Mandatory reporting points

MooneyDriver78

MooneyDriver78

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Tom
Regs say that I have to report if NOT in radar contact.
My ? Is, how will I know if ATC has me on radar, do they tell you when they lose contact?
We don't have many of these on the east coast.
And why do I have to tell them the current time, seems to me that's extra info they can figure out on their own.


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ATC......"Radar Contact Lost."


They need the time since you will not be transmitting a position report at the exact moment you cross the fix. Often the frequency is congested.

"They" can't figure it out since you are out of radar contact.
 
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As said above "N12345 radar contact lost."

Time is important because ATC is using that for separation. That's why TAS changes (10 kts / 5 %) is important. as well as greater than 3 mins at your next fix. ATC is separating by time and in some cases DME.

You're right, there aren't many compulsory reporting points out east but if ATC loses radar you can bet they'll be telling you to report any fix that's needed for separation.
 
teejayevans said:
And why do I have to tell them the current time, seems to me that's extra info they can figure out on their own.
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You don't have to report the current time, just the time you crossed the fix, which may not be the same. It may take a minute or two to write down the time you crossed the fix, compute your estimate to the next fix (not everyone has GPS), and determine the name of the next fix as required for the "PTA-TEN" reporting format:

Position
Time
Altitude
Type
Estimate
Next

If you are able to report exactly as you cross, you can omit the crossing time by saying "Center, Cessna 123, Bungo intersection now", but otherwise, they need the time you actually crossed. And remember that these rules were written when a fix crossing often involved a conversation something like this:

"Navigator to Pilot, approaching Bungo, turn left new heading 045 in five, four, three, two, one, now, left 045."
"Pilot to Navigator, turning left new heading 045."
Navigator logs time of arrival, computes actual leg time, computes actual leg ground speed, recomputes wind, and then computes new estimate to next reporting point using pencil, paper, and E-6B.
"Navigator to Pilot, I have our position report, ready to transmit."
"Pilot to Navigator, the radio is yours."
Navigator: "Center, Army 42756, position report."
Center: "Army 42756, Center, go ahead."
Navigator: "Center, Army 42756, passed Bungo at 36, seven thousand feet, IFR, estimating Gonzo at 55, Pooky next."
"Navigator to Pilot, transmission complete."

As you can see, the position report might actually be transmitted several minutes later than the crossing time. However, ATC needs the actual crossing time in order to ensure proper separation.
 
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This helps a lot. I wondered how I was supposed to have all this information at my finger tips at the exact moment when I cross, all while trying to turn to the proper course and climb/descend to the proper altitude. The answer is that I don't have to. I can call a few minutes later.
 
Ron Levy said:
Navigator: "Center, Army 42756, passed Bungo at 36, seven thousand feet, IFR, estimating Gonzo at 55, Pooky next."
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Those times should be four digits, though, not two.

As you can see, the position report might actually be transmitted several minutes later than the crossing time.
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Especially true when oceanic and you're using HF radios. I can take several minutes to get through due to RF conditions or frequency congestion. Additionally, you're likely not talking to ATC but to ARINC who copies your report and forwards it to the ATC facility so that adds even more delay.
 
Larry in TN said:
Those times should be four digits, though, not two.
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Only the last two, unless referring to a time more than one hour in the past (at least, that's how I was taught both civilian and military). As it says in the AIM:
d. Time may be stated in minutes only (two figures) in radiotelephone communications when no misunderstanding is likely to occur.
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Ron Levy said:
Only the last two, unless referring to a time more than one hour in the past (at least, that's how I was taught both civilian and military). As it says in the AIM:
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FWIW, this is an area the AIM is giving you bad advice. It should be in a 4 number format, especially in foreign airspace.

I spend a lot of time these days doing position reports in my daily flying and I never here anyone using a two number format.
 
Ron Levy said:
And remember that these rules were written when a fix crossing often involved a conversation something like this:
[...]
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And often yet another layer in that they would be communicating with a radio operator at a flight service station who would then relay the message to ATC, and relay ATC's response back. Direct communication with enroute ATC is a relatively new invention.
 
Last time I was bopping through Seymour Johnson's airspace when their radar was out they asked for every intersection on the airway. Pushing the EXPAND button on the 480 FPL made that easy peazy ... gives the ETA for each successive point...just fill in the blanks on PTATEN.
 
RotorAndWing said:
FWIW, this is an area the AIM is giving you bad advice. It should be in a 4 number format, especially in foreign airspace.
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I thought this discussion was about operations in the USA. As it says in the front of the book, the AIM provides procedures for use in the US National Airspace System. However, if you're asking about operations elsewhere, applying the AIM to foreign airspace would be inappropriate.
I spend a lot of time these days doing position reports in my daily flying and I never here anyone using a two number format.
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IIRC, R&W's "daily flying" is in Asia, not the USA. If in foreign airspace, do what the publications for that airspace say, but in the USA, do what the AIM says.
 
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Larry in TN said:
Not on position reports.
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There is nothing wrong with using four digits for recent times in position reports in the US National Airspace System, but there is no requirement to do so. If you do choose to do that, just make sure you correctly convert your clock time to Zulu when you do.
 
