Kenny Phillips
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Kenny Phillips
If by small, you mean width, then yeah. But there's all the legroom in the world; headroom, too, if you lower the seat.
LSA weight limit to be increased to 3600 lb!
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Brad Smith
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Usually the government moves more slowly in establishing changes in regulations. Doubling the gross weight limitations for LSA? I’ll take the position of “wait and see.”
Juliet Hotel
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Juliet Hotel
Width is definitely the issue with the skyhawks. But that's the thing with cabin size. Two out of three doesn't get it in my book. You really need all three. You can have a 55" wide cabin, but if your knees hit the panel or you've got to tilt your head to keep from hitting the ceiling, its not going to be a comfortable flight. You really need all three (leg room, shoulder width, ceiling height) and the 172 just doesn't have it.
Lachlan
En-Route
Needing a large amount of useful load is understandable, but you’re lamenting not having what is nearly the same useful load as most smaller 4 seat certificated airplanes, AND you want LSA gph fuel burn. Best of luck.
Crashnburn
Pattern Altitude
Needing a large amount of useful load is understandable, but you’re lamenting not having what is nearly the same useful load as most smaller 4 seat certificated airplanes, AND you want LSA gph fuel burn. Best of luck.
I didn't say I wanted LSA fuel burn (who doesn't want a low fuel burn), I was just saying what it is. The useful load would calculate out to even more if I used the 4 seat certified (correct spelling, btw) fuel burn of 8 to 9 gph.
BTW, when I worked for Cessna, I had occasion to sit in their (now discontinued) Mustang. It had plenty of shoulder and headroom in the cockpit, but not enough leg room under the Instrument Panel.
Half Fast
Touchdown! Greaser!
Buy a Jabiru and move the passenger seat to the back. It’s a 4-seater in Australia anyway. Plenty of shoulder room for both of you that way.
Crashnburn
Pattern Altitude
That is an idea. Even with the Jabiru, however, the LSA weight limit makes it a non-starter.
However, I fit in an Evektor sport, and it has an adequate useful load, even with the heavier Rotax 914 turbo. You can customize it to a fair amount when you order it, and you can also get it as a kit, assemble it in about 200 hours (factory number, double for home use), and save 15 to 20 AMUs. If I went new, I'd put a Rotax 912 is Sport in it, and get the optional airbox and tuned exhaust. They are also available used. The kit has to be licensed as a E-SLA because it's considerably more than 50% done when you get the kit. I could get a LSA inspector's permit and a LSA repair permit for it, and I also have my A&P, but it's not anywhere near current.
However, I fit in an Evektor sport, and it has an adequate useful load, even with the heavier Rotax 914 turbo. You can customize it to a fair amount when you order it, and you can also get it as a kit, assemble it in about 200 hours (factory number, double for home use), and save 15 to 20 AMUs. If I went new, I'd put a Rotax 912 is Sport in it, and get the optional airbox and tuned exhaust. They are also available used. The kit has to be licensed as a E-SLA because it's considerably more than 50% done when you get the kit. I could get a LSA inspector's permit and a LSA repair permit for it, and I also have my A&P, but it's not anywhere near current.
Half Fast
Touchdown! Greaser!
The Jab flies at a higher weight overseas, so I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that a few nefarious US pilots might be flaunting the law and flying the thing with a few extra illegal pounds....
Shepherd
Final Approach
Never happen. Pilots are too morally and ethically superior to even contemplate such a thing.
But you could park a Fiat in the back of one and forget it's there. By mistake.
Half Fast
Touchdown! Greaser!
Good point. Pilots are the most ethically pure folks on earth.
Besides, there’s a high probability of getting a ramp check by an inspector who happens to have scales with him. Isn’t there?
FastEddieB
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Fast Eddie B
Stipulated that would be an extremely low probability occurrence*.
Higher on the probability scale, however, is an inspector with scales being part of an accident or incident investigation, even if the suspected over gross condition had nothing to do with said accident or incident.
So, do you feel lucky, punk?
*Sarcasm duly noted.
Half Fast
Touchdown! Greaser!
Stipulated that would be an extremely low probability occurrence*.
Higher on the probability scale, however, is an inspector with scales being part of an accident or incident investigation, even if the suspected over gross condition had nothing to do with said accident or incident.
So, do you feel lucky, punk?
*Sarcasm duly noted.
Yeah, I feel lucky.
How many accident reports have you read where they weighed the pilot and passenger and recovered the leaked fuel from the ground to weigh it? If you’re hauling hundreds of pounds of cargo a weight exceedance might be obvious. 30 pounds of extra luggage? Nah....
Shepherd
Final Approach
I have been doing this flying thing since 1963 and I have never been ramp checked.
Of course, I have probably just screwed myself. sigh.....................
FastEddieB
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Fast Eddie B
https://www.ntsb.gov/about/employme...ev_id=20001208X07205&ntsbno=MIA97FA047&akey=1
In part...
Weight and balance calculations were performed using the airplane licensed empty weight with oil (1,182 pounds), the weight of the pilot based on a February 1996, medical (255 pounds), information provided by one of the co-owners of the airplane pertaining to fuel on board at the time of takeoff (126 pounds), and the weight of the passenger based on a statement from his mother (172 pounds). The airplane weight at the time of takeoff was calculated to be 1,729.4 pounds including fuel used to start the engine taxi, and perform an engine run-up. The airplane weight at the time of the accident was calculated to be 1,711.4 pounds including 18 pounds of fuel consumed during the 21-minute flight. According to the pilot's operating manual the gross weight of the airplane is 1,650 pounds.
