Major problem on takeoff. Need some guidance on how to correct!

stevenhmiller

stevenhmiller

Pre-takeoff checklist
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Steve's Archer
I'm a new student pilot. Been behind the yoke for one day and have done 4 takeoffs. The first takeoff was like a drunken sailor walking down the street, not able to walk a straight line. The second takeoff, I had the left hand on the yoke, and right on the throttle. From a stop, as soon as we began to roll, I applied right rudder to counter the P-factor. I started to swerve and countered with the other rudder, all the while taking my hand off the throttle and trying to steer the yoke like a car! I did this three times, and each time the instructor had to grab control. I just can't seem to get the ingrained "this is not steered like a car" mentality out of my mind. One time this happened when I had a slight left crosswind upon takeoff and wound up steering the yoke to the right!!!

I thought maybe I was pressing the brakes instead of the rudder pedals, but my instructor said he watched and I was not on the brakes during the steering.

I'm at a loss for how to correct this and stop trying to use the yoke to steer.
 
stevenhmiller said:
I'm a new student pilot. Been behind the yoke for one day and have done 4 takeoffs. The first takeoff was like a drunken sailor walking down the street, not able to walk a straight line. The second takeoff, I had the left hand on the yoke, and right on the throttle. From a stop, as soon as we began to roll, I applied right rudder to counter the P-factor. I started to swerve and countered with the other rudder, all the while taking my hand off the throttle and trying to steer the yoke like a car! I did this three times, and each time the instructor had to grab control. I just can't seem to get the ingrained "this is not steered like a car" mentality out of my mind. One time this happened when I had a slight left crosswind upon takeoff and wound up steering the yoke to the right!!!

I thought maybe I was pressing the brakes instead of the rudder pedals, but my instructor said he watched and I was not on the brakes during the steering.

I'm at a loss for how to correct this and stop trying to use the yoke to steer.
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More time with your CFI in the right seat.
 
perhaps the instructor could handle yoke and throttle on a few takeoffs while you handle the rudder and brakes?

You're going to have to condition your brain that the yoke is for banking, not general steering. That seems like a way to do it.

Btw, this is one of those cases where a sim at home could help you practice this 100 times for free (minus the initial cost of the sim).
 
Welcome to flying.
Don't correct until you need to. Especially early on.
Right now, if the nose starts to drift left, ease in a bit of right rudder.

It is okay to be behind the plane right now. You probably should be.
inaccurately getting ahead of it now can put you even farther behind it.

At day one you are supposed to still be high from having broken the bonds and all that. It's too soon to stress in my opinion. :)

By your 3rd day, you will likely be taking off just fine.

Have fun.
 
He said he's never experienced this before. He takes the Young Eagles up all the time and they do it without problem. The only thing he does with them is manage the throttle. He said he's going to give it a few more shots, and if I can't grasp it, I need to call it quits before someone gets hurt.
 
You just need practice. One thing of note, is that if you add too much right rudder and start heading to the right, you probably do NOT need to add left rudder -- just ease up the pressure on the right and the engine torque will draw you back to center.

This will take some of the drama out of the takeoff roll. :)
 
coma24 said:
perhaps the instructor could handle yoke and throttle on a few takeoffs while you handle the rudder and brakes?

You're going to have to condition your brain that the yoke is for banking, not general steering. That seems like a way to do it.

Btw, this is one of those cases where a sim at home could help you practice this 100 times for free (minus the initial cost of the sim).
Click to expand...

He thought about the simulator, and his son has one, but says the rudder to way too touchy and may cause more harm than good.
 
Deep breath. Practice with your CFI. Deep breath again. It will improve. We've all been there to some degree at some time. I remember my CFI telling me after one of my landings "you are free to breathe now...you hold your breath every time you land." :)
 
coma24 said:
perhaps the instructor could handle yoke and throttle on a few takeoffs while you handle the rudder and brakes?
Click to expand...

Good idea, keep your hands in your lap so you can ONLY steer with your feet. That would probably help cement things. Then add the yoke back in.
 
Instructors like to make a big deal about the P factor, but the reality is that the airplane is also affected by crosswinds - you might need right rudder during the roll, or you might need a lot of right, or you might need left. And it will change with gusts and speed. Just keep the nose pointed down the runway and don't over think it.

A couple fast taxi runs the length of the runway without taking off will give you more foot practice than flying the pattern.
 
I really think you're way too early in your training to even worry about something like this. It takes repeated and consistent practice in the aircraft to master so many things. Takeoffs are no easy feat since the wind and temperature conditions change constantly. You need to take a deep breath and chair fly a few times.

Sit in a chair, close your eyes, and imagine the takeoff role. You need that silence by yourself to talk through what your hands and feet need to do. The more you practice this and narrate the motions, the easier it will become in real life. I find narrating for myself especially when flying solo keeps me out of trouble.

Don't get discouraged. You're still being exposed to so much information and everyone learns at different paces. Be patient and study a lot. It'll all come to you in time.
 