Ron Levy said:
There is nothing wrong with using four digits for recent times in position reports in the US National Airspace System, but there is no requirement to do so. If you do choose to do that, just make sure you correctly convert your clock time to Zulu when you do.
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That is not how it is done.

Convert my clock to zulu? The clocks are already on UTC.
 
RotorAndWing said:
FWIW, this is an area the AIM is giving you bad advice. It should be in a 4 number format, especially in foreign airspace.

I spend a lot of time these days doing position reports in my daily flying and I never here anyone using a two number format.
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AIM is not the only one, FAA pub "Instrument Procedures Handbook" also uses 2digit format in their examples, I think if it was a problem they would have fixed it by now.



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pericynthion said:
And often yet another layer in that they would be communicating with a radio operator at a flight service station who would then relay the message to ATC, and relay ATC's response back. Direct communication with enroute ATC is a relatively new invention.
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Relative to what? Enroute ATC began in 1935, direct communication with enroute ATC began in 1949.
 
roncachamp said:
Relative to what? Enroute ATC began in 1935, direct communication with enroute ATC began in 1949.
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relative to Napoleon's defeat at Waterloo
relative to the signing of the Magna Carta
relative to the construction of the pyramids of Giza
relative to the beginning of continental drift

should I go on?
 
Ron Levy said:
I thought this discussion was about operations in the USA.
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Please show in the OP where this subject is limited to US operations only. :rolleyes:

Ron Levy said:
IIRC, R&W's "daily flying" is in Asia, not the USA. If in foreign airspace, do what the publications for that airspace say, but in the USA, do what the AIM says.
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I have done quite a bit of flying in the US airspace as well using position reports. And always used the four number sequence for time.

While the AIM "recommends" the 2 number sequence, there is nothing prohibiting the pilot from using a more appropriate 4 number sequence since this is on standard with the rest of the world.
 
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teejayevans said:
AIM is not the only one, FAA pub "Instrument Procedures Handbook" also uses 2digit format in their examples, I think if it was a problem they would have fixed it by now.



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It's not a problem. However clear and concise communications are good. Pretty much everywhere else in the world uses the 4 number sequence. Especially in areas of weak communications either VHF or HF it will reduce radio time and be much clearer using the full format rather than repeating it over.
 
Clark1961 said:
relative to Napoleon's defeat at Waterloo
relative to the signing of the Magna Carta
relative to the construction of the pyramids of Giza
relative to the beginning of continental drift

should I go on?
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If you like, but I'm pretty sure you're not in a position to speak for pericynthion.
 
Ron Levy said:
Perhaps not in your cockpit, but that is how I was taught in both Navy and civilian training. YMMV.
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Spend some time of the frequencies where IFR position reports are used and you'll see that it is always done with four digits. I can't recall ever hearing a flight use two-digit times when giving full position reports and I've spent a lot of time flying in oceanic and other airspace where non-radar procedures are used.

Military phraseology is different. We hear poor (by IACO standards) phraseology from military pilots all around the world.

Only if you set it that way, and in my experience, most owner/pilots don't.
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I don't understand why you go so far out of your way to be difficult. You assume that privately owned GA airplanes make up the majority of the IFR/ATC system's users. They don't.

FMS systems display time in UTC. Has nothing to do with how I set it.
 
Oh please, airline pilots or anyone who has been flying for a long time are some of the worst phraseology offenders around. Slang, not acknowledging with their call signs, excess verbiage etc. Don't link military to poor phraseology when they use the same standards as civilians.
 
roncachamp said:
Relative to what? Enroute ATC began in 1935, direct communication with enroute ATC began in 1949.
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Relative to the mental picture that Ron's conversation conjured up for me of a B-17 crew with handlebar moustaches.
 
pericynthion said:
Relative to the mental picture that Ron's conversation conjured up for me of a B-17 crew with handlebar moustaches.
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The last B-17 in USAF service was retired a decade after direct communication with enroute ATC began.
 
Thanks Steven. Can you confirm the style of facial hair with which they would have been equipped?
 
Well, back the OP. Yes, ATC will say "radar contact lost". If you're flying IFR, you should expect to have to do position reports. Flying night cargo, I sometimes was required to give them, as the FAA took the radar sites down for maintainence.

Flying jets, it's always easy to give reports and was often required overseas. You can use the information from your GPS in the same way. If you don't, use can use mental math to figure ETA's.
 
teejayevans said:
I don't think my mental math is accurate enough :)
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It's not as hard as you think. The good news is you can still be 3 minutes off and still be good.

60 kts ground speed is one mile per minute, therefore:

90 kts is 11/2 mi per minute

120 kts is 2 mi per minute

150 kts is 2 1/2 mi per minute

180 kts is 3 miles per minute

Anything faster is just bragging and a lie ;)
 
jonnyjetprop said:
It's not as hard as you think. The good news is you can still be 3 minutes off and still be good.

60 kts ground speed is one mile per minute, therefore:

90 kts is 11/2 mi per minute

120 kts is 2 mi per minute

150 kts is 2 1/2 mi per minute

180 kts is 3 miles per minute

Anything faster is just bragging and a lie ;)
Click to expand...

Similar to the "cheat card" we had in our wallets when I did ATC. Think it went all the way up to 250 kts. Fortunately I never had to pull it out and use it. Radar outages were rare.
 
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