LSA weight restrictions changing?

Discussion in 'Flight Following' started by asicer, Jul 24, 2018.

  1. asicer

    asicer En-Route

    Joined:
    Jan 1, 2015
    Messages:
    4,107
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    asicer
  2. NordicDave

    NordicDave Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2015
    Messages:
    876
    Location:
    San Jose
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    NordicDave
    I believe the EASA European regulations have improved both the weight and TopSpeed limitations over the initial regs.

    Seems like the EU is more concerned with a vibrant aviation industry than the USA. They also led the way in certified reg simplification.
     
    Dav8or likes this.
  3. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2008
    Messages:
    11,349
    Location:
    DXO124009
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Light and Sporty Guy
    Hopefully, they won't "fix" anything else.
     
    denverpilot likes this.
  4. NordicDave

    NordicDave Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2015
    Messages:
    876
    Location:
    San Jose
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    NordicDave
    In my opinion… Adding 200 pounds of gross weight improvement and 10 kts of top speed, would make the LSA market much more attractive as an option. Even with the two seat limitations.
     
    rvator51, ETres, Dave-C and 4 others like this.
  5. frfly172

    frfly172 Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2008
    Messages:
    13,565
    Location:
    mass fla
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    ron keating
    The weight increase would be a good place to start,another ten knots of speed ,can probably be accomplished by tweaking the current motors.
     
    FlyingElvii likes this.
  6. yakdriver

    yakdriver Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2011
    Messages:
    1,200
    Location:
    Twin Falls, Idaho
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    yellow peril
     
  7. Ben2k9

    Ben2k9 Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2018
    Messages:
    206
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Ben2k9
    I sure hope so. My plane can easily handle a few hundred more pounds and with some tweaking some more speed. dumb for me to have to travel with half empty fuel tanks when I have a passenger just to meet these arbitrary limits.
     
  8. bflynn

    bflynn Final Approach

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2012
    Messages:
    5,093
    Location:
    Fuquay Varina, NC
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Brian Flynn
    Weight has been a long term complaint because it compromises structure. The LSA operator at KLHZ had their Remos destroyed by people training in it..the hard landings added up until the plane just wasn't airworthy anymore.

    It would be nice to bring a few more planes into the group. What's the odds they'll raise it to 6000lbs and allow 6 seats? :D:p:p
     
    MIFlyer and deonb like this.
  9. EppyGA

    EppyGA Touchdown! Greaser!

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2009
    Messages:
    10,571
    Location:
    Hoschton, GA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Let's Fly
    I wonder if this will put the C-150s in play.
     
    Mike Smith, Johnbo and AndrewX like this.
  10. wanttaja

    wanttaja En-Route

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2008
    Messages:
    2,841
    Location:
    Seattle
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Ron Wanttaja
    Don't know about 6,000 and 6, but I think we're in for some significant changes. The FAA, EAA, etc. are not likely to enter a two-year process for a lousy 300-pound change in gross weight. With BasicMed, the groundwork has been established for not requiring commercial-style medicals for large complex privately-owned aircraft.

    My guess:
    1. Gross weight upped to 1,800 lbs. Additional allocation for floats (per current rules) and a BRS (similar to Part 103).
    2. Limited to one passenger, regardless of seats
    3. Stall limit now in "dirty" configuration, possibly another value specified for clean stall
    4. Electric power allowed
    5. Variable-pitch propellers allowed (byproduct of #4).
    6. Max level-flight speed raised to 150, or eliminated entirely (rely on stall limit keeping things safe)

    With nearly 15 years' experience with current Light Sport, and (by then) three years experience with BasicMed, I think they'll have a good basis for relaxing the rules quite a bit.

    Ron Wanttaja
     
    MIFlyer and RyanShort1 like this.
  11. midwestpa24

    midwestpa24 Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2016
    Messages:
    1,351
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    midwestpa24
    A group of us were just discussing this the other day. We agreed it is probably just a matter of time until the Sport Pilot and Recreational Pilot certificates somehow get merged.
     
