Lost contact on flight following...

cowman

cowman

Final Approach
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I was on FF once and they changed my call from "Archer" to "Cherokee" and I know I missed at least one of their attempts to contact me as I was listening for "Archer" on the radio and I don't remember what I was doing but was distracted at the moment, probably looking up something on a chart.

My question is, if I hadn't ever answered what happens? Maybe my radio had a problem or I didn't hear... or something like that. What will ATC do? Do they call search and rescue?

If I'm flying along and realize that somehow I missed ATC completely and I've got to be way out of the last sector I was talking to, what am I required to do? Am I required to call anyone or do I just squawk 1200 and forget about it?

All assuming I'm not in airspace requiring a clearance.
 
If on flight following,they will continue to try and raise you.they can continue to follow the transponder.i would leave the code your assigned . Sooner or later your going to have to talk to some one. Call ATC sooner than later.
 
If there's other traffic near you they might ask them to perform a relay to you. I've been asked to do this many times over the remote Intermountain West.
 
Great question- this has happened to me too where I had a radio issue and could not hear ATC for a while. I did hear them eventually and the controller was not mad. He said he had attempted to contact me and got no response.

I would assume that ATC has a responsibility to continue to attempt to contact you until you are out of their sector. At that point that would be unable to initiate a handoff to the next sector and you would be dropped from flight following. If you called the next sector by looking it up in foreflight and told them your squawk code I guess they may still see you but would probably have to re-identify you.

This is all just a guess, I'm curious to hear from the experts on this.
 
Not an expert...that said, I fly in the hills a lot and tend to lose contact with ATC...as I understand it now ATC is required to report a pilot deviation if FF contact is lost and the pilot never checks in...sounds a little weird but that's the story I've heard.

So as other folks mentioned try for a relay to ATC on your last frequency or use the next one shown on your low level chart (you have one of those, right?) or call flight service and tell them what's going on (I think you have to talk to a flight data person). I've lost FF a few minutes before landing at an unattended airport and called FS on the ground...the airport manager showed up and said the FAA had called him already and asked him to check.

The result is I tend to cancel FF early in the hills. Not exactly an ideal situation but maybe better than a PD, maybe not.

On another note, I have gotten relays from airliners - those folks have been quite helpful so thanks guys.
 
They still have you in radar contact (in theory - usually they lose radar contact before radio) even if comm is "lost" so they just continue trying to call you. If they can't get you, they often ask nearby aircraft with whom they have good comm to relay a message to you. I have heard them ask other aircraft to try to raise the lost comm aircraft on other frequencies as well.

Beyond that, they do nothing. You are VFR and you haven't gone missing or anything.

I have never heard of a pilot getting a deviation for lost or missed comm on FF. That's not to say there is no way it could conceivably happen. But I have heard many lost comms during FF, usually due to low altitude, and that is certainly not a deviation.
 
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petrolero said:
I have never heard of a pilot getting a deviation for lost or missed comm on FF. That's not to say there is no way it could conceivably happen. But I have heard many lost comms during FF, usually due to low altitude, and that is certainly not a deviation.
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The story about lost coms and PD could just be a scare tactic to get people to check in and tie up any lose ends, dunno. I think we both know that Denver Center has better things to do than write up PDs.
 
It's not reported as a PD. It can be reported to DEN if certain conditions exist.
 
Monitoring this thread. I generally always use FF outside the pattern.
 
ATC seems to think Warriors and Archers are Cherokees. Get used to it.
 
cowman said:
I was on FF once and they changed my call from "Archer" to "Cherokee"
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Interesting that they continue to call you Cherokee or Archer. Around here, once I establish contact and that I am a Skylane, they just use my numbers. They might as well use Skylane instead of the November they usually start with, it might make it easier to not miss a call and would not waste anymore airtime. Not sure they add the November so often unless it is to catch our attention so we can start listening for the call sign.

Jim
 
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If for some reason you lose contact under flight following it could be you were not handed off at the right time or the controller was too busy and you flew out of range of his/her transmitter. That's happened to me. Just grab your low level IFR chart and look for the nearest center frequency to your location and call them up.
 
