Lost the HSI in IMC yesterday

sba55

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sba55
I wasn't going to post this at first because I'm not sure if it's all that interesting and because the way I handled this is far from perfect. Nevertheless, I hope it's somewhat interesting and I'd love to hear what people would have done differently.

All of California had pretty bad (for this area, at least) weather on Monday. Down in Los Angeles, it was fairly warm (about 55 degrees or so on the ground). The entire area was broken-overcast, with tops around 9000'. Our destination, the Bay Area, was worse. Tops were about the same, but the bases were down around 3000' and the temps were much lower. At our destination, it was raining and about 45 degrees when we left Ontaria Intl. There was also an AIRMET for light ice, but looking at that situation more closely, I didn't expect to have any sort of significant icing encounter.

We had a beautiful 2 hour flight from Ontario to the Bay. Until we were about 50 miles from landing, we were on top at 10,000', it was smooth and sunny, and the visibility was great. Then we descended into the clouds, which were a bit bumpy.

Right as we were about to intercept the localizer, things started going a bit wrong (at that point, we were in solid IMC). We had just received our approach clearance and were on a vector to intercept. First I noticed that the nav flag had come on, but at that point, we were quite a ways away from the localizer (something like 15 miles or so) and outside the charted approach so I figured that it was a temporary, terrain induced issue. I did check the ident tone, though, and I remember thinking that it wasn't a good sign that it sounded just fine, like we should be receiving it. We were also picking up DME for the loc just fine, so I had a feeling that something wasn't right.

I told ATC that we had lost the localizer. Since we were still a few miles away from the very first fix on the approach, I figured that we might pick it up again and that we might be able to re-intercept. ATC gave us vectors, and right at that moment, the HSI flag came on. It's amazing how training really helps out here. I was concerned about being at 4000' right next to Mt Diablo (~3900') and I had decided beforehand that if I ever lost the HSI/AI in IMC, I'd declare. Because of that, making that decision only took me a few seconds.

Luckily, the cloud bases were high enough so that ATC could just vector us down over the airport. We still had the AI and the #2 CDI.

I figured we had one good shot at getting into Hayward because if we had passed it, then we'd be right over Oakland/SFO and that probably wouldn't help things. I was also trying to decide if I wanted to climb and take some delay vectors to troubleshoot a bit more, but the HSI hickup had also knocked out our autopilot, so I figured that troubleshooting in IMC while hand-flying probably wasn't the best idea.

Anyways, hope you enjoy the

clip!

Criticism more than welcome!

-Felix

PS: Please try to ignore my horrendous accent! :redface:
 
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Felix:

You're here to tell about it. Successful outcome. Wouldn't you rather ask for help you don't need, than need help and not ask? You were uncertain what all you could rely upon, your decision to declare was well-founded.

Good judgment. Thanks for sharing.

===

Edit: What Steve said!
 
Felix - Thanks for posting. I just finished listening to the audio file and ya done good!
 
Luckily, the cloud bases were high enough so that ATC could just vector us down over the airport. We still had the AI and the #2 CDI.

Great job!

I am really glad our nav2/CDI2 has GS.
 
Felix,

I think you did a good job. I'm impressed that you had that scenario drawn out in your head before hand and you stuck to it. You recognized it early, you reacted and you used all available resources at your disposal to get the airplane on the ground safely.

Kudos to you.
 
Great job, Felix. I am also impressed at how calmly and efficiently the controller acted to assist you, while working other traffic too. Kudos to you both!

-Skip
 
This is more of a question for my future reference:

Did declaring an emergency get you anything you wouldn't have already gotten from ATC? You were already inbound on the approach, and his 'solution' was simply to give more detailed vectors. It didn't seem as though you received any sort of preferential treatment, other than maybe he paid a little more attention to your blip on his scope. Did you get anything extra from ATC by saying the taboo 'E' word that you wouldn't have gotten by simply stating "We lost our Gyro. Request vectors to approach."? Did you have any extra paperwork to fill out on the ground?

As I said, this isn't an accusation saying you SHOULDN'T have declared, I'm just curious as to if it was worthwhile (for my future reference). By the way -- great job of staying calm, cool, and collected through the ordeal! I think the ATC supervisor at that facility also deserves a letter of 'attaboy' for that controller's ability to keep you out of the rocks, and maintain his traffic flow going simultaneously while keeping his wits about him.
 