The problem is, the instructor is a long time friend. He is a retired airline pilot, hold so many ratings and is a certified instructor in many area. If he calls it quits, I'm screwed. I may as well sell my plane at that point. :(
 
Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe said:
A couple fast taxi runs the length of the runway without taking off will give you more foot practice than flying the pattern.
Click to expand...

Agree. Did you do some taxi practice first? My instructor had me taxi the plane all over the airport twisting the yoke left and right.
 
stevenhmiller said:
He said he's never experienced this before. He takes the Young Eagles up all the time and they do it without problem. The only thing he does with them is manage the throttle. He said he's going to give it a few more shots, and if I can't grasp it, I need to call it quits before someone gets hurt.
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I call B.S. (not on you but on the CFI)
1st lesson correct?

Why is he letting young eagles take the plane off too?

I am not one of the "fire your instructor" types but a red flag goes up if he is talking of you calling it quits on your 1st lesson.

The first lesson is about going up and taking photos to show your mom and letting you feel the controls and get used to the idea of being in a small plane.

I say give him 2-3 more hours of your time and try flying with another CFI just to get a different take.

Something isn't right.
 
deeruck said:
Agree. Did you do some taxi practice first? My instructor had me taxi the plane all over the airport twisting the yoke left and right.
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I'm fine taxiing. We live in a flying community. I taxi the plane to the runway, down the streets fine.
 
stevenhmiller said:
I'm fine taxiing. We live in a flying community. I taxi the plane to the runway, down the streets fine.
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So what's different when you do it at full throttle? Are you very nervous?
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
I call B.S. (not on you but on the CFI)
1st lesson correct?

Why is he letting young eagles take the plane off too?

I am not one of the "fire your instructor" types but a red flag goes up if he is talking of you calling it quits on your 1st lesson.

The first lesson is about going up and taking photos to show your mom and letting you feel the controls and get used to the idea of being in a small plane.

I say give him 2-3 more hours of your time and try flying with another CFI just to get a different take.

Something isn't right.
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Not something I really can do. he's a real close friend, and knows his stuff better than anyone I've ever come in contact with. He knows flying these planes better than anyone I have ever had the pleasure of meeting. He's brilliant with flight. He's very opinionated, but I guess that goes with the territory.
 
stevenhmiller said:
he's a real close friend
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That may be part of the issue.
Any chance he is just giving you a good ribbing?

If he says "If you can't do this then you should quit."
you can fire back with "If you can't teach this stuff I may have to fire you"?

My friends and I talk a lot of smack that I would not otherwise do in a professional relationship.

Grasping at straws.
I don't want you to be fretting about flying this early on. It may cause you more stress during your next lesson.
 
I'm at a loss as to why you would takeoff four times on your first lesson, and why the CFI would suggest quitting. Seriously, wtf.
 
SixPapaCharlie said:
That may be part of the issue.
Any chance he is just giving you a good ribbing?

If he says "If you can't do this then you should quit."
you can fire back with "If you can't teach this stuff I may have to fire you"?

My friends and I talk a lot of smack that I would not otherwise do in a professional relationship.

Grasping at straws.
I don't want you to be fretting about flying this early on. It may cause you more stress during your next lesson.
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We joke a lot, but when in training, he's dead serious. There is no joking.
 
Classic overcontrolling.

There is a lag, especially in Cessnas, between control inputs and response. Slow yourself down. You want just enough input to correct the problem, no more. It's worst for steering on the ground, especially at high speed.

And this problem is nearly universal for first timers.
 
It just takes time and practice, learning to fly is hard! Tell yourself you can do it. Visualize the takeoff and imagine yourself staying right on the center line while pressing with your feet. And let your cfi know that you aren't going to quit, you're going to fly that damn plane and go do it!
 
You said you were behind the yoke for one day? Don't worry about it. It's very common. You'll get the hang of it once you start logging more hours.
 
two hints

1. Just use the right rudder peddle. When correcting for p-factor if you use the left you will tend to overcorrect.

2. When you are rolling for take-off just keep the yolk centered and only use for elevator.

Concentrate on just those two things. You are new and with a CFI, use him while you can to keep track of the 10 other things going on for now. You are WAY WAY to early to give up.
 
Brilliant pilot != brilliant teacher. A CFI that suggests quitting after only four take offs, and for a very common initial issue, deserves to be fired. And the comparison to his young eagles who "never have a problem" is a low blow. Find another CFI.

This issue is very common. When you're mentally overloaded, you revert to what you know. And what you know is that you've spent your whole life steering with the wheel. Your CFI needs to rewind and give you one task at a time.
 
MAKG1 said:
Classic overcontrolling.

There is a lag, especially in Cessnas, between control inputs and response. Slow yourself down. You want just enough input to correct the problem, no more. It's worst for steering on the ground, especially at high speed.

And this problem is nearly universal for first timers.
Click to expand...

Agreed....