I have lost coms many time on FF and twice just last night during a night time IFR flight! I first try the last assigned frequency (which is why I copy them on my knee board), if that does not work I look up either the center frequency on the IFR chart for that sector, or go to the "nearest" page on the 430 (which is what I did before I learned how to read IFR charts) for the closest center frequency. Some times it is right where I need to be, if not they can point me in the right direction of what frequency to try next.

Heck, on time in the middle of nowhere New Mexico, I hailed FSS on 122.5 and they gave me a frequency to try to reestablish contact.
 
coloradobluesky said:
ATC seems to think Warriors and Archers are Cherokees. Get used to it.
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Ok I've heard a couple people mention that there is a difference, but really what is it? I know the early planes had a different wing, and fewer windows, but really aren't they still the same basic design? They are still a PA28.
 
I'm a belt-and-suspenders guy, so when I was ferrying Cherokees from Vero Beach to Seattle I would select airports along my planned route for each day and then sit down with the A/FD and look under Communications for several airports along the way. Sometimes it would be a tower, sometimes it would be a TRACON, most of the time it was Center. Then I had something to fall back on if I lost radio contact. Never happened, but I was prepared (Boy Scout = Be Prepared; Coast Guard = Always Ready). More often than not, a Center controller would say "I'm going to lose you in a few minutes. Wait ten minutes and contact (the next sector/Center) on xxx.xxx."

If you use ForeFlight, or printed charts/publications, there are a ton of different places where frequencies are available.

Bob Gardner
 
coloradobluesky said:
ATC seems to think Warriors and Archers are Cherokees. Get used to it.
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They call everything with "AA5" in the type block a Tiger if they don't call it a Grumman, even though about 40% of AA5's are Travelers or Cheetahs. Back when I had the GA7, Baltimore Tower once called me "Tiger". As I went by on the low approach, I asked them how many engines they saw on my plane. "Uhhh, two," they said. "That makes it a Cougar, not a Tiger". "Oh, thanks. Cougar 5GJ, contact departure." It is what it is, so make sure you're listening up enough that if they call your Archer or Saratoga "Cherokee", you don't miss what might be a time-critical call.

But you could have my job. Over the next two weeks, I'll be flying IFR in four different aircraft. Fortunately, the aircraft owner I'm instructing pretty much always catches the call sign even if I miss a call on the first flight in that plane.
 
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I once had LAS tower call me "Cessna XYZ". I was flying "Comanche XYZ", didn't respond right away, but rather questioned them about it. They got a little "annoyed", but hey, we're not all Cessnas. ;)
 
They would try to get ahold of you over the guard frequency, definitely let the other sector know and would get the supervisor and operations manager involved. They would continue to try to get ahold of you. They don't know if you have radio problems or have it on autopilot and passed out.

I wouldn't just squawk 1200 and keep going on my way. I would try to tell someone. They don't want to get you in trouble. They just want to make sure you are still alive in the cockpit.
 
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cowman said:
I was on FF once and they changed my call from "Archer" to "Cherokee" and I know I missed at least one of their attempts to contact me as I was listening for "Archer" on the radio and I don't remember what I was doing but was distracted at the moment, probably looking up something on a chart.

My question is, if I hadn't ever answered what happens? Maybe my radio had a problem or I didn't hear... or something like that. What will ATC do? Do they call search and rescue?

If I'm flying along and realize that somehow I missed ATC completely and I've got to be way out of the last sector I was talking to, what am I required to do? Am I required to call anyone or do I just squawk 1200 and forget about it?

All assuming I'm not in airspace requiring a clearance.
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If they see you continue on on the radar and fly out of their sector, they aren't going to call SAR. If you fly out of their sector, just call in on the sector freq you can find (if last freq no longer works) and report in. This is not exactly an unusual occurrence and with VFR FF doesn't really effect ATC, I have had them forget about me before and nobody fell out of the sky so I don't assume it to be a big problem. I don't know if it makes a difference to them if you change squawk or not.:dunno:
 
Do you think ATC is going to remember every variation of every GA airplane built? If I have 3 P28A's on my frequency, along with other airplanes, I'm not going to remember one is a Warrior, one is an Archer, and one is a "Cherokee".
 
Jmcmanna said:
Do you think ATC is going to remember every variation of every GA airplane built? If I have 3 P28A's on my frequency, along with other airplanes, I'm not going to remember one is a Warrior, one is an Archer, and one is a "Cherokee".
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Yeah, plus they make mistakes occasionally, I just listen for my tail number.
 
