Lomcovak

Discussion in 'Aerobatics' started by Radar Contact, Mar 6, 2020.

  1. Radar Contact

    Radar Contact Pattern Altitude

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    I've gone on a few aerobatic rides in the past 20 years. Starting with a Pitts S2B, an F16 ride, a P51 ride, formation acro in a T6, formation acro in an Extra 300 and in @EdFred 's Comanche around the pattern (maybe a couple others I missed). Somehow in all these flights and being around aviation for 2 decades I managed to miss hearing the term "Lomcovak".

    My wife just went on her first acro flight (Extra 300) and she did one of these.

    I asked a co-worker (former acro pilot in college) if he had heard of them and he said, "it's like having your body ripped apart". So I looked it up online to read about it.

    Here is what Paul Bertorelli says, "I’d forgotten how unpleasant they are. Negative Gs pretty much suck and a lomcovak is carefully contrived to force all five quarts of blood north of the eyeballs. Molidor had me snug up the seatbelt ratchet before we entered the maneuver and if you’ve done one, you know why. If that belt ever failed, you’d come out of the seat and through the canopy like $#@% through a goose."
    https://www.avweb.com/insider/you-want-a-lomcovak-with-that/

    If it was possible, I have even more respect for my wife after acting like it was nothing. :)

    Is this more common than I was thinking?

     
  2. GRG55

    GRG55 Final Approach

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    I was certain I was going to open this thread and find out someone did a Lomcovak in a 310...:eek:
     
  3. Radar Contact

    Radar Contact Pattern Altitude

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    Ha ha... I would've let Hoover give it a shot... While I was watching from the ground.

    I was really curious if others had heard the term or if it's just a small faction of hardcore acro guys. I was surprised her pilot kept saying it like it was common but I had never heard it.
     
  4. Salty

    Salty Final Approach PoA Supporter

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    It was common “ish” in RC when I was in to that, though few people can do it.
     
  5. GRG55

    GRG55 Final Approach

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    I used to hear the airshow announcers in the '80s and '90s use it often. I think that gyro maneuver was quite popular when there were more Pitts biplanes and similar on the show circuit. Now, with all the high powered beasts out there, it seems torque rolls with a tailslide finish have replaced it.
     
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  6. RoscoeT

    RoscoeT Pattern Altitude

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    Nah, biplanes never did them well. They are common as dirt among all the monoplane (Extra 300, etc.) airshow acts, which do them better. But in the acro world, few people actually use the term Lomcevak. Most just say 'tumble', meaning a maneuver that involves some degree of end over end rotation. Like the barrel roll, there are no standards for exactly how they are done. They are so common in fact that many acts are often labeled 'tumblefests'.
     
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  7. tmyers

    tmyers En-Route

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    Having attended quite a few Dayton Air Fair events over the years, I was familiar with the manuever, but have no clue what control inputs it takes to get an airplane to tumble end for end.

    Isnt Lomcovak, Chek for headache?

    Sent from my SM-N970U using Tapatalk
     
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  8. Jim Rosenow

    Jim Rosenow Line Up and Wait PoA Supporter

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    That's what they always said about Lomcevaks @ OSH, Tim. First one I remember was when Leo Loudenslager introduced his first monoplane up there, although I remember Bob Lyjack doing something similar in his Waco Taperwing earlier.

    Jim

    PS- Come to think of it, Bob's ancestry was Eastern European....wonder if he coined the phrase?
     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2020
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  9. Bill Jennings

    Bill Jennings Touchdown! Greaser! PoA Supporter

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    How soon before she’s looking for one of these on trade a plane?
     
  10. Radar Contact

    Radar Contact Pattern Altitude

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    Luckily she didn't like it that much as I'm maxed out on airplane expenditures. :)
     
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  11. Dana

    Dana Cleared for Takeoff

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    I think most pilots who have any knowledge of aerobatics at least know what a lomcevak is, though few have actually done one.

    In all my years of R/C flying I only ever had one model that was capable of doing one consistently... it was a Top Flite profile U-Control P-40 that I converted to R/C. Would have been around 1977.

    Basically it's a transition between and inside and an outside snap roll where gyroscopic forces take over and make the plane tumble.
     
  12. RoscoeT

    RoscoeT Pattern Altitude

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    Naw that is not at all what a Lomcevak/tumble is. You do not enter a snap roll to start it. The most common way to do it is to climb 45, roll right knife edge and apply left rudder and forward stick. It can transition to a snap roll as it runs out of energy/tumble though. There's also not as much gyro force going on as people think. Modern acro planes use light composite props which cannot apply a ton gyro effect. It's more of an added force than a primary force to get the plane doing some sort of tumble.
     
