M20J / 201 questions

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by dell30rb, Jan 21, 2013.

  1. dell30rb

    dell30rb Final Approach

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    So, I flew in one of our club's M20J's this weekend and now I've decided I must pony up and get checked out in them.

    I was flying with a friend who just completed his checkout. He was having some trouble with the engine management. I'm trying to help him get a simplified configuration table established.

    From an hour in the airplane I came up with this;

    Cruise Climb:
    100kts
    25" and 2500 RPM
    Gear + Flaps Up
    Cowl Flaps 1/2 Open
    Lean 100 degrees ROP

    Cruise:
    2400rpm
    Wide open but not over 25" (the POH seems fine with operating over square)
    Cowl flaps closed
    Lean 100 ROP (full rental power here - 100ROP is best power per POH)

    En-Route Descent:
    22" and 2200 RPM
    Aiming for 500FPM descent without re-trimming

    Initial Approach Segment
    18" and 2200RPM
    100 Knots
    Gear Down

    FAF
    Propeller Forward
    Reduce to 14"
     
  2. wabower

    wabower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    I'd start with the line-up check and work through takeoff and after-takeoff to establish flow and continuity. That method also sets up nicely if you transition to anything bigger down the road.


     
  3. dell30rb

    dell30rb Final Approach

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    Ah yes I have developed a checklist for that

    F - Flaps for takeoff
    A - Announce departure
    R - Line up on Rwy, check runway # and DG
    T - Takeoff - Full power
    S - Suck up gear


    Seriously though - Could you elaborate a bit. My friend was having a bit of trouble with the flow of things. Had us cruise climbing with flaps out etc...
     
  4. wabower

    wabower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    And I have the pneumonic stored up inside if you need it.
     
  5. dell30rb

    dell30rb Final Approach

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    Do you mean that I should put the checklist in the order that it should be done - instead of just listing configurations for various phases of flight
     
  6. wabower

    wabower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    No, just funnin'

    Without knowing how the checklists you're using are set up, can't say for sure.

    Many of the older light-lane versions had all the preflight items kinda lumped into one big subheading. All of the items are included, but the order of appearance is less beneficial to the pilot than having a list arranged with the "Line-up" items (typically those that are accomplished after take-off clearance or announcing that you're taxiing onto the runway for that purpose) listed separately so they can be accomplished as a group ("lights, camera, action" type items). Those then lead to the "power set, gages checked, airspeed alive" group that occur early in the takeoff roll, yada yada.

     
  7. dell30rb

    dell30rb Final Approach

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    Complete Run Up and Pre-Takeoff Checklist

    F - Flaps for takeoff
    A - Announce departure
    R - Line up on Rwy, check runway # and DG
    T - Takeoff - Full power
    S - Suck up gear

    Cruise Climb:
    Retract Flaps
    Set propeller to 2500 RPM
    Set MP to 25"
    Establish Climb at 100 knots
    Boost Pump Off
    Lean 100 degrees ROP over 3000 feet
    Monitor CHT + EGT

    Cruise:
    Set RPM 2400
    Set MP to 24"
    Close Cowl Flaps
    Check EGT and lean for 100 ROP once level and on course

    En-Route Descent:
    Reduce RPM to 2200
    Reduce manifold pressure to 22"
    Lean 25 degrees ROP
    Enrich Mixture during descent as necessary


    Initial Approach Segment
    18" and 2200RPM
    Gear down Under 130kts
    Speed 100kts

    FAF
    Propeller Forward
    Reduce MP to 14"
    Mixture Rich
    Boost pump On
    Landing Light On
    Cowl Flaps Open

    Runway in Sight
    Reduce power as required
    Trim as Flaps are extended
    Slow to 75kts over the numbers

    Missed Approach
    Full Power
    Establish Climb Attitude
    Retract Gear
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2013
  8. Greg Bockelman

    Greg Bockelman Administrator Management Council Member

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    Where is Ed Guthrie when you need him? LOL
    Or Lance Flynn. Or maybe even Kent Shook.
     
  9. dell30rb

    dell30rb Final Approach

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    The flying club has checklists in every aircraft.
    What i'm trying to do is to simplify the portion of checklist that is between run up / pre-takeoff and the shut down checklist.

    The checklists we are provided with are full of info and have cruise power tables etc... They are choppy and don't flow very well. I think they contain too much information.

    My pal was getting behind the plane trying to use the provided checklist so I was hoping to come up with something that simplifies things for him. Obviously no replacement for getting more experience with the aircraft - but I think he'd have an easier time w a better checklist.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2013
  10. ElPaso Pilot

    ElPaso Pilot Cleared for Takeoff

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    Sometimes you've just got to poke around a bit to get one that works for you.

