Lost alternator in IMC

3Y3Flyer

3Y3Flyer

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3Y3Flyer
This is the stuff you read about, and when it actually happens, it is no joke. Myself, wife, and youngest daughter were flying out of Jack Edwards Field, IFR to Jackson ,TN....on our way home to Iowa. We had spent the weekend visiting our oldest daughter at Corey Station Pensacola, FL. She is in a Joint Operations Tech School...Air Force gal.

We hit the ceiling at 1600 AGL and climbed through 060 before we broke out on top....filed a cruise at 080. Had a little wall of southern storms to pick our way through across Alabama, but nothing too severe for this time of year. Then the JPI Engine Monitor started flashing "Volts", in red, I know red is not good! We were down to 11.2....(10.1 on roll out), contacted Mobile approach and declared the "e" word.

They were terrific...cleared the airspace to KMOB, provided vectors to the approach, we even got the fire truck escort to the FBO. IT really was a non-event, due to planning, panel layout (dual G5's and hand held com/nav), and training. It was very busy in the cockpit for a few moments, finding the right diversion airport, loading the procedure, flying, talking, breathing, calming the wife....all those task saturation things we learn about. In the end, all was good...broken spade connector from the alternator. A couple hours later we were on our way.

The take away....don't ever think it won't happen to you....if you fly enough, it will.
 
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Thanks for sharing! Glad everything ended up well for you and fam.
 
3Y3Flyer said:
Found it right where it was supposed to be, but she had determined that she was going to work alone that day and not stay in contact with Mr. Concord....they have a very charged and polarizing relationship. :cool:
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And they say all this "work from home" stuff is allegedly so much more productive...;)
 
3Y3Flyer said:
This is the stuff you read about, and when it actually happens, it is no joke. Myself, wife, and youngest daughter were flying out of Jack Edwards Field, IFR to Jackson ,TN....on our way home to Iowa. We had spent the weekend visiting our oldest daughter at Corey Station Pensacola, FL. She is in a Joint Operations Tech School...Air Force gal.

We hit the ceiling at 1600 AGL and climbed through 060 before we broke out on top....filed a cruise at 080. Had a little wall of southern storms to pick our way through across Alabama, but nothing too severe for this time of year. Then the JPI Engine Monitor started flashing "Volts", in red, I know red is not good! We were down to 11.2....(10.1 on roll out), contacted Mobile approach and declared the "e" word.

They were terrific...cleared the airspace to KMOB, provided vectors to the approach, we even got the fire truck escort to the FBO. IT really was a non-event, due to planning, panel layout (dual G5's and hand held com/nav), and training. It was very busy in the cockpit for a few moments, finding the right diversion airport, loading the procedure, flying, talking, breathing, calming the wife....all those task saturation things we learn about. In the end, all was good...broken spade connector from the alternator. A couple hours later we were on our way.

The take away....don't ever think it won't happen to you....if you fly enough, it will.
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Good job. It started with you not beating around the bush, declaring, tell em what you need and git er done.
 
Sounds like you handled this well. How much load were you able to shed after discovering the loss of the alternator? Did your G5s ever signal loss of power, or did they continue to successfully draw from the aircraft battery?

I like my G5s, but I suspect in an alternator failure scenario, they will add to the load on the battery in an emergency unless I pull their breakers. The GMU-11 and GAD-29B will require the aircraft battery power to work.
 
Great job, it's a good reminder for us all to be vigilant, thanks for sharing. I'm trying to push through my instrument now and I'm glad to have the battery backup on the Dynon.
 
chemgeek said:
Sounds like you handled this well. How much load were you able to shed after discovering the loss of the alternator? Did your G5s ever signal loss of power, or did they continue to successfully draw from the aircraft battery?

