Maintenance nightmares

RotorAndWing

RotorAndWing

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Rotor&Wing
From another thread where the discussion turned into impromptu maintenance, post your stories here to show Darwin just might have been on to something. :D
 
Like the one where I ran the safety wire through my thumb, or more like the one where I didn't tighten the dipstick and the engine puked a bunch of oil out the breather?
 
Opened a cowling on a PA28 and found the case halves covered with a heavy coat of JB Weld. Seems the owner was bound and determined to stop that pesky oil leak.
 
kyleb said:
Like the one where I ran the safety wire through my thumb, or more like the one where I didn't tighten the dipstick and the engine puked a bunch of oil out the breather?
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Hey, no one else here has ever done that. :redface:

And I have the scars to prove it. :D
 
New fractional ownership of a PA28, one of the owners wanted to top off the brakes with DOT 3 brake fluid.
 
RotorAndWing said:
From another thread where the discussion turned into impromptu maintenance, post your stories here to show Darwin just might have been on to something. :D
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I read the title, saw the poster and thought this was a thread about Skymasters. :D
 
bnt83 said:
New fractional ownership of a PA28, one of the owners wanted to top off the brakes with DOT 3 brake fluid.
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Not that I would ever do it, and worries about mixing 5606 with DOT3 aside, if the brakes were flushed really well and then filled with DOT3, what would be the resultant MECHANICAL problem(s)
 
weirdjim said:
Not that I would ever do it, and worries about mixing 5606 with DOT3 aside, if the brakes were flushed really well and then filled with DOT3, what would be the resultant MECHANICAL problem(s)
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DOT3 fluid being hydroscopic and aircraft brakes vented to armosphere, corrosion for 1.

Incompatibility of the glycol ether based fluid and the rubber products in the brake system for 2
 
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On a ski trip in Taos and broke the starter clutch spur. Hand propped the O-470 in the cold and got to PHX. I filled with gas without shutting down in N AZ. Hated that. Once at PHX, I called for a starter to be drop shipped. First big name FBO refused to install it, I towed the plane to the next big FBO. I had the starter out already, and all they had to do was put it in, test it, and write the log entry. It's a 30 min job. Got a bill for $435 in labor for 4.5 hours plus shop supplies. The most clueless mechanic on the planet can do the job in an hour, it's four bolts, one ground and one hot wire. Gaaahhhh!
 
Who does any maintainence? We just have the airplane signed off for $300 and fix it when it breaks!

RTV. Yeah, that'll do it.....
 
In 1998, I was a new owner of a '75 Piper Warrior. The plane had been owned by an FBO flight school in WI, and was a little rough -- but she was all mine, and I loved her.

At the first annual, just five months after acquisition, I was presented with a $5000 bill -- for an OWNER ASSISTED annual. The same shop had done the prebuy inspection, and given the plane a fairly clean bill of health (no deal killers), but now they found all SORTS of fun things wrong, including:

- A nose fork that was 3 degrees out of spec. The mechanic spotted this discrepancy from across the shop, while the plane was up on jacks. I defy anyone to spot a 3 degree variance in the angle of your fork from across the room. Cost for a used fork: $600.

- A cap on the end of one of the push rods was MISSING. Apparently when the previous owner had replaced a cylinder, they didn't have the right length of push rod, so to make it work they simply omitted the rotator cap on the end of the rod.

- Aeroflash strobes were found to be illegally on the plane. They reported it to the FSDO, and I was forced to remove perfectly functional Aeroflash strobes, and replace them with "legal" Whelen strobes. Cost: $900+.

- Non-functional stall warning switch in the wing. Cost from Piper: $1200. We found one used for "only" $350. We took the old one apart, and found that a $3 Radio Shack switch would have worked fine.

The list went on and on. I found out much, much later that (a) the FBO I bought the plane from was going bankrupt, and (b) the shop I paid to do the pre-buy and the annual was ALSO going bankrupt. They saw me, the new, gullible owner, as raw meat, and fleeced me good.

