Low RPM, High MP....High RPM, High MP

Unit74

Final Approach
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Unit74
Why do we desire fly at lower RpM full rental power when physics tells us that higher RPM gets more molecules moving?

I messed around with low RPM, High MP in the the TIO540 today and saw little if any difference worth discussing, performance wise.
 
“Rental power” and your chosen method may factor in when one considers “owner power” and engine longevity. ;)
 
“Rental power” and your chosen method may factor in when one considers “owner power” and engine longevity. ;)


How so? The Lyc TIO can generally run 30” and you choose the RPM.
 
How so? The Lyc TIO can generally run 30” and you choose the RPM.

Maybe I’m misunderstanding what you’re referring to as “full rental power.” Consider, then, that rpm does not always equate to more air molecules moved unless you’re specifically discussing fixed pitch props. There’s horsepower and there’s torque. Like cars, sort of. 4500rpm in 4th gear @ 75 mph or 2600rpm in 6th gear at 75 mph. Sure, manifold pressure is different, but so is available power and torque. Add a turbo and once again, that changes things.
 
An oversimplification, but think of the gears on a bicycle and how you use them to maximize your torque, power, and rpm (pedal revolutions) needs for given terrain. High manifold pressure with low RPMs is like having your bike in a high gear, with low pedal crank RPMs, requiring you to REALLY horse on the pedals, quickly wearing yourself out especially if you're going uphill or trying to accelerate. You use gears on a bike to try and maintain your pedal cadence, say 70 rpms, so that you get the maximum endurance out of yourself and the most out of your efforts. Downhill? Higher gear ratio yielding more speed per pedal crank revolution, but still staying in your cadence comfort zone, with the same overall amount of effort given by the rider.

High manifold pressure with low RPMs is the equivalevent of asking your engine to drive up a steep hill in high gear. Yes, you can "coast" like that, but why? If a particularly muscular bicyclist can ride uphill in a high gear, does that mean he should? When you (or your engine) is really pumping, you (and your engine) are happiest when you're getting more RPMs for your work, and it's less stress on the whole drive chain.

I think...
 
I did a 2 hour flight down to Texas and messed with a number of power settings. Rally the changes were nominal. The end I liked 65% 164 knots at 13.9 gph. I had rpms are 2350.
 
Not everyone likes to go slow....

I’m in the go fast at high rpm camp. 22”, 2450. Maybe I’ll regret it. But that’s also the smoothest RPM.

Maybe there’s a reason (among many others) that more of today’s cars easily go over 150k miles. Overdrive transmissions. Maybe.
 
Do we care what the prop's most efficient rpm is? Are these published anywhere?
 
Do we care what the prop's most efficient rpm is? Are these published anywhere?
I don’t know but props are most efficient turning slower, engines want to run faster. Thus geared setups tend to attract optimalists until they try to tackle gear box issues.


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When you getting a top overhaul the only thing going fast will be the money from your bank account when you are sitting on the ground.

I rebuilt my motorcycle engines, sometimes, after one weekend race. That's the price of going fast. But that's not the point of my post though. I wasn't asking about flying like a little girl scared of spiders and worms. I'm asking about how to squeeze the lemon at L/D and what RPM/MP seems to be the most efficient. :cheers:
 
About the only time I bring the rpm back (2500) is when I am running a really low manifold pressure <15". That low of a manifold pressure with the high rpm makes the engine hard to run LOP.
 
2,500 RPM is the most efficient prop speed and engine combo for mine. I'll run that square (~70%) or over square (~80%) sometimes in go-fast mode. ;)

If what you want is the most "range for your speed"...what you want is to maintain the Carson speed...."The EAA reports Carson's speed is 1.316x the best glide (best L/D) speed, which CAFE measured as 95 MPH for the RV-9A. So, for the various RV models, we have the theoretical best MPG speeds as follows, One small clarification - Carson's speed is not the speed for best miles per gallon"
 
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I'm asking about how to squeeze the lemon at L/D and what RPM/MP seems to be the most efficient. :cheers:
I like the way you put that.

This is a bit off topic but I don’t think any of this discussion has anything to do with how to ‘squeeze the lemon at L/D’. Our airframes are most efficient at much lower speeds though the optimal speeds for best point to point performance are higher than that.

The focus here would seem to be how to get the most cruise speed out of a given engine/prop/airframe combination with the airframe remaining a constant and engine/prop being manipulated with the throttle prop and mixture. And doing that without throwing chunks of metal.

