Looking for FAA written help - VOR

Which is why so many people think the written test is a waste of time...people intentionally remove or add context to make the questions irrelevant.

And who is doing that?

You are the one removing context by asserting that the FAA is being sneaky and deliberately hiding information—rather simply showing an indicator with a blank flag.

This test guide tells you how to answer the question right here, exactly the same way as I described before. Without the information about the blank flag, the aircraft could be Northeast, East, Southeast, South, or even slightly West of South. You cannot correctly answer the question your way as there are two choices that would be correct.


vor test guide question.jpg
 
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Just about every time I fly over a vor for a hold or such, the CDI starts to swing back and forth, then the flag goes off for a few up to 10 seconds, then the flag switches and everything starts to stabilize. I think this question is BS because if I switched to the vor while over the vor, in the cone of confusion, I would have no idea which radial I was on.
 
Either way, an OFF flag or blank TO/FROM indicates an unusable signal, not that you're abeam the course.

It does not. Go read through my example of standing a mile east of the VOR with a handheld.

The signal there is absolutely fine and plenty useable. Nothing wrong with the signal at all.

You won’t get a TO/FROM abeam the station on a 90 from the radial selected. Whether you’re a mile away or 50.

If you have a radio with a digital flag representation, the flag will flutter between the two maybe. Older analog CDI, it’ll be solidly in between, whether that shows “OFF” a cross-hatch, or black.

They all act a little different on the indicator, but directly on that line they can’t determine if the phase angle is ahead or behind. Because, physics. Signal strength is great, it just has no phase difference to measure.
 
It does not. Go read through my example of standing a mile east of the VOR with a handheld.

The signal there is absolutely fine and plenty useable. Nothing wrong with the signal at all.

You won’t get a TO/FROM abeam the station on a 90 from the radial selected. Whether you’re a mile away or 50.

If you have a radio with a digital flag representation, the flag will flutter between the two maybe. Older analog CDI, it’ll be solidly in between, whether that shows “OFF” a cross-hatch, or black.

They all act a little different on the indicator, but directly on that line they can’t determine if the phase angle is ahead or behind. Because, physics. Signal strength is great, it just has no phase difference to measure.

Yes, but that's the difference between real life and test questions. In real life you know you are approaching the flag flip and expect then see the momentary flag or lack to To/From or hesitation as the unit tries to decide. Then it comes back.

OTOH, on the test, you are presented with the rough equivalent of flying along unconscious, waking to find the VOR showing an off course indication and no flag, and being knocked unconscious again after less than a second has passed. Then, when you wake up, you have to say where you were during that brief moment of consciousness.
 
And who is doing that?

You are the one removing context by asserting that the FAA is being sneaky and deliberately hiding information—rather simply showing an indicator with a blank flag.

This test guide tells you how to answer the question right here, exactly the same way as I described before. Without the information about the blank flag, the aircraft could be Northeast, East, Southeast, South, or even slightly West of South. You cannot correctly answer the question your way as there are two choices that would be correct.


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What if it was reverse sensing? :D
 
Yes, but that's the difference between real life and test questions. In real life you know you are approaching the flag flip and expect then see the momentary flag or lack to To/From or hesitation as the unit tries to decide. Then it comes back.

OTOH, on the test, you are presented with the rough equivalent of flying along unconscious, waking to find the VOR showing an off course indication and no flag, and being knocked unconscious again after less than a second has passed. Then, when you wake up, you have to say where you were during that brief moment of consciousness.

I was just explaining for those working on the rating what the real world radios do.

Doesn’t change the answer on this particular question whether you “saw it coming” in the airplane or “woke up” and saw it on the test question presented, though.

No TO/FROM, you’re perfectly abeam of the station on the 90 degree mark of whatever course you have selected.

“OFF” would be a different story. Then you’d better be turning up the volume on the nav radio in the real world and seeing if the thing went Tango Uniform.

If you have no “OFF” flag and just the in-between state, technically the question asked is crap. If you “woke up” and saw that, your first move would be to make sure the stupid thing is receiving anything at all, since quite a few OBS heads don’t “park” the needle out of sight when there’s no input signal at all.

Good ones do. That needle would be buried behind the barrier and you wouldn’t even be able to see it in the FAA’s theoretical question on most modern OBS indicators. That’s the real problem with that question, as posed. You wouldn’t have a missing TO/FROM and a needle still in view at all, on a good quality OBS head.

There are other VOR questions in the pool that are sneakier, but this one is pretty straightforward. Even if it’s crap, compared to a real modern OBS’ behavior.

What I’m curious about though is whether FAA is clear about the TO/FROM flip in their supporting textbooks. I haven’t gone looking yet to see if they base the question off of something they say in the Instrument Flying Handbook. It SHOULD be there or the question is seriously crappy.

It’s hard for people who don’t “get” analog radio or grew up with all digital toys to understand that this radio and OBS are just a simple phase comparison circuit and not all that damned smart about their actual location.

I know you like to geek out, and anyone interested can also follow along if they have about a half hour to see how a VOR actually works...


(Bonus: Toward the end you learn exactly why an in-flight VOR check is only good if it’s within 6 degrees. There’s actually a solid electronics and RF engineering reason for it. Multipath!)

And ...

I’m going to smack you when I see you for that “reverse sensing” wisecrack. You know there’s no such thing on a VOR, just an OBS that’s set wrong for the direction the aircraft is traveling.