    MIFlyer likes this.
  12. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2008
    Messages:
    11,349
    Location:
    DXO124009
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Light and Sporty Guy
    “Those who don't know history are doomed to repeat it.” Edmund Burke

    What few people realize is that this idea of very light aircraft being used for training was tried way back in the thirties - several companies attempted to make what would now be LSAs, but of course due to the light weight there are hardly any surviving examples outside of a couple museums.
    [​IMG]
     
  13. Shepherd

    Shepherd En-Route

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2012
    Messages:
    3,902
    Location:
    Hopewell Jct, NY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Shepherd
    I absolutely agree.
    Retracts and variable\constant speed prop would be nice also. Make the planes more efficient. ;)
    Also the Germans make an awesome LS version of the P-51D and are working on a Spit that just happen to have both options. :rollercoaster:
     
    Stephen Poole likes this.
  14. Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe

    Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jun 7, 2008
    Messages:
    11,349
    Location:
    DXO124009
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Light and Sporty Guy
    If the objective is to promote access to aviation it would make an awful lot of sense to have the U.S. rules somewhat in line with the European airframe rules to broaden the sales base for manufactures on either side of the pond.

    We can be sure that will never happen.
     
  15. FlyingElvii

    FlyingElvii Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Jun 24, 2016
    Messages:
    531
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    flyingElvii
    Lots of the non-US “Light Sport” planes are certified at higher weights in the 1500-1600 lb Range, or even four pax, elsewhere, unmodified. The Jabiru 250 is called a 450 overseas, and carries 4. The Paradise is another example, rated to 1500 everywhere but here on the same motor. The IBIS or the Sirius are two more that come to mind
     
    denverpilot likes this.
  16. midwestpa24

    midwestpa24 Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2016
    Messages:
    1,351
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    midwestpa24
    I think the Czech Sport/PiperSport line was certified at higher in Europe as well. Thought I read somewhere 1600lbs, but I could be wrong.
     
  17. Shepherd

    Shepherd En-Route

    Joined:
    Nov 24, 2012
    Messages:
    3,902
    Location:
    Hopewell Jct, NY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Shepherd
    I see what you did there. :rolleyes:
     
  18. GeorgeC

    GeorgeC En-Route PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2010
    Messages:
    2,702
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    GeorgeC
    Nobody in their right mind would buy a plane from the 50s, much less the 30s.
     
    texasclouds and Ben2k9 like this.
  19. NordicDave

    NordicDave Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2015
    Messages:
    876
    Location:
    San Jose
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    NordicDave
    P-51 Mustangs are pretty cool.
     
    texasclouds and AndrewX like this.
  20. RyanShort1

    RyanShort1 En-Route

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2010
    Messages:
    2,908
    Location:
    Dallas, Texas
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    RyanShort1
    I WISH one could use an LSA for limited non-passenger Part 91 ops. We're flying a 40+ year old Cardinal and I'd love to try and see if a Pipistrel would work... since I doubt Cessna will ever build a new Cardinal.
     
    Todd82 likes this.
  21. Todd82

    Todd82 Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2017
    Messages:
    311
    Location:
    Southwest Ohio
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Todd
    I'd love to be able to use a (E)LSA for photo/videography work to get around expensive STC type stuff. Have a rough sketch of a husiness plan ready for it and a custom rig that we've flown in a 172 before. Any idiot with a drone can do stuff that even a licensed pilot with a commercial couldn't in a LSA.

    And there are a few LSA's I'd be interested in buying tomorrow as a $100 burger grabber, if they had enough payload for me and my buddy.
     
    MIFlyer likes this.
  22. N918KT

    N918KT Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Jan 13, 2013
    Messages:
    695
    Location:
    Philadelphia, PA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    KT
    Is there a NPRM posted for this yet, and if so what is the name of the NPRM and where can we find it?

    AOPA doesn't seem to mention any of the news regarding the LSA weight increase rulemaking other than only Avweb.

    EAA did mention they are working on LSA reform although it's not under a news article, only under the Top Issues page.
     
  23. Terry M - 3CK (Chicago)

    Terry M - 3CK (Chicago) Pre-takeoff checklist PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2006
    Messages:
    268
    Location:
    NE Illinois
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Terry
    I checked and google searched. Only AvWeb reported on this. Hmmmmm.
     
  24. NordicDave

    NordicDave Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2015
    Messages:
    876
    Location:
    San Jose
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    NordicDave
  25. Jeff767

    Jeff767 Pre-Flight

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2018
    Messages:
    73
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jeff767
    C
    Clearly you have never flown a light aircraft in Europe if you believe this. Europe is a hodgepodge of regulations that have strangled private aviation.
     
    NealRomeoGolf likes this.
  26. nauga

    nauga Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2013
    Messages:
    2,061
    Location:
    Rockwood Storage Facility
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Mantis Toboggan, MD
    That article is dated October 2018. The "promised" date for the NPRM was months ago and I don't believe there has ever been a hint of anything directly from the FAA that the weight increase was real and in lb not Kg. I'm not holding my breath.

