Major problem on takeoff. Need some guidance on how to correct!

[peerlesscowboy]

He said he's never experienced this before. He takes the Young Eagles up all the time and they do it without problem. The only thing he does with them is manage the throttle. He said he's going to give it a few more shots, and if I can't grasp it, I need to call it quits before someone gets hurt.

If I were you I'd be shopping for a new instructor. The instructors job is to teach you how to do it, if he isn't up to the task find somebody who is.

 

[SPAJC]

Agree with SixPapaCharlie.....maybe the fact that he is a retired airline pilot is skewing his opinion a little. He has extensive experience with pilots who have equivalent or equal experience. He is dealing with a brand new 1st time student and a little patience is warranted. You can't be expected to be perfect by any means on your first lesson. I think the chair flying is a great idea also. I had a short lived bad habit on landings of releasing the back pressure as soon as I touched down, which would allow the nose wheel to slam onto the runway. I did it consistently all day with about 15 landings and was quite literally being yelled at by my instructor. I went home and chair flew the landings for several hours. Now i'm getting close to 100 hours and haven't done it since that day with the instructor. It started off as a conscious thing at first, then with time, it became second nature. Don't even think about it now.... Just do it right. Keep at it and if he suggests calling quits after just a couple of hours, spend the $50 and fly with another CFI for a lesson and see what they say. A couple of hours is not enough in my opinion to tell someone to give it up.


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[SPAJC]

Agree with Peerlesscowboy also!


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[Checkout_my_Six]

GET YOUR HAND OFF THE YOKE.........just two fingers and your thumb.


thank you.....the management.

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

In addition, some pilots initially find the rudder pedals seem to work "backwards". It's a contentious allegation, but I have no doubt it can throw some new pilots off a bit.

Why is that contentious?

If your mental model is that the rudder pedals are directly attached to the front wheel like a bicycle handlebar would be (not too far fetched for a new pilot), which foot would you push with to turn left?

 

[FastEddieB]

Why is that contentious?

Lord only knows, but when it's come up before the debate over it has become heated.

 

[FastEddieB]

I had a short lived bad habit on landings of releasing the back pressure as soon as I touched down, which would allow the nose wheel to slam onto the runway.

I have seen that reflex recur when giving tailwheel instruction.

Student finally makes a perfect "3-point" landing, but then immediately relaxes back pressure and the tail lightens enough that swerving can be an issue.

Short term fix? Have the student reach over with his or her other hand so that both hands are involved holding the yoke or stick back. It has worked for me in the past with students.

Once they get over the "relax reflex", it's time to have them move their other hand back to covering the throttle.

 

[Jaybird180]

Why is that contentious?

If your mental model is that the rudder pedals are directly attached to the front wheel like a bicycle handlebar would be (not too far fetched for a new pilot), which foot would you push with to turn left?

you mean to tell me, they don't work that way

 

[FastEddieB]

The bicycle handlebar analogy is OK, but a bit flawed.

Because "countersteering" opens up a whole 'nother can of worms.

In any case, think sled:

Pushing with your right foot turns you left, and vice versa, and both seem perfectly intuitive.

Same with a basic soap box racer:

In a classic case of "negative transfer", the more time you have on either of the above contraptions, the more likely it will be that the aircraft rudder control will seem backwards at first.

Sorry for the hijack - for those interested, there are extant threads on the topic elsewhere on this site.

 

[stevenhmiller]

All good advice. Trying to meet with him today to discuss. If all fails, I'll comment here and open a new post for a new CFI in my neck of the woods. I have way too much $$$ invested to call it quits.

 

[Sac Arrow]

I think maybe you're fixated on an airplane being a car that flies. Just get the car mentality out of your mindset. Pretend it's a sailboat. Anything but a car.

 

[SixPapaCharlie]

I think maybe you're fixated on an airplane being a car that flies. Just get the car mentality out of your mindset. Pretend it's a sailboat. Anything but a car.

I sometimes pretend it is a spaceship. For short field takeoffs, I do a countdown to "blastoff" and I get FF from "Mission Control". It is very convincing when I am south of here talking to "houston ctr"

Once in the pattern there was a plane in front of me so I fired my lasers uttering to myself "I have a lock on him. pew pew pew!"

Mrs 6PC looks at me and says "Seriously? Do you do this when you are alone in the plane?"


duh.