Jmcmanna said:
Do you think ATC is going to remember every variation of every GA airplane built? If I have 3 P28A's on my frequency, along with other airplanes, I'm not going to remember one is a Warrior, one is an Archer, and one is a "Cherokee".
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What he said,

I'll only correct em if it's a different make, ie Cessna vs piper or something
 
Last week on FF it was awfully quiet over north central AR. I get a call from a King Air asking if I can hear Memphis.... no joy. He relayed the next freq and all was good.

It always bothers me when the radio is quite. I like to hear chatter because I know I still have comm.
 
If airspace and performance allows, climbing to a higher altitude may help, especially around terrain.
 
I can see the confusion with the the Pipers since they seem to change name with each variant. I get them confused myself. Arrow vs Archer, etc.

A Cessna 182 is a "Skylane" whether it is fixed gear, RG, or turbo RG. Yes I know there are 182s that were around before the Skylane name.

A 210 is a Centurion in any engine config.

A 177 is a Cardinal even if it is RG.

I guess there is the exception with the old 172 RG being called a Cutlass sometimes.

And even so I often get called "Cessna" or "Skyhawk". Pfft. How many Skyhawks cruise at 170 kts? Certainly not the one I owned (buck oh five on a good day)! :D

But it doesn't matter about the type callout. Half the time they don't even use it. After the initial handshake sequence, they often call me "November six juliet sierra."

So you gotta listen for your numbers, not the type.
 
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Had a situation where I was approaching my destination but couldn't hear ATC due to range issues. I had cell signal the whole time. I wish they would publish phone numbers in the AFD for the control agency, that way I could just make the call through my headset and talk with ATC in the event of being out of range or a lost comm situation.
 
Everskyward said:
This. And they sometimes get the type completely wrong or mix up the numbers. They are human too.
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Several times I have simply been called "November Five Zero Niner Charlie Tango" with no type. Probably because my airplane is not a type they commonly see.
 
isnt there something in writing to use a guide for such situation? If you are in anything but Class G airspace, and talking to ATC, you are in controlled airspace.

AIM 6-4-1
2. VFR conditions. If the failure occurs in VFR conditions, or if VFR conditions are encountered after the failure, each pilot must continue the flight under VFR and land as soon as practicable.


Was on FF for my instrument training, (no flight plan filed) and lost comm's, we were setup for an approach so we finished the approach with a full stop, called up approach on the cell phone and cancelled FF, the controller was very appreciative of the phone call.
 
VanDy said:
isnt there something in writing to use a guide for such situation? If you are in anything but Class G airspace, and talking to ATC, you are in controlled airspace.

AIM 6-4-1
2. VFR conditions. If the failure occurs in VFR conditions, or if VFR conditions are encountered after the failure, each pilot must continue the flight under VFR and land as soon as practicable.

Was on FF for my instrument training, (no flight plan filed) and lost comm[]s, we were set[ ]up for an approach so we finished the approach with a full stop, called up approach on the cell phone and cancelled FF, the controller was very appreciative of the phone call.
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You're quoting the AIM quoting CFR 91.185, which applies to IFR flight, not to VFR with radar advisories. There is certainly no obligation to land soon if you lose comms during VFR fight following.
 
cowman said:
... My question is, if I hadn't ever answered what happens? Maybe my radio had a problem or I didn't hear... or something like that. What will ATC do? Do they call search and rescue? ...
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I don't see that one of the controllers has responded here, but the answer to your question is Yes. If you drop off comms and radar, for example while descending to stay below a ceiling, they will institute missing aircraft procedures. Hence, as several have said, you should try to contact someone to let them know you are alright. A relay, an FSS, a tower, an approach control, Center, ... Not that any of us would have a cell phone on in the airplane, but if that happened to be you, you can call as well. I have ARTCC and tower phone numbers in my phone

For maybe the first half hour the lost aircraft procedures are not too intensive, but if you land at some airport you've not told anyone about and especially if it does not have an FBO or airport manager who can be queried on the telephone, things can start to spin up.
Bill Jennings said:
... if you have Foreflight you can get center enroute frequencies from the IFR low level charts. They are blue text in blue postage stamp boxes., just find the closest box to your position.
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That one made me smile. Actually you don't have to own foreflight to get the frequencies off a low level IFR chart. ;-) Always carry one for your area, paper or electronic; expired is OK as frequencies don't change very often.

