Looking for advice on a first plane

A RV6 would better fit your needs. You can find IFR steam gauge 6 or 6A in your price range. 200mph on 10 gph with good useful load. You could transition into an A in just a few hours and if you find a good 6 they are very docile tailwheel airplanes. The advantage to experimental is you can upgrade avionics for less than 1/3 of certified. Plus they are aerobatic if you decide that might be something you want to try. Don
 
I have revised my original post to reflect some more realistic expectations based on responses in this thread so far, I really appreciate all the input up to now.

So far, it's looking like I want an RV or an M20. the RV has the advantage of faster and lighter, the M20 can haul more stuff. Still need to research some of the other options mentioned.
 
A guy on Mooneyspace is selling a M20J 205 and it looks really good - and he just dropped the price. Is your budget really a hard number? This is way over it, but looks really good.

http://www.205kd.com/


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gsengle said:
A guy on Mooneyspace is selling a M20J 205 and it looks really good - and he just dropped the price. Is your budget really a hard number? This is way over it, but looks really good.

http://www.205kd.com/


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There might be a little room for wiggle on the budget, depending on what kind of loan terms I can get, but my income won't support a loan for $100k.
 
ShuRugal said:
There might be a little room for wiggle on the budget, depending on what kind of loan terms I can get, but my income won't support a loan for $100k.
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Ever consider a partner? I know they can be hard to find, but airplanes need to be flown and I've often wished I had a 50/50 partner. I'm sure you've thought of this but just a random thought.


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gsengle said:
Ever consider a partner? I know they can be hard to find, but airplanes need to be flown and I've often wished I had a 50/50 partner. I'm sure you've thought of this but just a random thought.
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If I run into someone in my neck of the woods who I feel I can trust on such a venture, then I am certainly open to the idea.
 
ShuRugal said:
...Bit of background: I've just recently obtained my Sport certificate. I plan to go on to full Private Pilot and beyond, in fact I only need to wipe out a couple hours of night-training and hood-work to meet requirements for PP practical. Probably get that done in the next couple months, and look at buying something around January, after taxes come back...
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Hmmm...I'm no expert, but I have been flying (and owning planes) for 25 or so years...
Excuse the pun, but you seem to be rushing for speed. Going faster means things happen faster, which is not something I wanted to have happen when I was a new pilot (and I was a crazy 25 years old when I was a new pilot, racing motorcycles on the side). Just asking: what's the rush? Insurance will be much more expensive on faster planes when you have low hours, and building time will actually come slower (since you get places faster).
I've owned a few planes over the years, with the fastest cruising at about 160 knots, and the slowest at about 75 knots...can you guess which was my favorite?
I'm not trying to sound critical, and maybe you have a good reason for needing or wanting speed...just pointing out that there are downsides to going faster.
 
So...what is your monthly flying budget? That's going to determine lots of things.

It's not the price of admission that will drive this.....it's operating costs....like annuals and regular maintenance.
ShuRugal said:
Bit of both, really. Part of what I intend to accomplish asking these questions is find out if my expectations are realistic, or if i need to modify my thinking.

Based on the specs of the RV-4, i feel like my performance expectations are not impossible, but may perhaps require more budget than I have at this time to accommodate. I am prepared to be flexible.
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Checkout_my_Six said:
So...what is your monthly flying budget? That's going to determine lots of things.
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I've been spending ~$1k/mo while working on my certs. I am happy to maintain that level of spending, and look forward to when the loan is payed off and that number can either fall, or be shifted to AC improvements or additional flying time.
 
ShuRugal said:
I've been spending ~$1k/mo while working on my certs. I am happy to maintain that level of spending, and look forward to when the loan is payed off and that number can either fall, or be shifted to AC improvements or additional flying time.
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So....what's that going to go towards?

Insurance? ~$700-2,000/yr
Tie down/hangar?
gas? depends on usage
oil? will you do maintenance or are you paying?
maintenance?
annual inspections? ~$1,000-2,500/yr plus repairs
data cards?

debt?
flight instruction?

add it up....and you'll see the differences between the average C-172's vs a high perf plane.
 
Checkout_my_Six said:
So....what's that going to go towards?

Insurance? ~$700-2,000/yr
Tie down/hangar?
gas? depends on usage
oil? will you do maintenance or are you paying?
maintenance?
annual inspections? ~$1,000-2,500/yr plus repairs
data cards?
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This is also a picture I am trying to build.