This is more of a question for my future reference:

Did declaring an emergency get you anything you wouldn't have already gotten from ATC? You were already inbound on the approach, and his 'solution' was simply to give more detailed vectors. It didn't seem as though you received any sort of preferential treatment, other than maybe he paid a little more attention to your blip on his scope. Did you get anything extra from ATC by saying the taboo 'E' word that you wouldn't have gotten by simply stating "We lost our Gyro. Request vectors to approach."? Did you have any extra paperwork to fill out on the ground?
I agree with you that, in most circumstances, it doesn't really matter if you explicitly declare or not. Lost gyro in IMC will most likely cause the controller to declare for you anyway. Here's the relevant part from 7110.65:

c. If the words "Mayday" or "Pan-Pan" are not used and you are in doubt that a situation constitutes an emergency or potential emergency, handle it as though it were an emergency.

The reason I like to explicitly say that this is an emergency is mostly for clarity and to reduce the chance of miscommunication. Also, it gets the whole process moving (sup is notified, tower is notified, etc.) right away, and there wasn't that much time in this particular situation. No, there wasn't any paperwork. I think this goes to show that using the e-word really isn't that big of a deal.

I think the ATC supervisor at that facility also deserves a letter of 'attaboy' for that controller's ability to keep you out of the rocks, and maintain his traffic flow going simultaneously while keeping his wits about him.
Absolutely. I've spend some time over at Norcal; they do run a great operation.

-Felix
 
I agree with you that, in most circumstances, it doesn't really matter if you explicitly declare or not. Lost gyro in IMC will most likely cause the controller to declare for you anyway. Here's the relevant part from 7110.65:



The reason I like to explicitly say that this is an emergency is mostly for clarity and to reduce the chance of miscommunication. Also, it gets the whole process moving (sup is notified, tower is notified, etc.) right away, and there wasn't that much time in this particular situation. No, there wasn't any paperwork. I think this goes to show that using the e-word really isn't that big of a deal.


Absolutely. I've spend some time over at Norcal; they do run a great operation.

-Felix


Makes sense. Thanks!

CJ
 
Sounds like you handled that really well!

I had a similar situation several years ago going into Chicago Executive (PWK). The Chicago area was solid overcast with tops around 4,000 and a 600 foot ceiling. I was approaching Chicago from the east at 2,400 over Lake Michigan. shortly after my decent to 2,400 my HSI failed due to a problem with the gyro. The head started to turn continuously making it useless. I was in rather turbulent conditions and I doubt I was as composed as you were. I called ATC right away to tell them that my HSI failed and I was without a directional gyro. The controller immediately answered me by giving me a new heading to intercept the localizer. I probably should have declared an emergency to get his attention. I had my hands full at that point and I concentrated on flying the airplane and I used my handheld GPS in HSI mode for directional information. My wet compass was of little help in the turbulence.

I know my approach must have been erratic but I was able to intercept the localizer and glide slope using my number two nav head. Then just as I was breaking out of the clouds ATC asked me if I needed any special handling. I said thanks but they were a little late with the offer and I had things under control.

Jeannie
 
Well done Felix. You advised of problem, maintained composure and got her home safely. No critisism from this part of the peanut gallery.
 
I wasn't going to post this at first because I'm not sure if it's all that interesting and because the way I handled this is far from perfect.

Great story, glad you were able to get the audio to go with it! That really made your story come alive.

What do you think you "handled far from perfect"? I'd say it was pretty darn close... as Jason said, you had a plan in advance, and executed it when needed. What's not to like?
 
Just curious, why didn't you just fly it on #2 if you still had that?
That would have been my second choice if they hadn't been able to vector us. But seeing as though the HSI and autopilot were gone, I didn't feel like flying a partial panel approach, especially since the transition from HSI+autopilot to partial panel all happened within less than a minute.

-Felix
 
That would have been my second choice if they hadn't been able to vector us. But seeing as though the HSI and autopilot were gone, I didn't feel like flying a partial panel approach, especially since the transition from HSI+autopilot to partial panel all happened within less than a minute.

