Maybe I'm wrong...I don't know

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sacbluesman

Pre-takeoff checklist
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sacbluesman
So the other day I had an interesting experience and just looking for some feedback or opinions.

I was departing in a C172 from my home airport with a 3200ft runway. It was early morning and the temp was about 40+/- and winds were fairly calm. I got my engine start done and got the minute weather. Winds were reported from the N directly down the runway at 5kts but the sock was limp. My route of flight was to the S/W so I made the decision to depart on the downwind runway. Now, I'm familiar that there is a 10% increase in t/o distance for each 2kt tailwind. I had full fuel and 1 pax. I did a short field t/o just for an extra margin of safety and noticed no extra runway used up.

I got back from my x/c about 5 hours later and one of the CFIs came up to me and asks, you know you departed downwind? Then proceded to lecture me about it and also said the chief CFI had a fit and was ****ed.

This has been eating at me for a while now because 1, I'm now second guessing my decision making abilities and 2, I felt the CFI made it a point to come across as the "instructors" know all and I don't know enough. Perhaps it was his delivery of the information but nonetheless it seemed condescending.

So here is my position. I have less than 300 hours however I still fly like a freshly minted pilot in the sense that I double check and triple check everything before I go. I got my weather but also looked at the sock to verify the info as well as noted the winds while walking around on the ramp. I know the airplanes performance capabilites as well as my personal limits.

In hindsight, I suppose I should have done a textbook departure but I felt that I knew why I was doing what I was doing and there was never any doubt of safety.

Any thoughts or opinions?
 
Hmm that is interesting. I have no opinion but personally for departure I consider wind sock above all else.
 
I might have asked the CFI if he'd ever been punched in the face for mouthing off too much.

You are the PIC. If the Chief CFI doesn't like it, he can go back to his Chief Ramen noodles.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
Hmm that is interesting. I have no opinion but personally for departure I consider wind sock above all else.
Click to expand...

The windsock rules in my book. And there is nothing wrong with a 5kt downind departure in a light 172 on a cold day with that much runway. I'm assuming you are not at elevation
 
sacbluesman said:
So the other day I had an interesting experience and just looking for some feedback or opinions.

I was departing in a C172 from my home airport with a 3200ft runway. It was early morning and the temp was about 40+/- and winds were fairly calm. I got my engine start done and got the minute weather. Winds were reported from the N directly down the runway at 5kts but the sock was limp. My route of flight was to the S/W so I made the decision to depart on the downwind runway. Now, I'm familiar that there is a 10% increase in t/o distance for each 2kt tailwind. I had full fuel and 1 pax. I did a short field t/o just for an extra margin of safety and noticed no extra runway used up.

I got back from my x/c about 5 hours later and one of the CFIs came up to me and asks, you know you departed downwind? Then proceded to lecture me about it and also said the chief CFI had a fit and was ****ed.

This has been eating at me for a while now because 1, I'm now second guessing my decision making abilities and 2, I felt the CFI made it a point to come across as the "instructors" know all and I don't know enough. Perhaps it was his delivery of the information but nonetheless it seemed condescending.

So here is my position. I have less than 300 hours however I still fly like a freshly minted pilot in the sense that I double check and triple check everything before I go. I got my weather but also looked at the sock to verify the info as well as noted the winds while walking around on the ramp. I know the airplanes performance capabilites as well as my personal limits.

In hindsight, I suppose I should have done a textbook departure but I felt that I knew why I was doing what I was doing and there was never any doubt of safety.

Any thoughts or opinions?
Click to expand...

I don't even have 100 hours so take this with a grain of salt. When you start thinking in terms of what you "could do" rather than in terms of what you "should do", you are likely to find yourself in some trouble. This may not be an issue when you crunch the numbers in your performance calculations, but say you did lose engine power after takeoff. You really don't want to find yourself in a situation like that. Also, taking off on a 3200 foot runway at max gross makes me nervous enough as it is. I wouldn't dream of taking off in those conditions with any tailwind whatsoever. All it takes is a gust somewhere along the line to drastically increase that ground roll. So, no, it was not smart. It certainly wasn't the dumbest thing I have heard of a pilot doing. That little voice in the back of your head that says, "this probably isn't a good idea", listen to it. That's your training talking to you. Live and learn.
 