I like my G5s, but I suspect in an alternator failure scenario, they will add to the load on the battery in an emergency unless I pull their breakers. The GMU-11 and GAD-29B will require the aircraft battery power to work.
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Great question....As soon as I discovered the issue, I shut down the com 2 radio (old Narco) and pulled the power cables for my Ipad, Garmin 760, and GDL 52. That left the G5's, 430W, Audio panel, NGT9000, GMU and GAD, and the JPI 730 still drawing power. My plan was to fly those until they dropped. Knowing the G5's would continue operation in track mode I wasn't too worried as I was being vectored and the ceiling wasn't real low. I had a sporty's nav/com portable spun up and ready to take over if I lost the 430, and the approach that I was on had an ILS to that runway as well as RNAV, so the bases were covered. Fortunately I was able to break out and make the field prior to having to run the approach, and was cleared for the visual. The whole thing lasted about 15 mins, so I am not sure if shutting those items off early helped in the long run or not, all I knew at the time was they were drawing power and I did not need them to. I never lost the 430 or had a power fail on the G5's...on roll out the JPI was reading 10.1 and 9.8 when I shut down.
 
3Y3Flyer said:
we even got the fire truck escort to the FBO
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Did you jump out and thank the guys in the truck.??

On the few emergencies I have had, I made it a practice to meet the folks that come out and let them know I really appreciate them being here in case I really screw up the landing.
 
Zeldman said:
Did you jump out and thank the guys in the truck.??

On the few emergencies I have had, I made it a practice to meet the folks that come out and let them know I really appreciate them being here in case I really screw up the landing.
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Oh yes, I thanked them all...they were all great to work with.
 
3Y3Flyer said:
Great question....As soon as I discovered the issue, I shut down the com 2 radio (old Narco) and pulled the power cables for my Ipad, Garmin 760, and GDL 52. That left the G5's, 430W, Audio panel, NGT9000, GMU and GAD, and the JPI 730 still drawing power. My plan was to fly those until they dropped. Knowing the G5's would continue operation in track mode I wasn't too worried as I was being vectored and the ceiling wasn't real low. I had a sporty's nav/com portable spun up and ready to take over if I lost the 430, and the approach that I was on had an ILS to that runway as well as RNAV, so the bases were covered. Fortunately I was able to break out and make the field prior to having to run the approach, and was cleared for the visual. The whole thing lasted about 15 mins, so I am not sure if shutting those items off early helped in the long run or not, all I knew at the time was they were drawing power and I did not need them to. I never lost the 430 or had a power fail on the G5's...on roll out the JPI was reading 10.1 and 9.8 when I shut down.
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Sounds like you were really heads up after the charging loss. Well done! It's nice to know that the G5s will carry on even when the aircraft battery crumps. And a portable com is a good idea to have on hand just in case.
 
3Y3Flyer said:
Great question....As soon as I discovered the issue, I shut down the com 2 radio (old Narco) and pulled the power cables for my Ipad, Garmin 760, and GDL 52. That left the G5's, 430W, Audio panel, NGT9000, GMU and GAD, and the JPI 730 still drawing power. My plan was to fly those until they dropped. Knowing the G5's would continue operation in track mode I wasn't too worried as I was being vectored and the ceiling wasn't real low. I had a sporty's nav/com portable spun up and ready to take over if I lost the 430, and the approach that I was on had an ILS to that runway as well as RNAV, so the bases were covered. Fortunately I was able to break out and make the field prior to having to run the approach, and was cleared for the visual. The whole thing lasted about 15 mins, so I am not sure if shutting those items off early helped in the long run or not, all I knew at the time was they were drawing power and I did not need them to. I never lost the 430 or had a power fail on the G5's...on roll out the JPI was reading 10.1 and 9.8 when I shut down.
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Shutting off unnecessary equipment helps. Whether it would have made a difference or not, I’m glad you didn’t have to find out. ;)

FYI, I think the 430 will operate down to about 6volts...a lot longer than some of the other equipment as the battery dies.
 
MauleSkinner said:
Shutting off unnecessary equipment helps. Whether it would have made a difference or not, I’m glad you didn’t have to find out. ;)

FYI, I think the 430 will operate down to about 6volts...a lot longer than some of the other equipment as the battery dies.
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In hot washing the event, I have been looking for that “minimum operating voltage” for the 430 for future reference. Haven’t found an official source on it yet...so I’m gonna quote you in the POH! ;) In listening to Live ATC, it becomes apparent that my radio transmissions become weaker towards the end of the event when on roll out and taxi. I have to admit once I was on the ground I didn’t monitor the voltage much I was busy talking my wife off the cliff!
 