Save that silly “reverse sensing” garbage terminology all of us poor instructors have to use it (of which there’s technically no such thing, it’s “sensing” just fine, you’re just headed the wrong direction and think the indications look backward to you...) for the discussion about relative location to a Localizer signal, which is a completely different beast.

Anyway. Enjoy the video. Some pretty cool RF engineering problems and solutions (for their day) in a VOR station.
 
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I've used that a number of times but from what I've seen, it doesn't ever simulate being in the cone of confusion ie it always wants the reading to be accurate.
Right. This is the point that I was missing. Somehow I had it in my head that the absence of the TO/FROM was an indication of being in the cone and given what I initially wrote "I thought the VOR was totally unreliable when the to/from was missing.", I came to a brick wall with the questions. But I'm confident with things now that I've separated the two concepts ie cone and missing TO/FROM are not the same. Again, thanks everyone.

-mick

Then you do not understand the zone, because it is clearly marked on that simulator.
 
Then you do not understand the zone, because it is clearly marked on that simulator.
I think its more the case that I didn't understand the simulator. So there are three versions of VOR simulator at that site and I've been using version 3 and saw no description for the zone area / behavior. In poking around some more tonight I found a reference to how the cone area displays - but this was under the description of "vertical display" and only on the page of version 1. It indicated that the VOR display will show a red "NAV" indication when in the zone. So going back to version 3, if I set the vertical display altitude pretty high I can now easily position the plane over the VOR so that the VOR display will report the red "NAV" indicator. So bottom line, all is good - thanks.
 
Which is why so many people think the written test is a waste of time...people intentionally remove or add context to make the questions irrelevant.
And who is doing that?
It seems pretty irrelevant to me that anyone would set their OBS to 030 to determine that they're on the 120 radial.

But to each his own, I guess.
 
I think its more the case that I didn't understand the simulator. So there are three versions of VOR simulator at that site and I've been using version 3 and saw no description for the zone area / behavior. In poking around some more tonight I found a reference to how the cone area displays - but this was under the description of "vertical display" and only on the page of version 1. It indicated that the VOR display will show a red "NAV" indication when in the zone. So going back to version 3, if I set the vertical display altitude pretty high I can now easily position the plane over the VOR so that the VOR display will report the red "NAV" indicator. So bottom line, all is good - thanks.

You sure like to complicate things. Open the link I provided. Stay on Version 3. The diagram to the left of the instruments shows the set up including the zone. It is the area between the to and from zones (at the end of the aircraft heading arrow) in the diagram below.

upload_2018-7-28_9-14-6.png
 
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The diagram to the left of the instruments shows the set up including the zone. It is the area between the to and from zones (at the end of the aircraft heading arrow) in the diagram below.
That's incorrect and pretty much is the issue that started this thread. You are describing the area in which the VOR receiver will report perpendicular/abeam of the VOR transmitter and this is indicated by a stable VOR needle and absence of the TO/FROM indicators. The cone/zone is the area directly above the VOR transmitter. This is the area where the VOR indications will be unstable. The cone/zone in this app is shown as the area around the red dot inside the VOR symbol. First pic is what I found in the documentation and the 2nd is a screen shot of my plane which I've placed into the cone/zone and have the VOR instrument confirming with the NAV icon.

To go back to what my initial problem with this app was, I had not found the description of what the VOR instrument would display when confirming the plane was in the cone (NAV icon) and at low altitudes, its nearly impossible to place the plane into the cone area.
 

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It seems pretty irrelevant to me that anyone would set their OBS to 030 to determine that they're on the 120 radial.
But to each his own, I guess.
Well, Mick said he flies helicopters. They have to train to fly sideways along radials, and hover directly over VOR's, and other weird stuff! :) :)
 
Well, Mick said he flies helicopters. They have to train to fly sideways along radials, and hover directly over VOR's, and other weird stuff! :) :)
Too funny. Being a student, my CFI would confirm that I do enough "weird stuff" without the need for the VOR :)
 
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That's incorrect and pretty much is the issue that started this thread. You are describing the area in which the VOR receiver will report perpendicular/abeam of the VOR transmitter and this is indicated by a stable VOR needle and absence of the TO/FROM indicators. The cone/zone is the area directly above the VOR transmitter. This is the area where the VOR indications will be unstable. The cone/zone in this app is shown as the area around the red dot inside the VOR symbol. First pic is what I found in the documentation and the 2nd is a screen shot of my plane which I've placed into the cone/zone and have the VOR instrument confirming with the NAV icon.

To go back to what my initial problem with this app was, I had not found the description of what the VOR instrument would display when confirming the plane was in the cone (NAV icon) and at low altitudes, its nearly impossible to place the plane into the cone area.

Just take the simulator and put the plane over the VOR -duh.
 
Just take the simulator and put the plane over the VOR -duh.
That's the problem. The majority of the time you will still see it reporting out of the cone ie a TO/FROM or no TO/FROM. Getting it to report "NAV" takes some finessing. And the only way I've found to make it happen is to set the altitude high so the cone size is the largest.
 
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Huh!!! Helicopter?? I thought you was talkin about real airplane stuff. I take everything back. :D Let us know how ya did. I thinks ya gots a chance for a 100. good luck
Well I ended up with a 92% score. Was able to review what I got wrong. Had one brain fart, one BS question, one question I was totally clueless on plus a couple of questions simply not strong on. So I figure my personal max I should have gotten was 95%. But hey, I nailed the VOR questions ;-) So thanks to all again!

-mick
 
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