Just wait till the OP gets out of the plane, jump in your car and hit the gas pedal to go right and the brake pedal to go left...:rolleyes:.....:wink2:
 
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If it's any consolation, I've seen some high time pilots subtly attempt to steer the plane with the yoke. You can even spot it on some YouTube videos. It's called "negative transfer" and comes from years of driving cars. It especially crops up under stress, like an unexpected swerve. Plane veers left, and you can see the yoke move right, and often see the pilot lean to the right - all because those are ingrained reflexes while steering with one's feet is new - many have only done it as kids on sleds or soap box racers. Usually no big deal, unless the steering and leaning instead of proper rudder use, not just added to it.

Probably less a factor in a plane with a stick.

In addition, some pilots initially find the rudder pedals seem to work "backwards". It's a contentious allegation, but I have no doubt it can throw some new pilots off a bit.

And absolutely no way your instructor should be either seriously or jokingly saying you may need to give up. He needs to lighten the load and let you learn one skill at a time.
 
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Don't worry, it will come. And DO NOT give up!! Would be a major mistake. Frankly, I suggest you seek out a new instructor. I've known some who went through several as they were finding the right match. Keep your chin up!!
 
Hmm... Seems to me, if this guy really knew his stuff and was an ace of a CFI, then he'd know A) what you're doing is common and B) how to teach you effectively. Oh, and C) not to compare fearless young kids with adults when it comes to acquiring motor skills.
 
stevenhmiller said:
I'm a new student pilot. Been behind the yoke for one day and have done 4 takeoffs. The first takeoff was like a drunken sailor walking down the street, not able to walk a straight line. The second takeoff, I had the left hand on the yoke, and right on the throttle. From a stop, as soon as we began to roll, I applied right rudder to counter the P-factor. I started to swerve and countered with the other rudder, all the while taking my hand off the throttle and trying to steer the yoke like a car! I did this three times, and each time the instructor had to grab control. I just can't seem to get the ingrained "this is not steered like a car" mentality out of my mind. One time this happened when I had a slight left crosswind upon takeoff and wound up steering the yoke to the right!!!

I thought maybe I was pressing the brakes instead of the rudder pedals, but my instructor said he watched and I was not on the brakes during the steering.

I'm at a loss for how to correct this and stop trying to use the yoke to steer.
Click to expand...

I was in the exact same boat as you.... I bought my Warrior, N4341X, with 1.5 hours in my log book and wanted to use my own plane to learn in.. The good part
is my instructor was a guy ... Glen Perkins out of Orlando North / X04 and he worked with me all the way to my PPL....

My suggestion is to have a heart to heart talk with your instructor..:rolleyes:
 
I'm going to tell my CFI he needs to slow it down and we need to correct the problem before moving on. The worst thing that happens is he decides to call it right there. Then I'll need to find a CFI in the area that is willing to come to me since my plane is here.
 
He may. And if he does, then he knows we need to slow it down.
 
terryd23 said:
Don't worry, it will come. And DO NOT give up!! Would be a major mistake.....
Click to expand...


I dunno man, I mean it's been an entire day and the guy can't taxi, takeoff, land...I mean sheesh, prob can't do steep turns and stalls for that matter. sounds like it's time to hang em up fo sho. :dunno:
 
stevenhmiller said:
He said he's never experienced this before. He takes the Young Eagles up all the time and they do it without problem. The only thing he does with them is manage the throttle. He said he's going to give it a few more shots, and if I can't grasp it, I need to call it quits before someone gets hurt.
Click to expand...

How much INSTRUCTING experience does he have? Just because someone can fly an Airbus or an F-16 doesn't mean they have much teaching experience.

As a CFI, three things concern me:

1) That much focus on takeoff on lesson #1. I don't know if you have any prior experience that might make it want to accelerate things, but in general though I'll let students handle the controls for takeoff we do one per flight until they get some basic skills with the plane.

2) When you are stressed you go back to what you know. Several basic learning principals apply there that a CFI should know. And the Young Eagles comparison is useless... chances are you have spent a lot more time developing your driving skills then they have!

3) Bringing up quitting on the first lesson is just not something I consider acceptable. I don't give up on someone after lesson one, and if I don't think that I can teach them I refer them to another instructor. Not all instructors can teach all students, and I learned long ago to accept that every once in a while someone who I don't progress well with will do fine with someone else and vice versa. I'm sad that a friend would not suggest quitting before helping you find another instructor.

Of course, these are observations from what you have posted and based on my understanding of the situation. I may have missed something, but hopefully you can have a good conversation with your CFI and figure out a solution, even if it means flying with someone else for a while.
 
stevenhmiller said:
I'm going to tell my CFI he needs to slow it down and we need to correct the problem before moving on. The worst thing that happens is he decides to call it right there. Then I'll need to find a CFI in the area that is willing to come to me since my plane is here.
Click to expand...

His approach is more than a bit unconventional.

The usual first things are four fundamentals and basic control. Takeoffs can wait, and they certainly shouldn't be showstoppers.

I'd ask for a syllabus, as the strategy seems a bit half baked.
 
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