    I modified one that looks a lot like the M. Waugh checklist on the link below to match my preferred performance numbers and preferences on the 201 a number of years ago.

    http://www.freechecklists.net/Resources/Mooney/M20J_MSE/
     
  11. wabower

    wabower Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Agreed. I just think you need to find the starting spot that makes it flow in a logical and concise way. For examples, 25" in my plane requires a power reduction, and prop to 2,500 also requires twisting the knob C/W. Changing to cruise climb requires lowering the nose from VX then VY that I used to gain altitude quickly at our in-town airport.

    But you're there and I'm not, so whatever you see will probably help him understand the drill much better than he does now. I think your summary covers the stuff he needs to know.

     
  12. whifferdill

    whifferdill Line Up and Wait

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    Yeah sounds like you also got tired of sitting behind them while they spend 15 min. reading their checklist at the hold short line. :)
     
  13. dell30rb

    dell30rb Final Approach

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    In the mooney at $16 per tenth on the hobbs I would be beyond tired! :mad2:
     
  14. bbchien

    bbchien Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Renjamin- as you discovered there is no ride like Mooney. None.

    1000 hours in J's and F's :) :)
     
  15. LDJones

    LDJones Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Don't forget the Boost Pump on and off at the appropriate times, pre-take off and landing.

    The 201 is a wonderful flying machine, BTW.
     
  16. DavidWhite

    DavidWhite Final Approach

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  17. dell30rb

    dell30rb Final Approach

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    Thanks for the link

    I took mine and modified it a bit. I think what I am going for is a simplified in-flight checklist. The club checklists are small print and tell you to do things you should already be doing anyway.

    The checklist for approach have a bunch of steps on them like - note AWOS, set altimeter, write down winds, Things you don't really have time to read on a checklist and do.

    I'll attach the latest version. I think it is going to be much easier to follow along in-flight. Next time we fly approaches i'll double check the numbers and adjust as necessary.
     

    Attached Files:

  18. DavidWhite

    DavidWhite Final Approach

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    My experience (although only about 40 hours in them) is that the above statement is entirely correct.
     
  19. dell30rb

    dell30rb Final Approach

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  20. DavidWhite

    DavidWhite Final Approach

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    I don't think it will really save that much gas. Yesterday coming back from lunch with the Honecks at 8500 I was getting 161KTAS at 9.3gph 40 degrees LOP.
     
  21. LDJones

    LDJones Touchdown! Greaser!

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    While maneuvering for the approach, try 20"/2300.
     
  22. dell30rb

    dell30rb Final Approach

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    Gear down and what speed does that yield?

    I had 22" 2200 for the enroute so I wanted to leave it at 2200 to keep it simple
     
  23. ElPaso Pilot

    ElPaso Pilot Cleared for Takeoff

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    Yup. That's not bad.

    Here's someone else's pattern numbers in simple form to help a newbe visualize what has to be done.

    Also, have you and your buddy signed up at Mooneyspace.com?

    [​IMG]
     
  24. dell30rb

    dell30rb Final Approach

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    No, will check out mooneyspace though

    I noticed that you have 2900 and also 2740 in the gross weight there.

    Our club has three mooneys, the online W&B calculator for two of them are listed at 2740 gross and the other one is 2900. Is there a certain year or STC that bumps the gross weight up?
     
  25. AggieMike88

    AggieMike88 Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Now offering reverse discounts.
    I like this visualization. I'm gonna steal the idea and modify it as needed for other aircraft.
     
  26. ElPaso Pilot

    ElPaso Pilot Cleared for Takeoff

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    Yes.

    S/N 24-3201 and 24-3218 & up were manufactured with a 2900 lb gross weight.

    S/N 24-1686 thru 24-3200 and 24-3202 through 24-3217 can be modified per Mooney drawing No. 940071 and have the AFM updated to get the 2900 lb. gross weight.

    Serial numbers prior to 24-1686 (including mine) are stuck at 2740.

    http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_library/rgMakeModel.nsf/0/60107bc8954c93a686256c24005b5075/$FILE/2A3.pdf

    Lots of this info is available on the Mooneyspace site.
     
  27. ElPaso Pilot

    ElPaso Pilot Cleared for Takeoff

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    Sounds good. I "borrowed" it from someone online long ago, and would need to Google awhile to find the source. It is in a doc file.

    I just hope that Rich doesn't replace my linked picture with horse butts or tub girls. :yikes:
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2013
  28. Jaybird180

    Jaybird180 Final Approach

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    I also recommend including MPH or KIAS for the speeds. IIRC, some 201's had MPH before they switched over and not all owners updated to KIAS.
     
  29. DavidWhite

    DavidWhite Final Approach

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    << Ran to grab logs to check to see if he was eligible for GWT increase


    << 24-1046


    << Pouty face
     
  30. DavidWhite

    DavidWhite Final Approach

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    Is there a certain difference on the later airframes or are they effectively the same? If the zombies come it will be good to know I could load my airplane up to 2900 pounds without the wings falling off.

