ones I would consider good, receive a report of icing at a particular altitude, and then assign that altitude to other aircraft. Not because there is no other option, but because it is easiest thing to do.
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Yeah. BTDT.
 
EdFred said:
I work right next to KGRR, and their AWOS/ATIS has reported BKN/OVC when it's been SKC and vice versa. AWOS can be wrong. Were you one of the CFIs to come out and yell at him?
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When you lose your day job, I got a good feeling you'd make an excellent amateur meteorologist for KGRR.

There's hope for you yet!

:mad2:
 
CFI.William said:
When you lose your day job, I got a good feeling you'd make an excellent amateur meteorologist for KGRR.

There's hope for you yet!

:mad2:
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Yeah, because it's so difficult to look at the sky and know whether there's clouds or not.
 
sacbluesman said:
Nice! I was there Sunday. The area was quite busy with that surf competition but that wasn't stopping me from the fish n' chips. There was some crazy turbulence around 2500 feet but it did smooth out a bit lower. Winds were real shifty on the surface followed by a healthy crosswind on final.
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Yeah, that happens there sometimes. It was dead calm on Saturday, though.

I've been in there (multiple times) when the AWOS (and windsock) was reporting a modest sea breeze, and there was a strong land breeze at pattern altitude, switching over just a few hundred AGL. It's really weird to line up on final and crab pointing into the windsock....

I've also taken off from there and hit something that sure as heck felt like wake turbulence (strong rolling moment) on the crosswind leg, when no one else had taken off before me. My best guess is that it was wind coming over or around Montara Mountain.
 
kimberlyanne546 said:
Dude we never did that Bay Tour! Though Little River was fun. Good to hear you came to my neck of the woods. How is the instrument training?
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I know i'm finally back. I got so burned out with training that I didn't want to see anything aviation until I was done. Thank God its finally over. We definitely gotta go fly again one of these days. This past weekend I wanted to do a bay tour and hit KHAF. I studied the charts a bit and came up with a plan B & C if ATC wasn't going to give me what I wanted...All that VFR planning gave me a headache so I just filed IFR :D Ended up getting a decent bay tour afterall with the vectors I was given.
 
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