3Y3Flyer said:
In hot washing the event, I have been looking for that “minimum operating voltage” for the 430 for future reference. Haven’t found an official source on it yet...so I’m gonna quote you in the POH! ;) In listening to Live ATC, it becomes apparent that my radio transmissions become weaker towards the end of the event when on roll out and taxi. I have to admit once I was on the ground I didn’t monitor the voltage much I was busy talking my wife off the cliff!
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I think the installation manual is where you’ll find the number.
 
I remember losing an alternator- weather sucked but it was marginal VFR.

Ever since, I carry a 696 AND an area 560 just in case, and two battery radios.

The 172 has vacuum and backup electric.

The mooney does as well.

I also carry an iPad with ForeFlight and spare USB bricks.

I’ve lost an engine in flight.

I’ve lost a vacuum pump in IMC.

I’ve had stuck a stuck mic.

The lighting in my panel has gone out during IMC.

I guess the more hours you put in, the older our airplanes, the more things creep up.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
The rental Cardinal lost the alternator in VFR conditions at night over the middle of Lake Erie. I could have declared and gone to Detroit City.
I shut everything down to save the battery to have power for putting gear down without using the emergency procedure. Navigated by aiming at the bright spot across the black water that was Detroit and then 'I follow roads'. Everything beautifully lit on the ground. A passenger was watching for crossing traffic aft of us that I could not see while watching ahead. If one was called out I would have lit the beacon and nav lights. The sky was empty at 1:30 AM on a cold winter night.
I unfolded the chart and put it on my knee board, but never needed it. I named the major roads as we followed them and pointed out the airport beacons by name as we hummed along to Saginaw. The third person slept through the whole thing.
My decision as PIC was based on experience and the benign conditions and knowing the major highways and towns without needing a map. If another pilot had declared and landed I would support that decision.
 
I've had three alternator failures in my plane.
  1. The first was the most interesting. I LITERALLY lost the alternator. It's belt driven at the rear of the engine. A bolt broke and the alternator rotated. The alternator belt, somehow, kept spinning around and gouged a fuel line!!! Yikes. When I got the VOLTS warning and the red light on the ammeter, I was on short final to the runway so it wasn't a biggie, but when I saw the alternator hanging and saw the marks on the fuel line, I was happy that I didn't need to fly far.
  2. The second was routine. Climbing out of some small airport in Kentucky after the solar eclipse the JPI EDM830 flashed VOLTS and the red light came on. I told ATC, who were very busy with all of the traffic, and diverted to Paducah. Cranked the gear down, just in case, and landed. They fixed the broken field wire.
  3. Third kinda sucked. I was flying relief flights after a hurricane and the light came on in IMC. I declared, landed at RDU and they diagnosed a broken alternator (not the wire this time). No chance at a same day delivery so I was stuck in RDU for a night. Instead of flying relief supplies, I loaded them on other people's airplanes! Still got to help and flew one flight.
None of those compare to when the MASTER SWITCH failed in flight. Everything just went black rather quickly.... in IMC....
 
John King has a story about shutting things down and hoping to have enough battery at the destination. Didn't work out well for him.

Fortunately, the only thing the electrics do for Navion gear/flaps is power the green lights.
 
MauleSkinner said:
FYI, I think the 430 will operate down to about 6volts...a lot longer than some of the other equipment as the battery dies.
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But many of theose things use more and more amperage to run as the voltage drops. Their power supplies are designed to create 14 volts at a given amperage, and when the supply voltage falls they need more amps to make the same wattage. Your battery dies even faster.
 
Dan Thomas said:
But many of theose things use more and more amperage to run as the voltage drops. Their power supplies are designed to create 14 volts at a given amperage, and when the supply voltage falls they need more amps to make the same wattage. Your battery dies even faster.
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But having a voltage indication as well as the minimum voltage knowledge will still help you decide whether you can fly to an airport Instead of needing to spin down through the clouds.
 