    Like with my 172 I knew it would fly with 2500 pounds of weight because of the Air Plains STC - I had the same engine but didn't have the flaps limit. It's always important to know the limits.

    For zombies, of course.
     
  31. Greg Bockelman

    Greg Bockelman Administrator Management Council Member

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    David, you don't weigh anything. Why do you need a GWT increase? :rofl:
     
  32. DavidWhite

    DavidWhite Final Approach

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    I'm actually almost an FAA standard adult now. I don't NEED a GWT increase, but it's always nice to be able to carry more. With 4 people and 35 gallons of gas I can only carry like 30 pounds of bags, and for a beach trip for the weekend that isn't much.
     
  33. ElPaso Pilot

    ElPaso Pilot Cleared for Takeoff

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    As I remember, there were several structural changes implemented on the K model that were carried down to the J model to simplify manufacturing.

    Little details around tubing strength at certain points in the frame and landing gear.

    Wings structure was untouched, though, so they shouldn't fall off.
     
  34. DavidWhite

    DavidWhite Final Approach

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    So there is indeed a reason to not fly ours at 2900 pounds. Thanks for the info.
     
  35. smccray

    smccray Pre-Flight

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    It's my understanding that there is a slight physical difference to the airplanes after 24-1686 that permitted the gross weight increase. I just upped mine at the last annual- 1024 useful load :).

    Not sure why you're cruising 24" and 2400 RPM. I always cruise WOT and 2500 RPM. 10 miles from the IAF I'll pull the MP back to 20" to start slowing down and to get comfortably below gear speed and intermediate flaps speed. I configure before the FAF planning 2500 RPMs and 100-110 kias. Gear down and intermediate flaps, 1000 FPM descent is 12" of MP, 500 FMP is ~16".

    Watch your speeds on final. I've heard it's an extra 100 ft of float per kt of airspeed. That wouldn't be inconsistent with my experience. If I end up a little high on final, I slow down to below 80 kias and the approach angle gets nice and steep. That seems to work out better for me than nosing over and getting on the glide path at the expense of picking up airspeed.

    If you try to make it land just remember- bounce, bounce, crunch. Don't let it get that far. I almost lost it bouncing a landing into Austin at Thanksgiving. Landing with intermediate flaps seems to be much more forgiving on airspeed.
     
  36. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    IMO, you can make this easier in a couple of ways: First of all, forget reducing to 25" MP. It's unnecessary. It's usually taught that way during initial complex training to get the trainee to understand that MP should usually be reduced prior to RPM, and because some airplanes have a max continuous power rating that's only good for 5 minutes and thus must be reduced further. I don't think that applies to the M20J. There are other good reasons for leaving the throttle wide open - See John Deakin's articles for more info. So, pull back to 2500 to be nice to the airport neighbors, but leave the throttle wide open.

    Second, "Lean 100 degrees ROP" sounds easier than it is, and you don't want to be messing with mixture finding where the peak is during a climb either. So, take a look at the EGT shortly after takeoff, and lean as needed to maintain that EGT in the climb. FWIW, the Mooney I fly has a single-probe EGT that's separate from the engine analyzer, is within easy view on the panel, and has a green "Climb" range marked on it that works quite well too.

    Despite the fact that you don't own the plane directly, it still behooves you to treat it nicely - If all the club members beat on the engine with "full rental power" it won't last as long and you'll burn a lot more fuel, both of which will increase your hourly rates. No matter what you're flying, fly it like you own it.

    With that in mind - IIRC the J has a 200hp engine with 2700 max RPM. So, for lean of peak operations, 75% power will be about 10.1 gph and 65% power will be about 8.7 gph, whatever setting gets you there. Rich of peak, at best power mixture, that 25"/2400 would be roughly 74%, 24"/2200 would be about 65%.

    Is there something that's easier about changing both MP and RPM instead of re-trimming? I prefer to begin my descents at the same power setting and just push the trim forward a couple notches. The biggest problem with Mooneys is just getting 'em slowed down though, so if your friend is having problems with that, a lower power setting is appropriate. You could try 20" and cruise RPM to keep it as easy as possible.

    As long as that's enough to get you down to gear speed.

    And not in that order. Prior to putting the prop forward, you should have a power setting low enough that you're measuring your throttle input in RPM, not MP. In the Ovation, 1500 RPM makes a good final approach setting with gear down, full flaps, and speed brakes stowed (80 knots on final approach). Obviously, the 201 will be different, but if 14" doesn't get the RPM below the 2200 or whatever you have set, it's not low enough. When you push the prop knob forward on approach, there should be no actual change in RPM.