I've got a rough ballpark idea of what to expect in terms of insurance and hangar/tie-down fees. Any maintenance which does not require an A&P cert I am more than capable of performing myself, and my grandmother has a couple friends who have their A&P, so I can probably get something worked out to keep those costs towards the lower end of the scale. I figure that after static overhead (insurance, hangar, annual) and gas, I aught to be able to put ~$500/mo towards loan repayment. By Jan I should have enough saved up for a 15k down-payment, which means i can afford up to $45k worth of plane on a 5-year loan, as of my current picture, depending on how the APR breaks out.
 
IMHO....I'd start out simple....and learn how to own. It sounds kinda corny, but you will learn stuff about ownership. You don't want to be making expensive mistakes on a high perf plane.

A good first plane is any of the Piper Cherokees or smaller Cessnas (172 types). Once you get into fuel injection and constant speed props things get more complicated and take more shop time to fix.

I started with a C-150....and that's a good first aircraft too. Start a spreadsheet and begin to build a budget from there.

There are many aircraft I could purchase....but not afford to "own". Maintenance is expensive....especially the rip-off artist at Signature aircraft.
 
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Checkout_my_Six said:
IMHO....I'd start out simple....and learn how to own. It sounds kinda corny, but you will learn stuff about ownership. You don't want to be making expensive mistakes on a high perf plane.

A good first plane is any of the Piper Cherokees or smaller Cessnas (172 types). Once you get into fuel injection and constant speed props things get more complicated and take more shop time to fix.

I started with a C-150....and that's a good first aircraft too. Start a spreadsheet and begin to build a budget from there.

There are many aircraft I could purchase....but not afford to "own".
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That's good advice. I started with an Arrow and as complex airplanes go it was pretty simple - probably the most id have wanted to bite off with my first plane. The owning learning curve is in many ways as steep as the piloting one....


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Checkout_my_Six said:
IMHO....I'd start out simple....and learn how to own. It sounds kinda corny, but you will learn stuff about ownership. You don't want to be making expensive mistakes on a high perf plane.

A good first plane is any of the Piper Cherokees or smaller Cessnas (172 types).
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This is definitely solid advice, and I have seriously considered going for something like a Cherokee (I'm flat-out not interested in a high-wing. I know that attitude is gonna hurt my wallet, but I cannot stand not being able to see the inside of my turn). I'm just worried that I'll spend the money and find myself wishing I had something more only a few months down the road, only to be stuck paying interest on the one i bought.
 
I started with a used SR20.
Simple systems, still a descent performing airplane.
At the end of the day, there really are only a few lessons about ownership.
1. Hire an expert in that specific model or brand for the prebuy, or become an expert (a lot harder)
2. Decide how much you are going to help in the MX. Everything from oil changes, to removing panels, to chasing parts. Most mechanics do not like to chase parts, but they will give you leads where to look. In addition, get on a type club forum to ask questions about where to get parts.
3. There is a hefty price each time you change planes. Therefore, if you have a lot of unknowns, rent, look at partnerships, or get something cheap to feel your way into it. All you are trying to do is prevent over buying.
4. Put aside what you think the monthly spend will be. It can be used for renting or other aviation habits. Feel the financial pain first, and determine that is worth it. More people sell planes because the costs and budgets outran reality.

Last point, the whole step up in planes aspect, that was a concept created by salesman to make more money.

Tim
 
tawood said:
...Excuse the pun, but you seem to be rushing for speed. Going faster means things happen faster, which is not something I wanted to have happen when I was a new pilot (and I was a crazy 25 years old when I was a new pilot, racing motorcycles on the side). Just asking: what's the rush? ...I'm not trying to sound critical, and maybe you have a good reason for needing or wanting speed...just pointing out that there are downsides to going faster.
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I think most of us were the same. When I was young I knew I was immortal, but I was still in a hurry. Now I know I am not immortal; despite that I don't feel I need to rush anything. :D
 
ShuRugal said:
This is definitely solid advice, and I have seriously considered going for something like a Cherokee (I'm flat-out not interested in a high-wing. I know that attitude is gonna hurt my wallet, but I cannot stand not being able to see the inside of my turn). I'm just worried that I'll spend the money and find myself wishing I had something more only a few months down the road, only to be stuck paying interest on the one i bought.
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Nah it won't hurt your wallet. If anything if you start with a Cherokee, you'll save a little over a comparable Cessna. An Archer is a really good first plane for instance. Arrow if you have reasons to want complex (I've been slowly preparing for second career)