This is typical of the alternator recommendations found in every Cessna manual:

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There it is. The alternator's electrical harness inspection is a 50-hour item. We wouldn't be losing alternators to broken field wires if they were being looked at at least yearly. I have fixed countless field wires that were just barely hanging on. The brush inspecion is a 500-hour item, and most never get anything until the brushes wear to the point they fall out of their holders and the springs ruin the slip rings, meaning that the alternator is ruined. A 500-hour inspection precludes that and saves money and the grief of lost electrical in IMC. I have found cracked mounting brackets, too. And cracking or delaminating drive belts.

Why do people run these things to failure? Vacuum pumps too, and magnetos. I don't get it. Why bother with an annual inspection at all?
 

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I've got something like 500-600 hours of flying experience... would have to go add it up. I've had 3 in flight alternator failures and really 5 if you count the test flights for 2 of the other failures that I was sent defective replacements for. I've also had a vacuum pump go in flight. This is across two different airplanes. Fortunately every one of these events occurred under day VFR conditions making them non-events. In IMC or at night, it would be time to declare and get on the ground.

In the case of every failure I've had, inspection of wiring or brushes wouldn't have helped. Wiring in all cases was fine, brushes in all cases had some wear but were not worn out. For me it's been the field windings or in 2 different cases on 2 different airplanes newly installed remanufactured alternators that were simply assembled incorrectly from the factory in a way that wasn't obvious until a test flight revealed the issue. These were all Chrysler 60-amp alternators.

I wish I'd done this in hindsight but next time it happens I'm going to convert over to a plane power unit. Had enough of these "aviation grade" parts that cost 10x what they do in an auto parts store and are arguably less reliable.

Also a tip for anyone doing a test flight after alternator replacement- go do some steep turns. That's what shook loose the not so obvious issues with my replacement units both times.
 
cowman said:
I've got something like 500-600 hours of flying experience... would have to go add it up. I've had 3 in flight alternator failures and really 5 if you count the test flights for 2 of the other failures that I was sent defective replacements for. I've also had a vacuum pump go in flight. This is across two different airplanes. Fortunately every one of these events occurred under day VFR conditions making them non-events. In IMC or at night, it would be time to declare and get on the ground.

In the case of every failure I've had, inspection of wiring or brushes wouldn't have helped. Wiring in all cases was fine, brushes in all cases had some wear but were not worn out. For me it's been the field windings or in 2 different cases on 2 different airplanes newly installed remanufactured alternators that were simply assembled incorrectly from the factory in a way that wasn't obvious until a test flight revealed the issue. These were all Chrysler 60-amp alternators.

I wish I'd done this in hindsight but next time it happens I'm going to convert over to a plane power unit. Had enough of these "aviation grade" parts that cost 10x what they do in an auto parts store and are arguably less reliable.

Also a tip for anyone doing a test flight after alternator replacement- go do some steep turns. That's what shook loose the not so obvious issues with my replacement units both times.
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Remanufactured alternators frequently have far too much grease in the rear bearing, and it gets squeezed out when the shaft goes into it, and the grease contaminates the slip rings and brushes and fails the alternator. I filed numerous SDRs on this for over 15 years. Kelly, then Hartzell, simply can't get it right, as with some local shops. The FAA-certified Electrosystems manual on these things talks about it, so it's not as if the info isn't out there, and you're supposed to have access to that manual if you open one up.

Plane Power is simply another automotive alternator certifed for aircraft use. It has absolutely no magic and is no more sophisticated or reliable than the usual Motorcraft or Motorola alternators. And it has brushes that will wear out in a thousand or 1200 hours, too, or less if it's supplying a glass panel system. They use plenty of electricity.

I looked after a flight school fleet and never had an alternator or mag failure in many thousands of hours. Did have a few "new and improved" voltage regulators pack up, though. The modern elecronic ones that blew out after 20 hours. They replaced the eletromechanical ones that had 10,000 hours on them. They everntually figured their problem out. I also bought and installed vacuum pumps that had vane wear inspection ports and never had a vac pump failure. I did 500-hour mag inspections, never had one fail in flight.
 