Also considering the amount of inaccurate information i've heard out of an AWOS box, i'd trust the windsock over it.
 
I would say that you were alright by doing that and I understand why you did it, however, I do go with the windsock on that kind of thing also.

My biggest concern would be traffic in the area is probably going with the windsock also and a conflict of some type may have occurred.

Doing non-standard things can cause issues. This is where my concern is as a CFI. When I was doing my PPL, I went with the windsock/AWOS and 1 knot of wind. The other guy with no radios on the other end of the runway taking off while I was decided to do what "the locals do" and use the preferred runway. Long runway and his plane was dark colored. Hard to see on a hot Calif. day. Both of us turned away from each other safely thankfully and no one got hurt. I chewed him out when I got back down. My CFI had my back on that one.

So, standards in the AIM are there for a reason of safety but I will not scold you for what you did. Probably would not even mention it being certificated.

The CFI/Chief may have been upset for reasons I mentioned above or if their students were watching and might learn habits that are not desired.

Dunno, but it all worked out in the end I guess.

David
 
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I would have asked him if the letters G F and Y meant anything to him.

You did nothing wrong. It looks like you considered the situation and acted accordingly. Don't let someone on a power trip second guess yourself. There has been a number of times where I have done the same thing. (take off the "wrong" way - not go on a power trip)
 
I think you did fine, but most people coming in to a non-towered airport with ASOS reporting go by that. At least I do, unless I get surprised by the windsock on the downwind once I can see it.

If you've appropriately scanned both pattern options and made a callout, I see no problem there.
 
flhrci said:
I went with the windsock/AWOS and 1 knot of wind. The other guy with no radios on the other end of the runway taking off while I was decided to do what "the locals do" and use the preferred runway.
Click to expand...

Its called a calm wind runway and I don't think the AWOS will even report 1 knot as wind.
 
EdFred said:
This may have something to do with it:
Click to expand...

Yeah but to get your PPL you must demonstrate short field takeoffs and landings... Maybe I'm just comfortable with it because I regularly fly out of very small runways.
 
Mtns2Skies said:
Yeah but to get your PPL you must demonstrate short field takeoffs and landings... Maybe I'm just comfortable with it because I regularly fly out of very small runways.
Click to expand...

But he probably didn't do it full gross in a 172, and he may have had a CFI that said anything less than 5,000 is short. I was apprehensive doing a few things that I hadn't done in training. Then after doing them it was like, "Oh, really? That's it? Why was I worried?"
 
sacbluesman said:
So the other day I had an interesting experience and just looking for some feedback or opinions.

I was departing in a C172 from my home airport with a 3200ft runway. It was early morning and the temp was about 40+/- and winds were fairly calm. I got my engine start done and got the minute weather. Winds were reported from the N directly down the runway at 5kts but the sock was limp. My route of flight was to the S/W so I made the decision to depart on the downwind runway. Now, I'm familiar that there is a 10% increase in t/o distance for each 2kt tailwind. I had full fuel and 1 pax. I did a short field t/o just for an extra margin of safety and noticed no extra runway used up.

I got back from my x/c about 5 hours later and one of the CFIs came up to me and asks, you know you departed downwind? Then proceeded to lecture me about it and also said the chief CFI had a fit and was ****ed.

This has been eating at me for a while now because 1, I'm now second guessing my decision making abilities and 2, I felt the CFI made it a point to come across as the "instructors" know all and I don't know enough. Perhaps it was his delivery of the information but nonetheless it seemed condescending.

