Malaysia Airlines Flight 370

[olasek]

I'm just saying if they had all of this data they would know exactly where the plane was.

Very poor logic.
They have this data which still gives them the overall directionality of flight eliminating other choices. When processed this data gives them approximate location with probability distribution ( I suspect Math is not you strong subject), the notion that I either know exactly the location or I know nothing is ludicrous.

 

[JOhnH]

Not on CNN.com yet...

I beieve that was sarcasm.

 

[FloridaPilot]

You misunderstand. No one is saying the plane had insufficient fuel to reach its intended destination. Rather, the plane diverted until it had flown much, much further than its intended destination. It eventually ran out of fuel, because it didn't hit anything first and its fuel supply was not infinite.

Thanks for the comment,

I got it now. So if the plane diverted was it because it had problems? If it did why would they point it in a direction to run out of fuel?

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Thanks for the comment,

I got it now. So if the plane diverted was it because it had problems? If it did why would they point it in a direction to run out of fuel?

You are asking questions that can't be answered with the information available.

 

[olasek]

So if the plane diverted was it because it had problems? If it did why would they point it in a direction to run out of fuel?

Diversion for technical reasons is rather incompatible with the way this aircraft flew. I am not saying it is impossible, just highly improbable, this is my opinion only. And if it wasn't a diversion for technical reasons what/who/why was behind it? These are your $64,000 questions.

 

[Art VanDelay]

Boeing better hope it was not those Recirc fans. If it turns out those were an issue it could hobble the entire 777 fleet from an ETOPS standpoint until they re-engineer something.

 

[Henning]

Boeing better hope it was not those Recirc fans. If it turns out those were an issue it could hobble the entire 777 fleet from an ETOPS standpoint until they re-engineer something.

Please explain, sounds interesting, what do the Recirc fans do?

 

[Silvaire]

Exactly what their name implies - recirculate air in the cabin. They have nothing to do with pressurization, you could turn them off if you want.

 

[acrophile]

Thanks for the comment,

I got it now. So if the plane diverted was it because it had problems? If it did why would they point it in a direction to run out of fuel?

One speculation discussed earlier (here and elsewhere) is that they may have diverted in the direction of a suitable airport, but the crew was incapacitated before getting there, so the plane kept going out to sea. No one knows yet, though.

 

[Henning]

Exactly what their name implies - recirculate air in the cabin. They have nothing to do with pressurization, you could turn them off if you want.

So outside of being structurally weak and blowing out causing a loss of pressure (I'm assuming that they are pressurized ), how could these units lead to this type of failure?

 

[timwinters]

Let's not forget that they had a large load of lithium batteries in the cargo hold...or so it's been reported...

 

[FloridaPilot]

Boeing better hope it was not those Recirc fans. If it turns out those were an issue it could hobble the entire 777 fleet from an ETOPS standpoint until they re-engineer something.

If the plane is at the bottom of the ocean and they find it, do you think it will be intact enough for the FAA to determine what the cause was? How would they ever bring it back to the surface?

 

[timwinters]

Hint, almost all here are pilots but only a few actually fly big iron. Find out who they are and listen to them when events like this are being discussed

The rest of us, not so much. I fly a 182. Asking me to give an opinion is like asking a kid riding a tricycle to opine on how a Harley handles in the curves.

 

[FloridaPilot]

Hint, almost all here are pilots but only a few actually fly big iron. Find out who they are and listen to them when events like this are being discussed

The rest of us, not so much. I fly a 182. Asking me to give an opinion is like asking a kid riding a tricycle to opine on how a Harley handles in the curves.

 

[Henning]

If the plane is at the bottom of the ocean and they find it, do you think it will be intact enough for the FAA to determine what the cause was? How would they ever bring it back to the surface?

Ever hear of the Glomar Explorer?

 

[FloridaPilot]

Ever hear of the Glomar Explorer?

Yes,

If the Airplane is at the bottom of the ocean it's VERY difficult to bring it up intact, the pressure of the entire ocean is pushing down on the plane if it's at the bottom of the ocean. Hopefully they can find the flight recorder so it will shed some light onto what happened.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

Actually the pressure of the entire ocean is pressing on it from all sides. Once the air in it has escaped, the airplane really doesn't care what the pressure is.