You know as well as I do what these answers are.

Dan Thomas said:
Why do people run these things to failure? Vacuum pumps too, and magnetos.
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Because they're cheap.

Dan Thomas said:
Why bother with an annual inspection at all?
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Because the FAA makes them. Literally no other reason.

And to think some folks want to loosen the annual requirements for owner-flown planes. Imagine the contraptions we'll all be sharing the pattern with.
 
I never lost one myself. Did, however got a request from KCSG approach to launch my UH-1 (low IFR) and intercept an aircraft flying a triangle pattern 30 mi west. How long has that procedure been dropped from AIM? On top at 4,000 and with only one heading change from Approach, we spotted him. A PA-28. Gave "follow me" hand signals to the pilot and got vectors to the KCSG ILS. The flying club had a PA-28 that I flew often. It helped knowing the bird. Approach and landing was no sweat.
I chatted with the pilot (who was a Captain in military uniform, with a star on his Aviator wings) and he told me that the Alt. had quit on him. The controller that scrambled us was really good. I knew him and he was a retired USAF fighter pilot.
 
Another thing about loss of alternator in flight. Don't rely too much on your "whiskey" compass. Compasses are swung with every thing on, especially the alternator. Just asking, do you know how much your compass is in error with alternator off? I learned real early that a nose mounted landing light will pull the compass ten degrees, Heated pitot will also pull it ten degrees. Ever try turning the alternator off in flight. Big error. Bad when you dead reckon without nav aids. I recall a pilot that tried to fly 35 NM home in 5 mile vis with a dead generator. It pulled his compass enough that he flew past his destination and got lost. He found a place to land and slept in his A/C. Also the boost pumps went away and the FM for his A/C states that w/o pumps, subtract 45 minutes from his fuel endurance.
 
Interesting responses. Will give me something to think about as I plan my RV-6 panel.
 
I had the same thing happen two years ago taking off from Jack Edwards. Saratoga threw the a/c-alt belt on take off. I saw the landing light flicker, knew exactly what happened. Aborted t/o. Spent night at JKA, had FBO charge battery, flew back next day VMC. still lost radios, but was prepared with handheld radio and gps. Mechanic had to re-engineer alternator install (brackets) but it hasn’t done it again... Yes! ATC are real pro’s, mostly... most recent trip to Clarksville,TN area though revealed some real tyros/neophytes.
 
To me the scenario that worries me is- alternator failure in/above solid IMC. VFR at destination 2 h away. I have Aspen pfd, surefly. Carry backup handheld and iPad with battery pack. Do you try to shoot an IFR approach with questionable life on your nav radios and gps and Aspen, or turn everything off, continue vfr on top for 2 h and hope to land vfr nordo at destination?
 
Tokirbymd said:
To me the scenario that worries me is- alternator failure in/above solid IMC. VFR at destination 2 h away. I have Aspen pfd, surefly. Carry backup handheld and iPad with battery pack. Do you try to shoot an IFR approach with questionable life on your nav radios and gps and Aspen, or turn everything off, continue vfr on top for 2 h and hope to land vfr nordo at destination?
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I’d go for the VMC.
 
Tokirbymd said:
To me the scenario that worries me is- alternator failure in/above solid IMC. VFR at destination 2 h away. I have Aspen pfd, surefly. Carry backup handheld and iPad with battery pack. Do you try to shoot an IFR approach with questionable life on your nav radios and gps and Aspen, or turn everything off, continue vfr on top for 2 h and hope to land vfr nordo at destination?
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If there are VMC conditions immediately available go for that with ATC help while you have electrical power. Loss of electrics is an emergency, not something you should drone on for 2 more hours in the hopes of something better. Weather can change. Find an immediate option. If you get to VMC, land while the landing is good. If your plane is properly maintained and you load shed, your battery should go 30-45 minutes. Should be enough time to make an approach somewhere close or find VMC. My G5s will go for up to 4 hours, so that aspect of flight control is covered.
 