So here is my position. I have less than 300 hours however I still fly like a freshly minted pilot in the sense that I double check and triple check everything before I go. I got my weather but also looked at the sock to verify the info as well as noted the winds while walking around on the ramp. I know the airplanes performance capabilities as well as my personal limits.

In hindsight, I suppose I should have done a textbook departure but I felt that I knew why I was doing what I was doing and there was never any doubt of safety.

Any thoughts or opinions?
Click to expand...

Just curious, Is it your airplane or the schools? Does your AWOS -ASOS report? Can you check it on-line to see the history of what they think they saw?

I don't see an issue with what you did. Maybe someone crapped in the CFI's Wheaties that morning and you just happened to be at the wrong place and wrong time. Don't sweat it......
 
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The one concern I'd have might be wind shear -- check EVERY available windsock (they aren't always the same).

But it's been really calm the last week or so, so I really doubt it was an issue.

I don't think AWOS is accurate to 5 knots. My own experience on Saturday is that KHAF reported a 7 knot direct crosswind on the one-minute-weather, but in reality it was DEAD calm. Limp windsock and no drift on short final.

I'd ask the Chief instructor what he was so upset about, but the answer may have been that he was listening to AWOS instead of reality.

3000 feet is not at all a short runway for a 172. Sacramento is barely above sea level, and it's colder than standard. You should be able to take off and land in well under half that at given conditions.

In a light 172, I like to see if I can get off the ground at HAF before reaching the threshold (it's displaced 750 feet) to practice short field technique.

The FIRST rule of weather is that it is what it is, not what some automatic device (or a forecast!) says it is. Your airplane doesn't listen to AWOS to decide what to do.
 
sacbluesman said:
So the other day I had an interesting experience and just looking for some feedback or opinions.

I was departing in a C172 from my home airport with a 3200ft runway. It was early morning and the temp was about 40+/- and winds were fairly calm. I got my engine start done and got the minute weather. Winds were reported from the N directly down the runway at 5kts but the sock was limp.
Click to expand...

Odd. Many of the non-towered fields I have been do have a designated calm wind runway if the winds are 5 kts or less. Hard to see what the issue was, maybe just someone felt the compelling need to throw their two cents in?
 
GauzeGuy said:
Odd. Many of the non-towered fields I have been do have a designated calm wind runway if the winds are 5 kts or less. Hard to see what the issue was, maybe just someone felt the compelling need to throw their two cents in?
Click to expand...

I think he's at KEDU, and there is no designated calm wind runway in the A/FD for that airport.
 
It might depend a bit on whose plane it is. If it's yours, it's your decision. If it's a rental, it's not unreasonable for an FBO and it's CFI's to 'enforce' certain home airport procedures.

As PIC in either case, it's your call. With all else equal - level runway, obstacles, etc - this PIC would add a limp windsock to a 5 knot wind report and takeoff in the direction of the wind report just because that's my personal practice. It gives me my best chance of avoiding an unexpected tailwind, it puts the maximum runway in front of me, and gives me the best chance of fitting in with any unknown traffic. Optimization over expediency. I ding my own helmet when I choose expediency because I'm in a hurry.

Blasting one another on the ramp is a lousy way to do anything. That's the only wrong thing done here.
 
I think you should keep in mind that instructors put hard rules in place to beat concepts into the brains of student pilots who don't necessarily have the experience to make informed and safe judgment calls regarding decisions that may be contrary to these hard "rules". A little common sense is in order. You say the windsock was limp. I, like you did, typically choose the most convenient runway if wind is insignificant enough to move the windsock. 5KT of actual wind on the ground is definitely enough to move the windsock. But then there are pilots who will taxi well over a mile to take off into a theoretical 1KT headwind component, according to the ASOS, even though the windsock is limp. I'm not one of those pilots. I think you exercised common sense.