Frequencies are also available on the Garmin navigator NRST pages. Sometimes they will not be the right one for your bugsmasher altitude sector but if you are high enough to hit the receiver you will have someone to talk to.
 
Clark1961 said:
So are two flavors of Dakotas...although the "official" identifier is the same as an Arrow - P28B
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Umm. no. An Arrow is a P28R.

P28B includes all the straight legged PA-28's with 200 HP or more: -201T, -235, -236 or in fanciful names Charger, Pathfinder, Dakota.

Back when I was based at IAD and I'd be coming into the class B via the (then) Baltimore Approach after my handoff to IAD I'd get called Navajo regularly. I didn't know why this is until I found out from talking to a controller than frequently in the case of keying in for a squawk code on the VFR class B popups, they'd just use the first letter of the aircraft type. "C" for Cessna, "P" for piper was obious, but "N" didn't register as Navion to some of the controllers. Of course, many of the IAD controllers new 5327K was the only Navion that existed.
 
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To answer the original question, a unexpected disappearance is supposed to be reported. I've had that happened when flying off to Ocean City, MD. Once. Somewhere around SBY I realized I couldn't hear PXT anymore (I always get FF crossing the bay). I transmitted my cancellation in the blind on the last frequency and punched in 1200. By the time I got to OXB, there were airplanes calling me on the unicom relaying from PXT. I've also been asked by ZTL to call people on the ground at SVH when I was passing by to check to see if one of their lost souls made it to his destination.

I've had my phone ring once (I'm listed as the airport manager for NC26) when the FAA came looking for one of our residents.
 
I mostly fly an Archer, and almost exclusively get called by either "cherokee" or simply my tail number. I cant tell a Warrior from an Archer from a Cherokee from the ground, why should I expect someone who may not even fly to be able to tell. It's not even that uncommon to hear "Cessna", and I dont even bother to correct that if the frequency is busy. ATC is mainly concerned with mixing different speeds of aircraft. A 172 and a Cherokee are basically the same exact speed and do all the same things the same way as far as they are concerned, so though they are quite different to us to them they have the same requirements. I dont even think twice about it usually.

Since there are usually several "Cessnas" and a couple "Cherokees" in the local airspace I dont listen for that anyways. I just listen for my tail number.
 
A few days ago somehow my Skylane got converted to a Mooney by ATC...

I swear I wasn't flying inverted.

For some reason ATC has great difficulty with our tail number (735CY). I suspect it is because there are many other similar numbers in the area (many Skylanes and Cirri have similar numbers)

I only get insulted when they mess it up at our home drone (we've been there almost 10 years).

Jeff
 
StinkBug said:
I mostly fly an Archer, and almost exclusively get called by either "cherokee" or simply my tail number. I cant tell a Warrior from an Archer from a Cherokee from the ground, why should I expect someone who may not even fly to be able to tell. It's not even that uncommon to hear "Cessna", and I dont even bother to correct that if the frequency is busy. ATC is mainly concerned with mixing different speeds of aircraft. A 172 and a Cherokee are basically the same exact speed and do all the same things the same way as far as they are concerned, so though they are quite different to us to them they have the same requirements. I dont even think twice about it usually.

Since there are usually several "Cessnas" and a couple "Cherokees" in the local airspace I dont listen for that anyways. I just listen for my tail number.
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And technically piper calls it a "Cherokee Archer" right in the POH so it's not incorrect either.

The reason I use "Archer" instead of "Cherokee" normally is suppose you're at a class D and there's a cherokee 140, a warrior, and an Archer in the pattern. You can either call all of them "Cherokee" or you can have "Cherokee", "Warrior", and "Archer" which should make it more clear who is talking to who(at least in my mind).
 
My home airport is a class D, and that situation is VERY common. They either call em all cherokee or by the tail number only. Come to think of it most of the controllers there dont really use the type that much. They will say "Traffic is a cessna, cherokee, king air, etc." but often they just call you by your tail number.
 
As far as traffic point out, there's not really any point in differentiating between cherokees. They all look the same.

I had a controller at Oshkosh call me a Tomahawk (and they weren't using n numbers). What part of my Navion looks like a tomahawk?
 
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