Answer? I don’t know but listening carefully.



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John Deakin in Pelican Perch #16 says:
But generally speaking, for any given power, the lowest possible RPM will reduce friction within the engine, and this may be the most important parameter.

Your POH should outline permissible MAP/RPM combinations. I prefer to turn down RPM until the engine and airframe “sounds” happiest (smooth and quiet). I find minimal decreases in IAS and some decrease in GPH doing this.
 
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I've always gone for the lowest RPM for the power setting I desire, as outlined in the tables in my POH. I figure lower RPM means less wear and tare on the prop and engine, and is quieter and smoother. If the manufacturer has said I can do it I'm fairly certain it's OK. That said, I own my airplane. Were I renting I think I'd just let 'er rip. If it breaks it's someone else's problem. Not nice I know, but that's the fate of rentals. I'd never lease out my own airplane. Too many people out there like me.
 
I rebuilt my motorcycle engines, sometimes, after one weekend race. That's the price of going fast. But that's not the point of my post though. I wasn't asking about flying like a little girl scared of spiders and worms. I'm asking about how to squeeze the lemon at L/D and what RPM/MP seems to be the most efficient. :cheers:

Efficiency is not as simple as MP/RPM.
 
Wear from a friction cycle standpoint is what you get from higher RPM. That’s what I’m doing to my TCM IO-470 when I wring it out at 2450 rpm (22”).

But you also get wear from higher cylinder pressures. The higher pressure pushes piston rings against the cylinders and piston ring lands harder and causes greater wear than lower cylinder pressures. Running lower rpm at higher MP causes higher cylinder pressures.

So what takes our engines out of service sooner rather than later? Cylinder wear? What’s the root cause of that wear, is it cycles or pressure? It’s both, but which plays the greater role? I and most others on this forum probably don’t know. We can hypothesize and discuss, but don’t have data.

In the mean time we can look to old guys who have TCM engines that have not been topped.
 
you're assuming higher rpms increase wear....is that really the case?
 
I get cooler CHTs, lower FF and the same TAS when I pull the prop back to 2300 RPM from 2500 RPM if I increase MP to get the same % power. That gives me 200 less revolutions per minute, 12,000 less per hour, and 24 million less revolutions over the expected life of the engine (2000 hour TBO). Does the increased cylinder pressure make up for the 24 million more revolutions? I don’t know, but for now I’m happy with the lower CHT and fuel flow. Compression checks, borescope and oil analysis look great. If the lower RPM really had that much effect on the rings, I would expect it to show up on the oil analysis and it does not.

In a rental, I don’t care.
Lower CHTs are a result of more fuel being poured in
 
Lower CHTs are a result of more fuel being poured in
or less heat is generated in the cylinder head.....which occurs lean of peak EGT. In that case the combustion event is occurring "later" and more combustion is occurring in the exhaust vs the cylinder chamber....raising the exhaust gas temps and lowering the CHTs.
 
In the context of low utilization piston engines, higher vs lower RPM engine longevity (when talking about the difference between the notional 24 or 2500RPM, and the more outlier 2200RPM preference) is a canard. There is no consequential difference in longevity in this context. Conti cylinders are gonna crap out on ya regardless, as a matter of course and nominal 1000-hour-amortized use. Some will get lucky with a specific batch. Some won't. Longevity sigma is much larger for contis than Lycos (aka Contis are a bigger crapshoot, Lycos are more clustered together).

Rated power otoh does seem to have a more marked impact on longevity. That TSIO-550 80+% (and the like for the Lyco TIO) power tables will indeed shorten you up by 500 or more hours. That is a monetary difference you do notice inside of a decade. 65% rated power seems to be the concensus of balance between performance and longevity. 75% could be doable with a high utilization Lyco, def not Conti.