-Felix

Had the DG portion of it failed as well? No big deal either way, there's always more than one way to skin a cat....
 
Had the DG portion of it failed as well? No big deal either way, there's always more than one way to skin a cat....
Yeah, the #2 CDI is just one of those electronic CDIs without anything else. The HSI was completely dead (it's electric, too, so nothing was moving there).

So we didn't have any DG whatsoever. Otherwise, I think things would have turned out differently.

Thanks for all the responses, everyone! :)

-Felix
 
Couldn't have been done any better. I was impressed at how calm you were. Good job!
 
This is more of a question for my future reference:

Did declaring an emergency get you anything you wouldn't have already gotten from ATC?

Declaring "got" several potentially useful "things". One is the controllers significant attention, making it far less likely that ATC will forget or delay a handoff, turn you late, or vector you too close to the FAF. Another is that you won't be getting sent into a hold or series of delay vectors to expedite other traffic. You also won't be getting chastised for making minor mistakes as ATC will no doubt cut you some extra slack and at the same time keep a more careful watch on your flight to detect mistakes of a more serious nature.
 
but the HSI hickup had also knocked out our autopilot...

What autopilot do you have? Many but not all have a wing leveler mode that functions without a working DG or HSI. In addition some will even track a GPS or VOR course as long as the HSI isn't spinning around. Obviously you didn't need the autopilot and it sure sounds like you did a fine job of handling the situation but depending on the autopilot model, you may still have some useful functionality in a situation like you faced.
 
What autopilot do you have? Many but not all have a wing leveler mode that functions without a working DG or HSI. In addition some will even track a GPS or VOR course as long as the HSI isn't spinning around. Obviously you didn't need the autopilot and it sure sounds like you did a fine job of handling the situation but depending on the autopilot model, you may still have some useful functionality in a situation like you faced.
Bendix FCS-810 (yes, it's horrible - going for a 55X real soon now). As far as I know, it can't just level the wings. It will work even with the HSI inop, but if you want to level the wings, you'll also have to have it track the heading/vor course that is selected. Since the HSI was out, those two selections were fixed, and they wouldn't have been much help for long.

If there's another way, I'd sure like to hear about it.

-Felix
 
Good work and good decision.
Having done it both ways I am now firmly in the camp that says if stuff is going wrong declare the emergency.
The HSI failure could have been, for example, the first thing to start to go in a series of failures. By declaring you already have ATC's attention.
There is no downside. If even in the slightest bit of doubt as to whether or not to declare an emergency, do so.
 
Did declaring an emergency get you anything you wouldn't have already gotten from ATC? You were already inbound on the approach, and his 'solution' was simply to give more detailed vectors. It didn't seem as though you received any sort of preferential treatment, other than maybe he paid a little more attention to your blip on his scope.

And that right there might be the difference between life and death in some cases.

It's better to declare before you really need the additional help - It might keep you from getting into a situation where you do need the additional help!

However, I must admit to a pair of recent engine stumbles in two different airplanes where I did not declare. Maybe I'm spoiled by our excellent ATC here, but a simple "Approach, 71G is coming back to the field" raised their attention enough to advise that I was cleared to land on any runway and that another airport was close to me if I needed it.

Maybe I should have declared, as if the engine did fail completely they'd have already been alerted to the possibility. As it was, I had reason to believe the engine was going to keep running so I simply stayed at 5500 until really late in the game. With a stiff headwind going back to the field, I ended up having what looked like a 45-degree glide angle once I cut power after I knew I had the field made. (Had the engine actually quit, I could have easily turned around and made it to 87Y up until that point anyway.)

Did you get anything extra from ATC by saying the taboo 'E' word that you wouldn't have gotten by simply stating "We lost our Gyro. Request vectors to approach."? Did you have any extra paperwork to fill out on the ground?

Ugh. Too many people think the E-word generates paperwork. I've never heard of a pilot having to do any paperwork after declaring. Unfortunately, I'm sure that there have been cases where someone didn't declare for fear of paperwork and then didn't have the help when they needed it. :( That myth needs to be quashed.

Felix: Ya done good. :yes:
 
I've declared twice. Once for ice, once for a rough engine. Got the priority handling I needed. No paperwork. In the icing situation, I cancelled the emergency once I was out of the icing and started to shed it.
 
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