  13. Kritchlow

    Kritchlow Final Approach

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    We used to call that the “Long Slow F...”
     
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  14. Dana

    Dana Cleared for Takeoff

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    My technique was the 45° climbing knife edge, yes, but I would start an inside snap over the top (i.e. a right snap roll from a left knife edge), then as soon as the snap broke, push the stick into the opposite corner to transition into an outside snap in the opposite direction. If I was lucky I'd get two tumbles before it stabilized in an outside spin.
     
  15. Michael Lloyd

    Michael Lloyd Filing Flight Plan

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    I don't know if it's common but it was amazing watching her go through some pretty tough maneuvers and when he asked if she wanted to keep going she'd say yep.
     
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  16. Brad W

    Brad W Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Kevin (& Jamie)
    I really enjoyed that video.
    Kind of a side note but interesting for me was the camera angle behind her head. I could be wrong but I imagined it as being a fairly close approximation of the pilot's eye view. The s-turning, landing, and the the rest. I felt like it did a nice job of "putting me in the cockpit" with them.
     
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  17. RoscoeT

    RoscoeT Pattern Altitude

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    Doing an inside/out snap still results in a snap at the end, which if you're going upward, it's gonna run out of steam and turn into some sort of random gyration, but that is just not how anyone enters a maneuver that is designed to maximize the degree to which you get real end over end rotation.
     
  18. Radar Contact

    Radar Contact Pattern Altitude

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    Glad you enjoyed it Brad! That forward looking camera was basically right in front of the pilot at eye level. He suggested it and it turned out great. My only fail was I should have had the wing view on the left wing. That was where the device (have no idea the proper aerobatic term) was that shows the angle on the horizon and the string he kept referencing. It was too late to switch it after I realized it. :)
     
  19. Hiperbiper

    Hiperbiper Line Up and Wait

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    If you'd like to see what a lomcevak looked like prior to the new super monoplanes with the "physics off" switch on the instrument panel search out Art Scholl videos on u tube...(the 1984el Toro vid is best) he would do really pretty ones that were fairly rare at shows.

    Chris
     
    Last edited: Mar 10, 2020
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  20. geezer

    geezer Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Scotty McCray flew aerobatics in a sailplane, in the 1970's, and performed the first Lomcevak in an unpowered airplane. I watched his program at Cumberland MD Airport many years ago. His finale was an inverted high speed run down the runway, cut a ribbon with his vertical stabilizer, climb inverted and roll with a turn, and teardrop 180, return and land.
     
  21. Cap'n Jack

    Cap'n Jack Final Approach

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    Ho did he manage that without gyroscopic procession from a propeller?
     
  22. nauga

    nauga Pattern Altitude PoA Supporter

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    Inertial coupling can give you a pretty good end-over-end tumble that looks a lot like a lomcevak, even on airplanes without propellers.

    Nauga,
    and that guppy magic
     
  23. geezer

    geezer Pre-takeoff checklist

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    It was previously believed that gyroscopic forces were required to produce the 3 axis rolling motion, but he carefully analysed the necessary timing of stick and rudder application, and a Lomcevak resulted. Several of the top sailplane air show teams also recreated his success.

    From an airshow perspective, it proved to be a poor choice, as most viewers had no appreciation of the forces and difficulty, plus, it cost huge altitude investments, and in a sailplane, that was not replaceable. The result was the disappearance of the maneuver in sail plane shows.
     
  24. RoscoeT

    RoscoeT Pattern Altitude

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    Gliders can do lateral axis "frisbee" rotations, not so much true end over end tumbles. See 2:30 here. Sometimes "shoulder rolls" are lumped into the tumble category but they are basically just 3D aileron rolls with added rudder and forward stick.

     
  25. Cap'n Jack

    Cap'n Jack Final Approach

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    Thanks for the information!
     
  26. geezer

    geezer Pre-takeoff checklist

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    Scotty flew a Schweizer SGU 2-22EK, N2790Z from 1966 to 1973 in airshows all over the USA.

    If you wish to see his plane, go to the National Air and Space Museum, it is hanging from the ceiling. I suspect that is the ONLY plane in the NASM that I sat in. I found him a fascinating pilot, with amazing skills.

    My partners and I bought the Cessna 172 tow plane he had been using in Feb. 1970. We had the prop repitched for better cruise performance, as he had a climb pitch prop for the tow service.

    Release from the tow plane was typically at 3,000 feet.

    His full name was Byron G. McCray.

    Scotty,s airman information shows no change since 1969.
    Commercial Pilot, ASEL, ASES, AMEL, Glider, IFR.