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Go for what you want. One of my friends built a RV8A while he was learning to fly. Another friend and I checked him out in it and cut him loose in around 10 hrs. He now has over 500 hrs on it. Another friend bought a RV6A with 150 hrs of 172 time under his belt and again after around 10 hrs he was competent in the airplane. He flew that for a couple hundred hours and bought a RV10 that he still flys. I had around 200hrs when I bought my T-6 and got cut loose at 10hrs. With good instruction you can transition into any airplane. Notice I said GOOD instruction. Don
 
now....if one has gobs of $$$$ then by all means....purchase that sexy complex twin. And learn the spensive way. Signature will love on you while yer pay'n....just like a pimp in the red-light district. :D
 
ShuRugal said:
This is definitely solid advice, and I have seriously considered going for something like a Cherokee (I'm flat-out not interested in a high-wing. I know that attitude is gonna hurt my wallet, but I cannot stand not being able to see the inside of my turn). I'm just worried that I'll spend the money and find myself wishing I had something more only a few months down the road, only to be stuck paying interest on the one i bought.
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I was going to recommend an archer, but your perf requirements was holding me back.

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FYI....let me be the first to say....the cheapest way to fly or have a plane is to join a club, the next is to rent, the least is to be the sole owner....holding the bag...I mean complete bill. :D

but, being the sole owner has it's privileges.....you have the keys and can go when and where you like....and the con, you could be holding a $3-5,000 maintenance bill every once in a while.
 
ShuRugal said:
Well, if we want to go with a mission statement:

  • myself and at least one passenger
  • anywhere in the state of VA (KRIC or vicinity starting point) in 90 minutes or less
  • using no more fuel than my station wagon (25 MPG on highway) would to make the same two endpoints
  • has light and responsive controls
  • good pilot visibility IVO lift-vector (high wings need not apply)
Those are my critical bullets anything that doesn't meet them won't be considered. My "wish list" after those three critical items:
  • up to four pax total capacity, just in case
  • ability to make IFR approaches, just in case
  • CS prop for higher efficiency
  • Retracts: see CS prop
  • solid initial climb rate so i can get out of places like BCB and CHO without worrying about mountains (and because it's fun to leave the runway behind at 1200 ft/min, which the P2002 will do on a cold day with just me and half a tank out of OFP)
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Given the above, I would seriously consider looking at a Tiger. I own a 1979 Tiger, with G430W, and a C1. The Tiger has 52 gal total fuel, rear seat that folds down for lots of baggage, useful load of ~900 lbs, leaving 600 after full fuel, and can be had for $45-55K with mid time engine. I was flying yesterday and saw a true airspeed of 137kts at 4000 ft. Regularly see climb rates of 800 FPM ABOUT 200 lbs below MGTOW of 2400 lbs.

Insurance - $690 per year. I am IFR rated, 1100 hrs
Annual - $800 fixed cost, owner assisted
Fuel burn- figure 10 gph to keep is simple
Hangar - $160 per month

Yearly fixed before the first hour of flight 690+800+(160*12)= ~$3200
 

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Dream list for sure. Sure defining some hard and fast requirements is great...but some of them should be reevaluated and flexible.

In particular I don't get the "if I'm burning 10 gph I need 150 ktas". Consider your own mission of 90 minute flights.

Let's assume you're doing 150 ktas (ignore gs for now) and fly for 90 mins. That's 225 nm. Now I do the same flight in a realistic 135 kt machine like an older M20 or Comanche 180, both in your budget and will do IFR.

The difference in flight time for the same distance is...ten minutes. The even "slower" machines like a 172 or Cherokee maybe another 10 mins behind that.

For your distance missions, that speed is going to be much more expensive for not a huge benefit...

Your mission screams M20C, Comanche 180, or Tiger / Comanche 250 at the higher end of the acquisition budget.

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Am I the only person that's reading this, and freaking out a little:

"IFR is a contingency requirement: I want to be able to make instrument approaches if i find myself in a situation where i need to, but i don't plan on making many XC instrument-only flights"

It is as if the OP is wanting an IFR airplane so that instrument approaches may be flown, regardless of the capabilities of the pilot. I'm sure that's not the OP's intent, but it kinda sounds that way.
 
Rgbeard said:
Am I the only person that's reading this, and freaking out a little:

"IFR is a contingency requirement: I want to be able to make instrument approaches if i find myself in a situation where i need to, but i don't plan on making many XC instrument-only flights"

It is as if the OP is wanting an IFR airplane so that instrument approaches may be flown, regardless of the capabilities of the pilot. I'm sure that's not the OP's intent, but it kinda sounds that way.
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No, most private pilots probably start out with that idea, but reality changes it rather quickly

Edit: I'm assuming he's planning on getting IR
 
3 in the green said:
Dream list for sure. Sure defining some hard and fast requirements is great...but some of them should be reevaluated and flexible.