 

[Greg Bockelman]

If the plane is at the bottom of the ocean and they find it, do you think it will be intact enough for the FAA to determine what the cause was?

Well since it was not an American airplane, the FAA really has no interest in it unless the Malaysian government asks for assistance.

 

[N801BH]

Actually the pressure of the entire ocean is pressing on it from all sides. Once the air in it has escaped, the airplane really doesn't care what the pressure is.

Agreed,,,, the pressure in equalized.....
If,, and this is a BIG if the plane is still intact, a few airbags inserted in the fuselage can bring it up without damaging it further....

And that is assuming the plane is in the drink to start with...

 

[timwinters]

If the pressure didn't equalize then it would have floated like an inner tube.

 

[olasek]

If the plane is at the bottom of the ocean and they find it, do you think it will be intact enough for the FAA to determine what the cause was? How would they ever bring it back to the surface?

Why would they have to bring the whole plane to the surface?
It is enough to get the black boxes.
By the way FAA will have nothing to do with this investigation.

 

[N801BH]

Why would they have to bring the whole plane to the surface?
It is enough to get the black boxes.
By the way FAA will have nothing to do with this investigation.

To recover the bodies...............

 

[olasek]

Bodies can be recovered (those that can be recovered) leaving most of the structure behind (AF447).

 

[flyingcheesehead]

Well since it was not an American airplane, the FAA really has no interest in it unless the Malaysian government asks for assistance.

But since it was an American-built airplane flown by many American airlines, the NTSB will certainly be chomping at the bit to assist.

So will CNN.

 

[Slipkid65]

One speculation discussed earlier (here and elsewhere) is that they may have diverted in the direction of a suitable airport, but the crew was incapacitated before getting there, so the plane kept going out to sea. No one knows yet, though.

While we don't have nearly enough info to narrow down the speculation too much, something along these lines makes the most sense to me.

A fire, rapid or explosive decompression, possibly in the E&E bay, and they start punching in waypoints into the CDU to return to a known airport, and are rendered unconscious before getting them all entered. The airplane will then follow the waypoints until it hits the end of the programmed route, at which point it will maintain heading until it runs out of fuel.

 

[Art VanDelay]

Please explain, sounds interesting, what do the Recirc fans do?

I'm talking about the recirc fans for the forward electronics equipment compartment. Without going into extravagant detail the system is a weak point. I had one catch fire on me in a 777 while on a Polar route to Asia a few years ago. Fortunately we were able to remove power to it. It very quickly filled the cockpit and part of first class with smoke.

They need not recover the aircraft whole to determine this just the FDAU would be enough. The 777 has a very complex FDAU that can pretty much regurgitate the value of every onboard parameter as well as individual switch positions.

 

[Silvaire]

I've never heard of recirc or equipment cooling fans being considered a "weak point" despite there being instances of smoke from them. There have also been cases of smoke on a 777 from galleys, overhead electronics units (which control passenger reading and call lights), and a cockpit printer. There have also been cases of smoke on Airbus aircraft from various sources including fans.

Any electrical or electronic component has the potential to create smoke but these are not devices that are going to burst out in white hot flames, melt a gaping hole in the fuselage, incapacitate the crew and bring the airplane down. Even the batteries on the 787 that completely nuked themselves did not breach the original containment box and the new, redesigned containment boxes look like the reactor core out of a nuclear submarine.

 

[Ghery]

Even the batteries on the 787 that completely nuked themselves did not breach the original containment box and the new, redesigned containment boxes look like the reactor core out of a nuclear submarine.

Do you know what the reactor core in a nuclear submarine looks like? Just curious.

BTW, my first job out of college was at Mare Island Naval Shipyard overhauling and refueling nuclear submarines.

I'd be a lot happier knowing that the containment boxes were more like the reactor vessel, as opposed to the core.

 

[gismo]

Personally, I think it wandered into a hard core storm and ended up back in 1941.

I'd believe that just as much as the garbage the media is spewing!

If it went to the past we'd probably have a record of it's arrival so it must have gone to the future.

 

[mikea]

TIGHAR is on it. Any day now they will have a lead.

And for only a small donation, they will be able to find it!

News! They found a Dippity-Do lid floating in the (Atlantic) ocean and upon further research determined that the flight had women on it that might have been carry Dippity-Do!

They just need $500,000 to conduct further research.