    Nauga,
    and a game of telephone
     
  27. Stan Cooper

    Stan Cooper Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2017
    Messages:
    994
    Location:
    Santa Rosa, CA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Stan Cooper
    Lots of discussion about this over on sportpilottalk. The consensus from folks close to Terry Chasteen (FAA Program Manager for light sport aircraft) seems to be that any changes to the LSA rules regarding parameters like gross weight, cruise speed, stall speed, retractable gear, constant speed props, etc., will take three or four years.
     
  28. Terry M - 3CK (Chicago)

    Terry M - 3CK (Chicago) Pre-takeoff checklist PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 19, 2006
    Messages:
    268
    Location:
    NE Illinois
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Terry
    I was on sport pilot talk for a while @Stan Cooper and found it pretty dead.

    Are members pretty active there now?
     
  29. Warmi

    Warmi Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2017
    Messages:
    186
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Warmi
    It gets about 3-4 posts a day.
    It is not a chatting forum like this one - but if you ask a question, you will get an answer .
     
  30. Stan Cooper

    Stan Cooper Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2017
    Messages:
    994
    Location:
    Santa Rosa, CA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Stan Cooper
    Warmi nails it. ;)
     
  31. Dav8or

    Dav8or Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2007
    Messages:
    5,128
    Location:
    Discovery Bay, CA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Dave
    Maybe so, but all I know is one can buy this airplane, factory built, retractable gear, constant speed prop, turbo engine, runs on MOGAS and out performs my Mooney in every category except passenger seats, useful load, baggage area and range. It takes off shorter, climbs faster, cruises faster, has a higher service ceiling, burns less gas, lands shorter, still flies farther than I personally am able to stand in a cockpit and stalls way slower. All of this is LSA, or "ultralight" over there, not experimental and not certified.

    I WANT.

    VMB VL3

    [​IMG]
     
    ETres likes this.
  32. Warmi

    Warmi Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2017
    Messages:
    186
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Warmi
    Yes, it is a fast and great local fun flying machine but the reason it outperforms you Mooney is because it maxes out at 1320 lbs gross weight , which means it is a fair weather type of aircraft only.
    Again, great for what it was designed for but is not a replacement for a cross country , heavier plane like your Mooney.
     
  33. Dana

    Dana Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2016
    Messages:
    907
    Location:
    CT & NY
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Dana
    Just because the VL3 is light doesn't inherently make it a fair weather aircraft only, though it won't be as solid as a heavier plane. But with its speed and retractable gear, while it may be "ultralight" under other countries' rules, it's not LSA in the US.
     
  34. jallen0

    jallen0 Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    May 18, 2017
    Messages:
    188
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Jallen0
    The listed price was around $80,000. I could not find if that was the fully loaded or just bare bones configuration.
     
  35. Dav8or

    Dav8or Final Approach

    Joined:
    Jan 6, 2007
    Messages:
    5,128
    Location:
    Discovery Bay, CA
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Dave
    I get that. I think I am vastly different from most of regular forum posters in that I don't think useful load is the end all and be all of an airplane. I have no need to fill all the seats, fill the tanks all the way up, pack the baggage compartment full and then fly as far as I can go. However I think I'm pretty typical of the silent pilot population that don't post. 99.5% of the time I all by myself and hate flying longer than about 3 hours. The VL3 was made for me. I wish I could afford one. I would trade my Mooney in a heartbeat with zero regrets.

    Also, these birds can be flown IFR all day here in the US and they are fully equipped to do so. My point of bringing this plane up is, to illustrate how much better Europe's "ultralights" are compared to our ultralights, or even LSAs. Not even a contest. Europe blows us away.

    BTW, I went for a demo flight in VL3 at Oshkosh a few years ago and it was demonstrated to me that the performance numbers weren't just optimistic BS. I got some stick time and... love at first flight. Come on America!! Get with it!
     
    Eric Stoltz and ETres like this.
  36. Warmi

    Warmi Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2017
    Messages:
    186
    Display Name:

    Display name:
    Warmi
    I actually own and fly a similar plane from a competitor of VBM ( http://www.tl-ultralight.cz/en/ultralight-aircraft/tl-2000-sting-rg ) - although is a fixed gear version since that’s what can only be imported to this country at the moment.

    I do pretty much exactly the type of flying you do - buzzing around , mostly by myself in a decent weather so this sort of plane is all I need ...