In particular I don't get the "if I'm burning 10 gph I need 150 ktas". Consider your own mission of 90 minute flights.

Let's assume you're doing 150 ktas (ignore gs for now) and fly for 90 mins. That's 225 nm. Now I do the same flight in a realistic 135 kt machine like an older M20 or Comanche 180, both in your budget and will do IFR.

The difference in flight time for the same distance is...ten minutes. The even "slower" machines like a 172 or Cherokee maybe another 10 mins behind that.

For your distance missions, that speed is going to be much more expensive for not a huge benefit...

Your mission screams M20C, Comanche 180, or Tiger / Comanche 250 at the higher end of the acquisition budget.
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Based on what I have seen with responses so far, and my own research, I am really starting to like the idea of an M20C. There's a few i see at KOFP fairly regular, once I finish off my private cert, I'll have to see if I can get someone to take me up in one and find out if I like the handling. I still am kinda attached to the pure speed an RV4 offers... So I guess i'm gonna have to decide whether I want fast and sporty or carrying capacity.

Rgbeard said:
Am I the only person that's reading this, and freaking out a little:

"IFR is a contingency requirement: I want to be able to make instrument approaches if i find myself in a situation where i need to, but i don't plan on making many XC instrument-only flights"

It is as if the OP is wanting an IFR airplane so that instrument approaches may be flown, regardless of the capabilities of the pilot. I'm sure that's not the OP's intent, but it kinda sounds that way.
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Fear not, I have every intention of going on to get IFR certified. For the purpose of my "mission", however, I do not need high-end IFR instruments which one may want to fly XC missions in the soup. A "minimalist" IFR setup is all i really foresee having a need for at this time. Experience may change that, but that's something I will have to find out for myself.
 
Is he in Bellanca Viking territory? Not familiar with the market on those.
 
ShuRugal said:
A "minimalist" IFR setup is all i really foresee having a need for at this time. Experience may change that, but that's something I will have to find out for myself.
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This is what a lot of non-IR pilots think at first(I did), but once they start understanding IFR, they usually come to a different conclusion. Experience will very likely change your view. Basic IFR(no GPS) really limits where you can go and makes getting there more complicated. "hi-end" is a very relative thing and old GPS units are really dated and also limiting. It really depends on where your missions take you now and in the fugure(with IR you tend to start going to places you haven't considered before). Very few non commercial missions are flown in IMC continuously, but lack of proficiency also can get you in trouble quickly.
 
Based on what I am reading, I would second the suggestion of a Tiger.
 
Oh Lordy- another thread that will likely go 500 posts or more.

Best option is to take a ride in a few. You will develop a feel for what you like. Unlike LSAs, the certified aircraft in this price range WILL:
- have warts
- will be 50 years old or more
- and will likely be modified from when it left the factory (two airplanes of the same model year will feel quit different).

But back to my point: I thought I would be a mooney guy or fall back to a Grumman. Took a ride in an old "beater bonanza" and wrote a check (lots of them). My A&P had what I think was a C model mooney in his shop this past week. I remember looking at it thinking I chose right- a bo for me.

Put your bit in some seats and see what fits.
 
A Mooney is the closest to what you want, but the M20C/E requires kind of a stretch of the imagination to call it a four seat. The RV's are closer to what you want, and the reason they don't have retractable gear is because they don't need it to get the speed and range people like. Many of the side by side RVs seem pretty small, but that's your call.

I don't understand your 'need for speed' if all you want to do is fly from one side of Virginia to the other. From KORF to 0VG (about the longest Virginia flight I could find) is 337NM. Assuming you could average 150 knots that's about 2.5 hours. If you were flying 'only' 120 knots then it's 2.8 hours. Is .3 hours of flight time that big of a deal?

Your concern for fuel consumption contradicts your need for speed. If you want low operating costs get a simpler plane and just enjoy that painful 20 extra minutes of flying.

Edited to add:

The more complicated stuff on your airplane (retracts, constant speed prop, larger motor, wheel pants, etc) the more expensive your annual inspection costs will be, even assuming that nothing is ever found wrong on any of your annuals (good luck with that ;).

That fast fuel sipping retract is probably going to eat up all the money you save on gas every year at annual time.
 
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