 

[mikea]

Why would they have to bring the whole plane to the surface?
It is enough to get the black boxes.
By the way FAA will have nothing to do with this investigation.

Depends on if there was a Kennedy onboard.

We would have known by now because the Navy would have sent a carrier group.

 

[olasek]

There could be a new evidence that someone was tampering with electrical system on-board this aircraft:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...vestigation-into-missing-plane-continues.html

 

[Henning]

Yes,

If the Airplane is at the bottom of the ocean it's VERY difficult to bring it up intact, the pressure of the entire ocean is pushing down on the plane if it's at the bottom of the ocean. Hopefully they can find the flight recorder so it will shed some light onto what happened.

The pressure 'pushing down' on the plane is next to nothing. Yes, it's difficult, but we have the equipment to do it should they want to, doubtful though. If the find the boxes they'll likely just cut those out and bring them up with a ROV, if it's less than 2000' of water they may send a guy in a WASP or similar 1atm suit.

 

[olasek]

VERY difficult to bring it up intact, the pressure of the entire ocean is pushing down on the plane if it's at the bottom of the ocean.

Wow, wow!
This is an extraordinarily bad Physics, even bad by high school standards.
Actually the pressure is pushing the plane (slightly) up, not down, Mr. Archimedes said so.
(too bad I missed this statement earlier but I simply can't let it go without a commentary)

 

[acrophile]

Wow, wow! This is an extraordinarily bad [p]hysics, even bad by high school standards.

Correcting the physics is fine, but disparaging the poster's physics knowledge seems unnecessarily rude.

 

[azure]

Wow, wow!
This is an extraordinarily bad Physics, even bad by high school standards.

In my experience, that's actually par for the course by COLLEGE intro physics standards. Non-major (or non-engineering) students have a terribly hard time with Archimedes' principle, not just understanding why it works but applying it in the real world.

Actually the pressure is pushing the plane (slightly) up, not down, Mr. Archimedes said so.

And to make that 100% clear (I hope), it's pushing it slightly up because the pressure at the top of the plane (which pushes down on the plane) is slightly less than the pressure at the bottom (which pushes up) because pressure in the ocean increases with depth. The other force involved is that of gravity, i.e. the weight of the plane, and that is greater than the net buoyant force (which is slightly up) since the plane's metallic components make its average density greater than that of seawater.

 

[Clark1961]

Wow, wow!
This is an extraordinarily bad Physics, even bad by high school standards.
Actually the pressure is pushing the plane (slightly) up, not down, Mr. Archimedes said so.
(too bad I missed this statement earlier but I simply can't let it go without a commentary)

Too bad you've never pulled anything up from the ocean floor. It doesn't quite work the way you are claiming. In fact, ya gotta pull purty darn hard on some objects...

 

[jsstevens]

Too bad you've never pulled anything up from the ocean floor. It doesn't quite work the way you are claiming. In fact, ya gotta pull purty darn hard on some objects...

Well, there can be suction effects from the mud or other soft seafloor that make it hard to get something moving. Once free of the suction, however, normal buoyancy rules (i.e. Archimedes Principle) apply. It's not the water pressure that holds it down as such, it's the inability of the water to get under the object and allow it to move up. Just like a suction cup.

John

Edit: Because I couldn't spell buoyancy

 

[olasek]

In fact, ya gotta pull purty darn hard on some objects...

yeah, because such objects can be very heavy no matter what and any operation at such depth is very difficult. But please no fairy-tales about water pressing it down.

Well, there can be suction effects from the mud or other soft seafloor that make it hard to get something moving.

Actually any silt or mud is fine, pressure travels through it just fine.
The 'suction' effect would require extraordinary hard and uniformly flat surface. With irregularity of typical wreckage it isn't going to be any factor.

 

[N801BH]

yeah, because such objects can be very heavy no matter what and any operation at such depth is very difficult. But please no fairy-tales about water pressing it down.


Actually any silt or mud is fine, pressure travels through it just fine.
The 'suction' effect would require extraordinary hard and uniformly flat surface. With irregularity of typical wreckage it isn't going to be any factor.

You have obviously NEVER walked through mug.... I can remember walking over/ through mud flats in South Fla and even at ankle deep mud,,,it will suck the tightly laced tennis shoes off your feet... EVERY time....