 

[mkosmo]

I sometimes pretend it is a spaceship. For short field takeoffs, I do a countdown to "blastoff" and I get FF from "Mission Control". It is very convincing when I am south of here talking to "houston ctr"

Once in the pattern there was a plane in front of me so I fired my lasers uttering to myself "I have a lock on him. pew pew pew!"

Mrs 6PC looks at me and says "Seriously? Do you do this when you are alone in the plane?"


duh.

And now this is going to creep in my head and I won't be able to stop it from happening.

 

[MAKG1]

I sometimes pretend it is a spaceship. For short field takeoffs, I do a countdown to "blastoff" and I get FF from "Mission Control". It is very convincing when I am south of here talking to "houston ctr"

Pfft. Those of us in the know get our flight following from Starfleet.

Especially when we can fly right over Command (Ft. Baker, Marin County) and buzz the United Federation of Planets (Presidio).

I wonder how many schmucks start diversion requests in your neck of the woods with "Houston, we have a problem."

 

[Sac Arrow]

Pfft. Those of us in the know get our flight following from Starfleet.

Especially when we can fly right over Command (Ft. Baker, Marin County) and buzz the United Federation of Planets (Presidio).

I wonder how many schmucks start diversion requests in your neck of the woods with "Houston, we have a problem."

Nothing worse than taking off with Klingons after a fuel and restroom stop.

 

[SixPapaCharlie]

Pfft. Those of us in the know get our flight following from Starfleet.

Especially when we can fly right over Command (Ft. Baker, Marin County) and buzz the United Federation of Planets (Presidio).

I wonder how many schmucks start diversion requests in your neck of the woods with "Houston, we have a problem."

If I ever have an emergency, I really hope I am on with Houston.
Just to have the comms in the NTSB report and shared on this forum

 

[ElPaso Pilot]

The bicycle handlebar analogy is OK, but a bit flawed.

Because "countersteering" opens up a whole 'nother can of worms.

In any case, think sled:

Pushing with your right foot turns you left, and vice versa, and both seem perfectly intuitive.

OK. Point made.

I should have used this picture, as the wheel count matches anyways.

 

[Sac Arrow]

OK. Point made.

I should have used this picture, as the wheel count matches anyways.

Only on the ground. In the air, it's more like a two wheel bicycle.

 

[FastEddieB]

I like the tricycle example better.

Also works with my hack:

Taken at Fontana Lodge in NC Saturday. That's Karen playing monkey in the sidecar, and a friend who goes by the nickname Pirate.

In any case, push on the right handlebar, rig goes left. Unless I "fly" the sidecar, when it reverts to countersteering.

I think - now I'm confused!

 

[son_of_a_gun]

Good idea, keep your hands in your lap so you can ONLY steer with your feet. That would probably help cement things. Then add the yoke back in.

My instructor and I taxied around the ramp for awhile, my right hand on the throttle, my left under my leg until my urge to steer with my hands settled down.

 

[stevenhmiller]

My instructor and I taxied around the ramp for awhile, my right hand on the throttle, my left under my leg until my urge to steer with my hands settled down.

Thanks for getting back on topic.

 

[VictorValencia]

Not something I really can do. he's a real close friend, and knows his stuff better than anyone I've ever come in contact with. He knows flying these planes better than anyone I have ever had the pleasure of meeting. He's brilliant with flight. He's very opinionated, but I guess that goes with the territory.

There is a big difference between someone that knows how to fly
and someone that can teach you how to fly. Just because the instructor
has tons of experience does not mean he's a good instructor for you.

The sign of a good instructor is one that can determine the root problem
and has a great way to overcome that problem. Anyone who says
that you should give up is not committed enough to teaching.

It's incredibly generous of him/her to help you out as a friend
but you may need a different sort of instructor for this phase
of your training.

Good luck!

Victor

 

[stevenhmiller]

There is a big difference between someone that knows how to fly
and someone that can teach you how to fly. Just because the instructor
has tons of experience does not mean he's a good instructor for you.

The sign of a good instructor is one that can determine the root problem
and has a great way to overcome that problem. Anyone who says
that you should give up is not committed enough to teaching.

It's incredibly generous of him/her to help you out as a friend
but you may need a different sort of instructor for this phase
of your training.

Good luck!

Victor

I'm realizing this point now. I agree. Thanks for the input.

 

[gws]

I'm at a loss for how to correct this and stop trying to use the yoke to steer.

Steven, lot's of folks just learning do the same thing. Practice, practice, practice. You''l get over it.

 

[Skip Miller]

Agree. Did you do some taxi practice first? My instructor had me taxi the plane all over the airport twisting the yoke left and right.