Live and learn. Nowadays, I would have nailed them for misleading/missing so much stuff on the pre-buy, and/or I would have told them to put the plane back together and I'd fly it to a competent shop. Back then, I only wanted to do the "right thing" for the safety of my family -- and as a result enabled that shop to make their payroll for another month or two.
 
Maybe that's what his expert used to build 31 RV's in one lifetime.

bbchien said:
Who does any maintainence? We just have the airplane signed off for $300 and fix it when it breaks!

RTV. Yeah, that'll do it.....
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Jay Honeck said:
....I defy anyone to spot a 3 degree variance in the angle of your fork from across the room....
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Depends, Jay.
Few years back I opened the hangar door (the big 60ft wide variety) and turned to walk to my airplane to take her up for another one of the Phase I flights when I noticed that something was off with my prop. Now, don't ask me what it was, but there was something off. Didn't look right.
Pulled the spinner and saw that the prop and the crush plate were out of alignment by - get this - 1/16th of an inch. Started pulling things apart to investigate - my then "going to be a partner in the airplane" buddy was putting the engine and prop together - he's built a couple of airplanes with Jabiru engines, he knows things, right? Wrong. Stock Jab bushings are made for AN4 bolts - just like the stock Jab props - or so I'm told. Sensenich props are made for AN6 bolts. Plan is, you take the bushings, drill them out - you get the idea. But no - the genius just stuck AN4s in there (so that there was some good air cushion between the bolts and the prop "meat") and however well he "torqued" it (in accordance with the instructions that come with the Sensenich logbook, I might add), the prop was starting to go outta whack. By 1/16" at the time I caught it. I grounded the airplane until I went through every single thing he touched and fixed a couple more items (nothing nearly as big though). Needless to say, that relationship didn't go far.
I still have those AN4 bolts in my drawer. They held up for 11.5 hours
 
moonshine said:
Depends, Jay.
Few years back I opened the hangar door (the big 60ft wide variety) and turned to walk to my airplane to take her up for another one of the Phase I flights when I noticed that something was off with my prop. Now, don't ask me what it was, but there was something off. Didn't look right.
Pulled the spinner and saw that the prop and the crush plate were out of alignment by - get this - 1/16th of an inch. Started pulling things apart to investigate - my then "going to be a partner in the airplane" buddy was putting the engine and prop together - he's built a couple of airplanes with Jabiru engines, he knows things, right? Wrong. Stock Jab bushings are made for AN4 bolts - just like the stock Jab props - or so I'm told. Sensenich props are made for AN6 bolts. Plan is, you take the bushings, drill them out - you get the idea. But no - the genius just stuck AN4s in there (so that there was some good air cushion between the bolts and the prop "meat") and however well he "torqued" it (in accordance with the instructions that come with the Sensenich logbook, I might add), the prop was starting to go outta whack. By 1/16" at the time I caught it. I grounded the airplane until I went through every single thing he touched and fixed a couple more items (nothing nearly as big though). Needless to say, that relationship didn't go far.
I still have those AN4 bolts in my drawer. They held up for 11.5 hours
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Now THAT is a good eye! :D

I'm not sure I could spot 1/16" -- or 3 degrees -- on a crooked picture hanging across the room, let alone as a variance in the prop or fork.
 
The owner say it had been making a weard noise for about 4 months but he waited for the annual to see what was wrong and get it fixed.
 

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Engine would not stop making metal, finally tore it down found this in Crank Case. and where it came from
 

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Engine ran on W100 from 1962 to 2007 when it was disassembled, the crank was new standard, rod and main bearings met new standard, TT on engine in that time was 1200+
 

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A maintenance nightmare is spending $6,800 on a condition inspection last month. Who charges $1,700 just to do the inspection on a little Glasair? I should've known better.
 
I still think of my good friend, Don Slipper, who introduced me to corporate flying. He and Peter La Haye were killed when their Westwind crashed on descent into Teterboro. Maintenance had improperly installed the elevator jack screw during a tail inspection.