Corrosion and low utilization > RPM selection

My opinion and what you paid for it :D
 
Lindberg suggested running engines at full throttle and very low rpm back in the day to get best fuel economy
Leaving the throttle plate wide open makes sense from an efficiency standpoint, the engine at that point is basically operating at its maximum design capability

it would be interesting though to compare the power curves of a propeller and engine and see where the two intersect from an RPM stand point though.. if horsepower is the rate at which work is being done then higher RPM will be your friend, granted you will lose propeller efficiency, so there's a compromise in there somewhere (assuming no gearbox, although even with the gearbox there's a compromise since the gearbox itself will burn up some energy)

I've seen plenty of power curves for Lycomings and Continentals, but I've never actually managed to find one for a propeller.. surely they exist somewhere, my dad's boat had a feathering propeller for sailing efficiency, and it came with an RPM power curve that you had to match with your diesel and get the pitch right correctly when it was on dry dock.. too fine the engine will just spin up in the boat wouldn't move well, and too course and you wouldn't be able to get the RPM's up into a satisfactory powerband range
 
Here’s my sweet spot on a tailwind leg. From today’s flight from KLEE to Durham NC.

A sloppy 21 squared, 156 TAS burning 9.8GPH at 9K. 56% power per the Lyc IO-540 table. Smooth and quiet

d500fa9eac4366cb39d11e5d9086b695.jpg



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Nice Bill... I bet you have lots tied in to that to save all that gas. ;)
 
Why do we desire fly at lower RpM full rental power when physics tells us that higher RPM gets more molecules moving?

What makes you go is not only how many molecules you move, but also how hard you throw 'em backwards.

Not everyone likes to go slow....

Being nice to your engine doesn't mean "slow". Flogging it at 75 vs a more normal cruise at 65 is theoretically a hair under a 5% difference in cruise speed.

In the real world, I can be nice to my Mooney's engine and get 175 KTAS on 12 gph, or I can beat it up and get 185 KTAS on 17 gph. That means I get 34% more miles per dollar than the guy who pushes it, while only going 5% slower... And that completely ignores the fact that on a $50,000 engine, beating it up is foolish and will cost you way more than the difference in fuel.

An oversimplification, but think of the gears on a bicycle and how you use them to maximize your torque, power, and rpm (pedal revolutions) needs for given terrain. High manifold pressure with low RPMs is like having your bike in a high gear, with low pedal crank RPMs, requiring you to REALLY horse on the pedals, quickly wearing yourself out especially if you're going uphill or trying to accelerate. You use gears on a bike to try and maintain your pedal cadence, say 70 rpms, so that you get the maximum endurance out of yourself and the most out of your efforts. Downhill? Higher gear ratio yielding more speed per pedal crank revolution, but still staying in your cadence comfort zone, with the same overall amount of effort given by the rider.

High manifold pressure with low RPMs is the equivalevent of asking your engine to drive up a steep hill in high gear. Yes, you can "coast" like that, but why? If a particularly muscular bicyclist can ride uphill in a high gear, does that mean he should? When you (or your engine) is really pumping, you (and your engine) are happiest when you're getting more RPMs for your work, and it's less stress on the whole drive chain.

I think...

But if you think of your bike, we're pretty much talking the difference between two adjacent gears here. For cruise, my entire range of options for RPM is 2300 through 2500, not even a 10% difference, so while the higher gear will have you pushing harder, it's not anywhere near the difference you're thinking about.

Plus, the engine at lower RPM, while it does have more work to do in terms of the combustion and mechanical aspects of turning that into torque and then thrust, it has LESS work to do to pump air into the intake and overcome friction in the engine. It's still 65% (or whatever).

I’m in the go fast at high rpm camp. 22”, 2450. Maybe I’ll regret it. But that’s also the smoothest RPM.

May I suggest a dynamic prop balance. One of the most underutilized maintenance procedures in GA! It'll not only help your engine run smoother, that smoother running will keep all the other parts on your plane from getting shaken apart.

Do we care what the prop's most efficient rpm is? Are these published anywhere?

I've never seen it, but I sure wish they were! All I know is that when the prop tips near the speed of sound, you lose a helluva lot of efficiency - You're making the power into noise instead of thrust at that point.

So what takes our engines out of service sooner rather than later? Cylinder wear? What’s the root cause of that wear, is it cycles or pressure? It’s both, but which plays the greater role? I and most others on this forum probably don’t know. We can hypothesize and discuss, but don’t have data.

Deakin, Braly et al *do* have data, and recommend the lower RPM.

In the mean time we can look to old guys who have TCM engines that have not been topped.

Hey, who are you callin' old? :p

Yes, I run my airplane at 65%, lean of peak, high RPM, low MP (generally WOT). Everyone has been telling me forever that there's no way I'll ever make TBO on my Conti IO-550.

They were right - My partner was flying the plane when it hit TBO. All of my flying is merely getting it farther and farther above TBO.
 
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