OP, this is the answer. Go out with your CFI and just taxi around at slow speed, gradually increasing speed as you get the hang of it. Keep your left hand on your lap and your right one on the throttle.

-Skip

 

[stevenhmiller]

OP, this is the answer. Go out with your CFI and just taxi around at slow speed, gradually increasing speed as you get the hang of it. Keep your left hand on your lap and your right one on the throttle.

-Skip

I had a chat with my CFI today. We discussed the possible cause and determined it's my lack of focusing on a distant point, coupled with anticipating p-factor before it happens and immediately pressing right rudder, followed by left rudder. Overcompensating.

One of the posters here (forget who at the moment) suggested to simply start the takeoff and not do any rudder until I start to drift, then only compensate minimally. If I start to drift too far to the right, ease up on the right rudder and let p-factor bring me back toward the left. Basically, it appears that my nerves are kicking in and I'm overcompensating with the opposite rudder and when the swerve happens suddenly, I freak and revert to what I know, and that's trying to steer like a car.

We're going to work on this and practice until it's easily done every time.

 

[N801BH]

I had a chat with my CFI today. We discussed the possible cause and determined it's my lack of focusing on a distant point, coupled with anticipating p-factor before it happens and immediately pressing right rudder, followed by left rudder. Overcompensating.

One of the posters here (forget who at the moment) suggested to simply start the takeoff and not do any rudder until I start to drift, then only compensate minimally. If I start to drift too far to the right, ease up on the right rudder and let p-factor bring me back toward the left. Basically, it appears that my nerves are kicking in and I'm overcompensating with the opposite rudder and when the swerve happens suddenly, I freak and revert to what I know, and that's trying to steer like a car.

We're going to work on this and practice until it's easily done every time.

Sounds like you guys have a plan and are the same page.. Congrats..

 

[48dodge]

I have to say if you're still very early in your training your are definitely worrying way to much about this. It's good to think about it and work on correcting it but it'll come. Quite a while after soloing I flew one day and realized it felt like there was no rudder input from me, but that was just due to me subconsciously adding in the correct amount.

 

[EdFred]

It's your first lesson. Relax, it will get better.

 

[woodchucker]

First off regarding right rudder, your latest comment was really the solution... don't use any rudder at all until the plane indicates it wants to start wandering. Then just gentle with it... flight controls are normally gentle movements anyways... unless you are the Red Baron.

Secondly, as a general principle, it is never a great idea to learn from good friends or SOs. Whether it be skiing, driving a clutch, or flying. It is far too easy to be judgemental and biased. I used to be a ski instructor, but I refused to teach my wife how to ski. Actually, she didn't want to learn how to ski anyways so it's a bad example... but if she had I would have refused! I realize you are sort of in a pinch regarding the aircraft location. Give your current CFI some more time, and see how it goes, but if he gets on your case about stuff too easily and starts taking the fun out of it, I would recommend finding a CFI who will travel. You would probably have to pay a bit more, but it would be worth your sanity and safety. Btw, the first lesson should NOT be about takeoffs. I checked my logbook, and my first lesson was one takeoff and one landing. My CFI shadowed me on the takeoff, and I shadowed him on the landing, but the rest was just climbs, descents and banks, plus radio work.

 

[TommyG]

I will agree with the majority and say your instructor, isn't an instructor. 1- your first flight should be up in the air showing you how the controls work, and so that you get a feel for the controls, such as the rudder pedals. I do t even let my students do the take off on the first flight. 2- I think this guy saying someone might get hurt, doesn't want to instruct or just outright doesn't know how to instruct. Your struggle on the first flight is nothing to even worry about. You are in a phase of training that you shouldn't even be worrying about this. And if this is your friend calling it quits already, sometimes you just don't mix friends with business.

 

[Lawreston]

I'm at a loss as to why you would takeoff four times on your first lesson, and why the CFI would suggest quitting. Seriously, wtf.

- - and I'm just "connecting" that you own an Archer prior to taking Lesson #1. Wow! and congratulations. Such ownership is commonly the dream of nearly every new student, they who likely started in a Cessna C-150, Piper Cherokee 140, or other similar category aircraft.

HR

 

[stevenhmiller]

- - and I'm just "connecting" that you own an Archer prior to taking Lesson #1. Wow! and congratulations. Such ownership is commonly the dream of nearly every new student, they who likely started in a Cessna C-150, Piper Cherokee 140, or other similar category aircraft.

HR

Thanks. Yes, it's a beautiful plane with full avionics.