Tokirbymd said:
To me the scenario that worries me is- alternator failure in/above solid IMC. VFR at destination 2 h away. I have Aspen pfd, surefly. Carry backup handheld and iPad with battery pack. Do you try to shoot an IFR approach with questionable life on your nav radios and gps and Aspen, or turn everything off, continue vfr on top for 2 h and hope to land vfr nordo at destination?
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Gambling on VMC is a pretty big gamble 2 hours away...as you lose equipment over time, you lose options...and fly yourself into only handling one condition, clear skies and NORDO. Keep in mind, VFR does not mean clear skies, it means 3000' and 5. In your question, you answer it...I would much rather "try" something, than "hope" for something.
 
Fortunately, when I have had alternator failures, I was in VFR conditions, and I opted to remain so (in addition to load-shedding).
 
I'm a new pilot (less than 2 years and just over 200 hours) so if I’m way off on this let me know. I think if I had G5s I would first declare an emergency and pull all the breakers except one com radio. Let the G5s run on their backup battery and ask for vectors to nearest airport with an approach (if its IMC). Just before the final approach fix reset the breaker for either nav com or GPS depending on the system used. If you did this early enough you would still have the voltage you need to get in.
 
AlphaMike said:
I'm a new pilot (less than 2 years and just over 200 hours) so if I’m way off on this let me know. I think if I had G5s I would first declare an emergency and pull all the breakers except one com radio. Let the G5s run on their backup battery and ask for vectors to nearest airport with an approach (if its IMC). Just before the final approach fix reset the breaker for either nav com or GPS depending on the system used. If you did this early enough you would still have the voltage you need to get in.
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Don't forget to turn the ALT switch off, too. The failure might be a broken belt or shorted diode, and the field will still be maxing out and eating up a few amps.
 
Maxnr said:
Another thing about loss of alternator in flight. Don't rely too much on your "whiskey" compass. Compasses are swung with every thing on, especially the alternator. Just asking, do you know how much your compass is in error with alternator off? I learned real early that a nose mounted landing light will pull the compass ten degrees, Heated pitot will also pull it ten degrees. Ever try turning the alternator off in flight. Big error. Bad when you dead reckon without nav aids. I recall a pilot that tried to fly 35 NM home in 5 mile vis with a dead generator. It pulled his compass enough that he flew past his destination and got lost. He found a place to land and slept in his A/C. Also the boost pumps went away and the FM for his A/C states that w/o pumps, subtract 45 minutes from his fuel endurance.
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It all depends on the model of aircraft. I have found some that had almost no change with alternator on or off. Others had a big change. The 180 and 185 are bad ones; they run the alternator output cable across the top of the firewall over to the right side from the alternator's location on the left, and that cable is only a few inches from the compass. When more stuff is turned on the cable is carrying more current, making a larger field that can mess things up.
 
AlphaMike said:
I'm a new pilot (less than 2 years and just over 200 hours) so if I’m way off on this let me know. I think if I had G5s I would first declare an emergency and pull all the breakers except one com radio. Let the G5s run on their backup battery and ask for vectors to nearest airport with an approach (if its IMC). Just before the final approach fix reset the breaker for either nav com or GPS depending on the system used. If you did this early enough you would still have the voltage you need to get in.
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Good idea, but the our Cherokee has fuses not breakers that pull out manually...it’s the one thing I don’t like about the planes design. It’s an all or nothing when you kill the avionics master. I’m sure a guy could change that with the proper amount of fun tickets paid to the local A&P.
 
3Y3Flyer said:
Good idea, but the our Cherokee has fuses not breakers that pull out manually...it’s the one thing I don’t like about the planes design. It’s an all or nothing when you kill the avionics master. I’m sure a guy could change that with the proper amount of fun tickets paid to the local A&P.
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Not a very big expense. About 25 a pop plus a couple of hours labor. Those fuses drove me nuts, but they were of big help during the PPL ride since the DPE couldn’t pull one
 
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