Evidently, they fought an out of control airplane for 30 minutes until it hit the ground.

Two ironies:
It was later determined that the inspection was not required on this airframe due to serial number.
It was to be their last flight in the Westwind. They were going to TEB to pick up a new DA-50.

That is a nightmare that I still have dreams about, and I wasn't even there.
 
83282 hyd fluid pouring down the side windows of my UH-60A while nap of the earth on NVG's over the hills of Germany. Someone left the hyd line partially installed at pump with balls not in detent. 3000+ psi. We did a zoom climb with 3120 SHP and started the APU/backup hyd system. Should have used RTV on the fitting.

Mechanic pressurized UH-60A wheel/tire assembly using the expedient method. No cage. NO regulator. Wheel pieces stuck in concrete block wall and other helos 30' away. Maintenance manual was being looked at, as the correct pages were shredded. He just had a few minor cuts.
 
bnt83 said:
DOT3 fluid being hydroscopic and aircraft brakes vented to armosphere, corrosion for 1.

Not sure I buy any of the three arguments posed. Can't find a source for DOT3 as hydroscopic, nor a/c brakes vented, nor automobile brakes NOT vented.

We ARE talking light single/twin pistons, not kerosene queens, yes?

Incompatibility of the glycol ether based fluid and the rubber products in the brake system for 2

Certainly you aren't referring to the o-rings, which haven't been rubber since Rickenbacker. What other "rubber" parts that haven't been converted to synthetics in the last 60 years are we talking about?
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.....
 
Jay Honeck said:
Now THAT is a good eye! :D

I'm not sure I could spot 1/16" -- or 3 degrees -- on a crooked picture hanging across the room, let alone as a variance in the prop or fork.
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Yeah, you can, after a while. I've been "examining" this one part my students make and after about 20 years 50 times a year I can spot 20 thousandths error in a four inch part easily and "sort" of spot 10 mils well enough to verify with calipers 9 times out of 10.

If you do the math, 62 mils at the prop hub works out to about a 1" runout at the prop tips.

3° on a nose fork? I'd have called for a measurement. THAT is too close to call by eyeball, especially from across the hangar.

Jim
 
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Velocity173 said:
A maintenance nightmare is spending $6,800 on a condition inspection last month. Who charges $1,700 just to do the inspection on a little Glasair? I should've known better.
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I do condition inspections on any homebuilt based at KGOO for a charity donation of the owner's amount and choosing. The only caveat is that they have to have the builder AND another owner of the same make/model with me while we all three look the aircraft over.

...
 
weirdjim said:
I do condition inspections on any homebuilt based at KGOO for a charity donation of the owner's amount and choosing. The only caveat is that they have to have the builder AND another owner of the same make/model with me while we all three look the aircraft over.

...
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Sounds like a good deal. I could've flown all the way from GA to CA and probably still would've saved money. Unfortunately the builder passed away years ago.

The shop I chose has a large overhead with several A&Ps working. I told the head mech that I needed to know about anything over 2 grand. He kinda gave me a funny look as if to say we don't do annuals (condition) under 2 grand. They weren't very knowledgeable on the type either. After my first invoice of $2,700 I should've had them button it up and call it a day. Instead I continued with it. Wasn't washed and I had to put the wheel pants back on myself. I admit, there were several discrepancies found (only one serious) but no where near what they charged.
 
I bought a 40 year old twin for a great price with 10k hours on the airframe. Flew it 1,000 hours all over the continent, had reasonable and expected maintenance on it with a few major items, sold it for $500 less than I paid and had a total cost of about $150/hr dry including my avionics upgrades.

Oh wait, we were supposed to talk about bad stories...
 
The jury is still out on ours, of course. Expenses and maintenance have been within a few bucks an hour of any of the rentals in the area. Higher of course. And we could choose to go higher yet if we were going for upgrades and what not.

Only "bad" experience has been at the avionics shop at KBJC. Freedom Avionics. Yes I will name them. $3K in work and problems have returned. I didn't trust the diagnosis and was right. Not pleased with their work at all.