Safety-wise, you take off into the wind for two reasons - 1) climb angle and 2) touchdown speed in the event of a straight-ahead emergency landing. It's a good idea to keep in mind the effect of wind on both. But if there's not enough wind on the ground to move the windsock, then worrying about #2 is moot. And if you have a clear departure path at your airport, worrying about #1 in 5KT of wind is not worth it. But you should definitely consider climb angle and wind when your departure over trees/obstacles is not too far away. Again, common sense should rule the day.
 
Bill Watson said:
It might depend a bit on whose plane it is. If it's yours, it's your decision. If it's a rental, it's not unreasonable for an FBO and it's CFI's to 'enforce' certain home airport procedures.

As PIC in either case, it's your call.
Click to expand...

That's the salient issue. I don't care who owns the aircraft, it's none of the CFI's nevermind. Somebody doesn't like how I fly his aircraft, I'll rent from somebody else.
 
dell30rb said:
Its called a calm wind runway and I don't think the AWOS will even report 1 knot as wind.
Click to expand...

So, as a student pilot you are supposed to know that? That was the problem. I did not know.

Might have been 2 or 3 knots of wind but it was reported or I would have used the other end. Was in 1996. Do not remember any more.

David
 
You mentioned "chief pilot". I'm assuming there is a standard operating manual or a variant that you agreed to when you signed the rental agreement? If there's a clause in there that prohibits you from takeoff/landing with a tailwind, I'd say you have no excuses. If there isn't, I'd say you made a PIC decision, and the outcome did not bite you, your passenger, or your airplane, this time. Was it the best decision? No. Was it a terrible decision? Eh.

In your situation, I'd ask if saving a couple minutes flying the standard traffic pattern is worth the risks you added to your operation should things go badly. You could have taken off into landing traffic. Not everyone self announces at uncontrolled airports. You could have executed your takeoff roll when the wind suddenly picked up. You could have experienced an engine failure on climb out and the wind could push you far enough away that limits your options. Your decision to conduct a short-field takeoff should have been your final hint as to whether your decision is a good one.

But all that aside, was your decision in the best interest of safety for you, your airplane, your passenger, your friends, your family, or the public safety? Ponder on that next time you fly. If you find yourself making a decision because it's "more convenient" without considering the risks, I suggest you read the FAA's handbook on Risk Management, and participate in some WINGS seminars on the topic.
 
EdFred said:
I would have asked him if the letters G F and Y meant anything to him.

You did nothing wrong. It looks like you considered the situation and acted accordingly. Don't let someone on a power trip second guess yourself. There has been a number of times where I have done the same thing. (take off the "wrong" way - not go on a power trip)
Click to expand...


+1........

You are PIC.. They are nothing but spectators trying to tell you how big a dick they have.... Ignore them......

If it was as bad as they made it out to be, you would have known it first as you were sitting in the seat that would have crashed.... not them...

Don't let this incident rattle your confidence.:no:
 
CFI.William said:
If there isn't, I'd say you made a PIC decision, and the outcome did not bite you, your passenger, or your airplane, this time. Was it the best decision? No. Was it a terrible decision? Eh.

Not everyone self announces at uncontrolled airports. You could have executed your takeoff roll when the wind suddenly picked up. You could have experienced an engine failure on climb out and the wind could push you far enough away that limits your options.
Click to expand...

I'm not certain you read the OP's post. He said there was no wind according to the wind sock so no there was no risk. The wind could have just as easily shifted in his favor as it could have the other direction and thus no more risk than from the other runway. It was not at all a "terrible" decision.

Correct not everyone announces at self controlled airports which is why I was taught to do a 360 in the runup area to check the pattern... I would presume the OP did this.
 
William -

Did you actually read the part where he said the windsock was limp?
 
sacbluesman said:
So the other day I had an interesting experience and just looking for some feedback or opinions.