    More later...
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2013
  37. LDJones

    LDJones Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Gear-up on my C it was 100 kts. A bit faster on the J. I found the key to slowing down is getting the RPMs down, not just the MP. Left it at that power setting til the FAF, then drop the gear and come back to 16" or so and rode the ILS like it was on rails.
     
  38. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Generally, I've found that normal procedures checklists contain too much info, while emergency checklists don't have enough.

    I'd also suggest that going head-down and reading long checklists in flight is going to result in less than ideal results. Interestingly enough, the one opportunity I had to fly a jet I was really impressed with their checklists. Not one bit of "fluff." There's a whole lot of checklists, but they're quick and concise.

    With that in mind, here's what I'd pull off the top of my head for the Mooney Ovation from post-runup to after landing:

    Line Up:
    Lights - All on

    Initial climb:
    Positive rate and accelerate to 85 KIAS, gear up
    accelerate to 105 KIAS, flaps up
    Accelerate to 120 KIAS, trim for climb
    (As far as a "checklist", I wouldn't put the above items on it - Only "Flaps and Gear - Retracted." If your friend can't do the above without a checklist by the time his checkout is completed, he probably needs to stick to simpler airplanes.)
    Note EGT - This is the value you'll lean to later in climb.

    Cruise:
    (Here's the steps I use in pretty much every plane: Trim, time, lights, pump, power, mixture, compass, cowl flaps... Removing the things that aren't needed. So, for the Mooney on a VFR day, it is:)
    Lights: Landing/Taxi lights off
    Power: Set for cruise (usually WOT/2200 on the M20R)
    Mixture: Lean as appropriate. (I go LOP up through about 9,000 or at peak if higher.)

    Top of Descent:
    (Trim forward)
    Lights - All on.
    (Reduce MP to 20", 17", and 14", usually 15-20, 10-15, and 5-10 miles out respectively)

    FAF or downwind:
    (Check IAS vs. Vle, and then) Gear down
    Flaps as appropriate
    When out of the governing range: Prop and mixture forward

    Final approach:
    GUMPSS

    After landing and clearing the runway:
    Mixture - Lean
    Landing and Recognition lights - Off
    Speed brakes - Retract
    Flaps - Retract
    Pitot Heat - Off
    Prop De-ice - Off

    Probably. I would guess that time in type is going to be the most important thing - The biggest thing is probably that his brain isn't used to going that fast, and the only way to fix that is to fly a fast airplane regularly for a while. What has he flown previously? Is this his first step up from a 172-class airplane? I had somewhat of an advantage moving to the Mooney because I've been flying 135-140 knot airplanes for several years, so it wasn't a huge jump in speed - about 25%. For someone going from an old 172 to an M20J, it's much closer to 50%. I bet David had an easier time because he flies a ton, though, and that's another important factor. Does your friend fly once a month, or twice a week? He'll need to fly fairly often for a while to learn and maintain the proper skill and fast-thinking technique.


    EDIT: I just want to emphasize once again, the above is what I do in the Ovation, and it will be different than the 201. The Ovation has no cowl flaps, never uses the boost pump except for starting and emergencies, has a max RPM of 2500, etc. etc. etc. It's just an example of the style of checklists that I think could help your friend.
     
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2013
  39. Lance F

    Lance F Pattern Altitude

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    There's a lot of good information above from some obviously experienced Mooney pilots. I like the M20J with its Lycoming IO360 engine because really it's pretty simple.
    From take off roll to level off in cruise I have throttle and prop full forward and cowl flaps open. I lean the mixture to stay at take off EGT (I happen to use #2 just to be consistent) as I climb. After rounding out at cruise altitude I reduce the prop to 2500 rpm, close the cowl flaps, pull the mixture to the appropriate LOP amount(depends on altitude), move my seat back one notch and enjoy the flight.
    If there's no turbulence and I'm not getting slam dunked by ATC, I won't pull back the throttle on initial descent. I know you have to slow down sometime, but I'll delay that as long as I can. This depends mainly on the type of approach involved and other traffic if it's an uncontrolled airport.
    After I land, I'll open the cowl flaps and lean it as much as I can and still taxi.
    Please remember that the check list is to check. It's not a to do list. Find a typed jet pilot in your club and have him/her explain the concept of cockpit flow. It works in a Mooney just a well as a 747 and can reduce workload, help eliminate errors, and do a whole bunch of other good stuff. Figure out a good flow and make your own check lists based on your flow.
    IMHO, it's going to be hard not to enjoy your Mooney flying.
     
  40. flyingcheesehead

    flyingcheesehead Touchdown! Greaser!

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    Lance,

    I'm curious - You use full (2700?) RPM in climb and 2500 in cruise. Those are higher numbers than I've heard before, and I've also understood that it's best to use the minimum appropriate RPM for a given power setting to minimize wear and power losses to friction.

    I'm sure you've decided on your procedures for a reason - Can you share your thought process?