My plane. Two dead. Maybe why I’m a little sensitive.
Lachlan
En-Route
“The information pertaining to the missing hardware for the left wing aft hinge was provided in person to Detective Robert O'Neil of the Broward County Sheriff's Office while viewing the suspect area on December 27, 1996, about 1730 hours eastern standard time.” Sounds more like shoddy maintenance rather than being 60 lbs overweight, but I don’t work for the FAA or NTSB, or the sheriff.
FastEddieB
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Fast Eddie B
“The information pertaining to the missing hardware for the left wing aft hinge was provided in person to Detective Robert O'Neil of the Broward County Sheriff's Office while viewing the suspect area on December 27, 1996, about 1730 hours eastern standard time.” Sounds more like shoddy maintenance rather than being 60 lbs overweight, but I don’t work for the FAA or NTSB, or the sheriff.
I doubt I will ever know for sure what happened. There was no reason any of the wing attach bolts would have been touched during an annual inspection, and we had never performed maintenance on them.
At the time I was in the gym business. My partner and I were both ex-cops. But some of our nearby competition was a bit seedy. One such was Sun Gym, the Sun Gym featured in the movie “Pain and Gain”. Its quite glorified in that movie, but many of the major plot points are based on a true story. It’s not inconceivable that someone tinkered with the plane in an attempt to kill me. Like I said, barring some sort of deathbed confession I’ll likely never know.
Being overweight was just a link in a chain. No way of knowing if the wing would have failed had the plane not been over gross when whatever aerobatic maneuver went awry. But I’m sure it didn’t help.
DaleB
Final Approach
Luck of the draw. I got ramp checked as a student pilot. I got the task of distracting the FAA guy while my CFI, who had forgotten his wallet that day, slipped around the back and past him.
Him: Hi, I'm <guy's name> from the FAA FSDO office. Here's my card.
Me: Oh, FAA, huh? I've been meaning to ask you guys... am I supposed to get some sort of license or something to fly these things? It's a lot of fun.
Him: Well, you don't HAVE to. It's just more paperwork for me if you don't, but I'm on salary.
We got along OK.
Half Fast
Touchdown! Greaser!
I can understand why you’re sensitive to it. OTOH, that was a true weight limit, not a paperwork regulation game for a plane designed and certified to a higher weight like the Jabiru.
Kenny Phillips
Final Approach
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Kenny Phillips
I got ramp checked a couple decades ago just weeks after they announced increased ramp checks. But I've never been called for jury duty ...
AndrewX
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Andrew
This would require common sense from the FAA.
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Mantis Toboggan, MD
19 January has come and gone. Anyone heard anything other than silence?
Nauga,
forever holding his piece
N659HB
En-Route
Ah, you know everything is backlogged due to the partial shutdown. Give it a couple of years...
Crashnburn
Pattern Altitude
Well, the Liberty XL (Now Discovery XL) has a near LSA fuel burn, carries an adequate useful load (with the Vanguard upgrade), is IFR equipped, and used sells for about what most used LSA's sell for. It also flies a bit faster than most LSAs, at least according to the factory, and we all know how accurate factory specs are, don't we?Needing a large amount of useful load is understandable, but you’re lamenting not having what is nearly the same useful load as most smaller 4 seat certificated airplanes, AND you want LSA gph fuel burn. Best of luck.
Warmi
Line Up and Wait
Well, it is not a matter of technical capabilities but rather paper rules - there are quite a few LSAs that are certified to 1500 or 1600 lbs outside of US and are limited to 1320 as a Light Sport plane in the US.
Having this gross limit lifted would allow for more non-certified ( light sport ) planes to fit just the category you are asking for - 1600-1700 lbs gross and with a modern fuel injected , turbo charged Rotax 915is at 140 HP even make for decent performers.
Having this gross limit lifted would allow for more non-certified ( light sport ) planes to fit just the category you are asking for - 1600-1700 lbs gross and with a modern fuel injected , turbo charged Rotax 915is at 140 HP even make for decent performers.
Half Fast
Touchdown! Greaser!
One other item....
LSAs are required to have a stall speed of 45 knots or less. Raising the weight will also raise that stall speed.
Just another rule change, since the planes already fly heavier outside the US, but something to keep in mind.
Lachlan
En-Route
That’s pretty cool. I thought you were originally looking at LSAs that had the useful load of a type certificated
airframe? In case you lost your medical, like you hypothetically mentioned. I think it’s ok to say “type certificated.” The FAA does.
https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/gen_av/light_sport/media/ExistingModels.pdf
frfly172
Touchdown! Greaser!
I own and fly a liberty,fuel burn averages between 5.2 and 6 gallons per hr. Does book numbers,and is a joy to fly. I have over 1500 hrs.,it has the increased Gross weight. A little difficult to enter and exit ,as I get older.
Crashnburn
Pattern Altitude
Thank you for the pilot report . I've wondered about the real performance .
There are only a few light sport aircraft that meet my mission and they aren't anywhere close to what I can afford
Todd82
Line Up and Wait
How's maintenance and parts availability on them? No worse than any other relatively uncommon bird?
Crashnburn
Pattern Altitude
Not an owner, but the Liberty (now Discovery) XL was designed for easy maintenance, and the factory is producing more airplanes and parts now. The Continental is pretty standard, except for the FADEC, and some owners have a hard time finding technician familiar with them.