I was departing in a C172 from my home airport with a 3200ft runway. It was early morning and the temp was about 40+/- and winds were fairly calm. I got my engine start done and got the minute weather. Winds were reported from the N directly down the runway at 5kts but the sock was limp. My route of flight was to the S/W so I made the decision to depart on the downwind runway. Now, I'm familiar that there is a 10% increase in t/o distance for each 2kt tailwind. I had full fuel and 1 pax. I did a short field t/o just for an extra margin of safety and noticed no extra runway used up.

I got back from my x/c about 5 hours later and one of the CFIs came up to me and asks, you know you departed downwind? Then proceded to lecture me about it and also said the chief CFI had a fit and was ****ed.


This has been eating at me for a while now because 1, I'm now second guessing my decision making abilities and 2, I felt the CFI made it a point to come across as the "instructors" know all and I don't know enough. Perhaps it was his delivery of the information but nonetheless it seemed condescending.

So here is my position. I have less than 300 hours however I still fly like a
freshly minted pilot in the sense that I double check and triple check everything before I go. I got my weather but also looked at the sock to verify the info as well as noted the winds while walking around on the ramp. I know the airplanes performance capabilites as well as my personal limits.

In hindsight, I suppose I should have done a textbook departure but I felt that I knew why I was doing what I was doing and there was never any doubt of safety.


Any thoughts or opinions?
Click to expand...

If you we're taking a check ride which runway would you have selected?It was a bad thought process because you planted doubt in your mind from the beginning, hence your decision to perform a short field takeoff.
 
"...winds were fairly calm. I got my engine start done and got the minute weather. Winds were reported from the N directly down the runway at 5kts but the sock was limp."

Mtns2Skies and i: Do I even need to point this out?
 
CFI.William said:
"...winds were fairly calm. I got my engine start done and got the minute weather. Winds were reported from the N directly down the runway at 5kts but the sock was limp."

Mtns2Skies and i: Do I even need to point this out?
Click to expand...

Do I even need to point this out? AWOS/ASOS means NOTHING (perhaps other traffic entering the pattern but thus the 360 in the runup) if the windsock disagrees
 
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I'm not going to get into an online ****ing match with you Mtns2Skies. You're welcome to your opinion. And I respect that. Now, you can do me the favor and respect mine.
 
CFI.William said:
...... If there's a clause in there that prohibits you from takeoff/landing with a tailwind, I'd say you have no excuses..... Was it a terrible decision? Eh.

.
Click to expand...


Hmmmmm...

So, say he comes back from a flight and the wind is a crosswind varying from 260 to 280...... and he wants to land on 36 or 18.......

Come hell or high water at one point in the landing sequence he will have a tailwind and a headwind... What does he do :dunno: circle the field till the wind changes ? or he runs out of gas:dunno:..

A good CFI would have taught him how to land and takeoff with a small tailwind.. It's gonna happen to him alot during his flying career.:yes:
 
Mtns2Skies said:
Do I need to point this out? AWOS/ASOS means NOTHING (perhaps other traffic entering the pattern but thus the 360 in the runup) if the windsock disagrees
Click to expand...

No Mtns...there's wind on the ground and there's wind slightly higher up. Depending on the height of the ASOS tower, it may be reporting wind that doesn't exist at the ground...wind that you'll experience on climbout, but not necessarily at lift-off.
 
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RoscoeT said:
No Mtns...there's wind on the ground and there's wind slightly higher up.
Click to expand...

Oh I always thought they were at ground level I apparently thought wrong... What about this scenario (completely hypothetical) AWOS/ASOS is reporting for one runway and the windsock advocates for the reciprocal... then what? :dunno: It would imply windshear for sure.
 
CFI.William said:
I'm not going to get into an online ****ing match with you Mtns2Skies. You're welcome to your opinion. And I respect that. Now, you can do me the favor and respect mine.
Click to expand...

Don't argue with someone as experienced as Mtns. LOL. :lol: See the Richard_SWave thread.
 
There is a broader point to be made given the OP's experience level. He had a choice to make and he chose expediency. He wasn't sure in his own mind if he had selected the best runway. Bad habit to form.
 
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