One $3K "mistake" over the total costs over the time the aircraft will be owned, won't make a hill of beans worth of difference, as long as we don't make it repeatedly.

It's definitely a lesson in only dealing with shops that have top-notch references even if one must move the airplane to them. Best way to save money on aircraft maintenance is to be lucky enough to base the aircraft at an airport with top-tier maintenance facilities or slightly more expensive, be willing to fly it to one.

We almost got trapped by the opposite too... Good MX shop with a good name who took on buying a fleet and running a flight school instead of focusing on their primary business. We saw that one coming and moved shops to see what might have been missed or just not pointed out to us in the overly-busy shop, and found a few things before it got totally out of hand. So, caveat emptor on a good shop that willingly or unwillingly overloads their schedule, too.

In both cases, the hint was the level of organization. See people flying by the seat of their pants and the paperwork always seems slightly wrong? Leave. Seriously. Other signs are when things don't work on the first flight out of the shop, and they were things that shouldn't have been touched or should have been tested. "Oh I can't believe I missed that!" Is a bad sign.

Another one was "let me look at that, I can fix it!" and the DME sat on their bench for a month. That one was no charge but didn't actually fix the problem. Won't be going back there, either. New shop, new tech. Bit off more than they could chew. At least honest enough not to charge for the learning session nor make it any worse.
 
Velocity173 said:
The shop I chose has a large overhead with several A&Ps working. I told the head mech that I needed to know about anything over 2 grand. He kinda gave me a funny look as if to say we don't do annuals (condition) under 2 grand. They weren't very knowledgeable on the type either. After my first invoice of $2,700 I should've had them button it up and call it a day. Instead I continued with it. Wasn't washed and I had to put the wheel pants back on myself. I admit, there were several discrepancies found (only one serious) but no where near what they charged.
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I think this is part of the extra work and responsibility that a buyer of an E/AB aircraft has to take on. Ideally finding someone with some familiarity with the type and someone with the inclination to work on it.

Preparation for shop selection is selection of a E/AB type that someone has some familiarity with.

Assuming that cost was a priority for the E/AB decision, I'd think that smaller shops and operations would tend to be more cost effective than large ones.

Good build and operational documentation would seem to be a big help too.

I'm not speaking from any extensive experience but rather from my limited experiences with a certified Maule and building/flying/maintaining an RV10.
 
Back when dinosaurs roamed the earth I was a WSO/EWO in an F-4 squadron. In the F-4E/G they did full aft stick takeoffs. As the plane began to rotate the pilot applied forward pressure to stop the rotation at the correct climb angle.

In this case a wrench jammed in the elevator control linkage. The crew ejected as the nose was passing straight up.

The investigation determined that this wrench had been glued into the tail cone with anti-corrosion paint during depot maintenance a couple of years ago, and had finally worked loose.

The fun didn't stop there. My friend was in the pit. He didn't get a normal ejection.

The way the Martin-Baker seat works is that a gunpowder charge propels the seat up a rail that extends above the airplane. As the seat clears the rail a lanyard pulls a pin that fires the rocket motor.

The lanyard had not been properly installed and broke! No rocket motor! The guy just fell out of the airplane as it rolled on its back, got one swing in a partial chute, and smacked the ground hard enough to break a bunch bones. Ouch!
 

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Watched a guy "repainting" his Bonanza use bondo on the tail feathers (magnesium) and ailerons, without removing them and then repainted over them.
 
weirdjim said:
Not that I would ever do it, and worries about mixing 5606 with DOT3 aside, if the brakes were flushed really well and then filled with DOT3, what would be the resultant MECHANICAL problem(s)
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The seals would swell and weaken and the first time you hit the brakes they would either not release or fail altogether.
 
Henning said:
The seals would swell and weaken and the first time you hit the brakes they would either not release or fail altogether.
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Why would you believe that, since the seals are made of the same material as automotive brake seals ... ??

Jim
 
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