LOI re 135.263(d)

HighFlyingA380

HighFlyingA380

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Jim F.
I've been looking for an official interpretation on 135.263(d) Flight time limitations and rest requirements. I've found many proposed LOIs, most recently from 2010, but nothing more than just a proposal... Anyone have some insight as to how the FAA views this reg? Thanks.
 
(d) A flight crewmember is not considered to be assigned flight time in excess of flight time limitations if the flights to which he is assigned normally terminate within the limitations, but due to circumstances beyond the control of the certificate holder or flight crewmember (such as adverse weather conditions), are not at the time of departure expected to reach their destination within the planned flight time.

Go to any FSDO and ask....you will get several interpretations at each FSDO, a different answer from OKC and a completely different answer from FAA legal in DC.

Loosely based answer. They can fly you beyond the flight time if THEY determine that you would have normally (what % of flights do complete the trip in the required time) BUT your rest time CAN be reduced also BUT you have to look at what you are scheduled to do on the next trip.

Now we all know that managers lie but it is YOUR license and if they magically "realize" after the fact that YOU indeed did violate the regs, then THEY will self disclose to the Feds and the Feds will come after you.

Do you have any Union protections? We work under the Railway Labor Act which basically says...BOHICA

Been in the business 35 years and started out rabidly anti-Union, but airline management have made me a card carrying, ultra right wing, conservative Union man.
 
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HighFlyingA380 said:
I've been looking for an official interpretation on 135.263(d) Flight time limitations and rest requirements. I've found many proposed LOIs, most recently from 2010, but nothing more than just a proposal... Anyone have some insight as to how the FAA views this reg? Thanks.
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Have you looked at the FAA Chief Counsel website? Seemed to me there's a rest requirements letter posted every two weeks. Many of them deal with other issues but the overall thrust of the letters would, I think, provide "insight" on how the FAA looks at the issue.
 
Ron Levy said:
I did a search there on 135.263, and found 13 letters.

http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org.../agc/pol_adjudication/agc200/interpretations/
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Thanks. I had always just searched through Google; Nice to cut out the middle-man here...

My question, more specifically, is regarding the "legal to start, legal to finish" concept behind 135.263(d). As (d) does not specify a time-frame which the excess flight time applies to.

As an example, let's say I'm scheduled for a 5-leg, 7.5 hour trip. So let's assume my first few legs each go over-block by .2 due to ATC delays and such. So at my final departure point, I've already flown 7.2 hours, and my final leg is blocked at 1.0. Therefore, before my last departure, I'd know that I will not finish within the maximum flight time limitation of 8 hours.

Some say the "legal to start, legal to finish" applies on a leg-by-leg basis, so in the example above it would not be legal to start the last leg. I disagree. I maintain that since (d) does not specify a time frame, it was legal to start the day, so it's legal to finish the day.
 
What I read is: due to non flight time delays outside scheduling's control, say you are at an out station ready to come home after they finally got the runways plowed and you made it out of the deice and through the conga line and look at the time and realize that when you land, you will be in violation of duty time, it's still ok to complete that flight.
 
JimF
It depends upon your company and their interpretation. Again, ask ten different Feds and get ten different answers BUT generally it is considered a TRIP consideration and not a leg by leg deal. The company, despite their scheduling practices, can continue to build trips that will go over a nebulous number of times until the Feds step in. If under normal circumstances I.e. Normal known delays etc. the trip can be completed then you are good to finish the trip. The "non-normal" - out of the companies control that allows this. This where a Fed should ask about a trip planned into a busy airport at rush hours that exceeds times consistently. Don't try to circumvent the "intent" of the regs.

My company is required by the Feds (after much fighting with the crews) to use winter and summer winds to utilize an extra crewmember on long days.

This is why the definition section of ANY working agreement is almost the most important section.





QUOTE=HighFlyingA380;1722951]Thanks. I had always just searched through Google; Nice to cut out the middle-man here...

My question, more specifically, is regarding the "legal to start, legal to finish" concept behind 135.263(d). As (d) does not specify a time-frame which the excess flight time applies to.

As an example, let's say I'm scheduled for a 5-leg, 7.5 hour trip. So let's assume my first few legs each go over-block by .2 due to ATC delays and such. So at my final departure point, I've already flown 7.2 hours, and my final leg is blocked at 1.0. Therefore, before my last departure, I'd know that I will not finish within the maximum flight time limitation of 8 hours.

Some say the "legal to start, legal to finish" applies on a leg-by-leg basis, so in the example above it would not be legal to start the last leg. I disagree. I maintain that since (d) does not specify a time frame, it was legal to start the day, so it's legal to finish the day.[/QUOTE]
 
MD11Pilot said:
JimF
It depends upon your company and their interpretation. Again, ask ten different Feds and get ten different answers BUT generally it is considered a TRIP consideration and not a leg by leg deal. The company, despite their scheduling practices, can continue to build trips that will go over a nebulous number of times until the Feds step in. If under normal circumstances I.e. Normal known delays etc. the trip can be completed then you are good to finish the trip. The "non-normal" - out of the companies control that allows this. This where a Fed should ask about a trip planned into a busy airport at rush hours that exceeds times consistently. Don't try to circumvent the "intent" of the regs.

My company is required by the Feds (after much fighting with the crews) to use winter and summer winds to utilize an extra crewmember on long days.

This is why the definition section of ANY working agreement is almost the most important section.
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Yeah, company doesn't have an official interpretation, that's why I'm asking, to better understand the fed's views on the matter. The STL FSDO seems to be in a bit of a mess, and combine that with getting a new POI, I can't seem to get a straight answer. But for now I'm playing it safe and going on a strict leg-by-leg interpretation of .263(d) until we get something from the FSDO...
 
HighFlyingA380 said:
Thanks. I had always just searched through Google; Nice to cut out the middle-man here...

My question, more specifically, is regarding the "legal to start, legal to finish" concept behind 135.263(d). As (d) does not specify a time-frame which the excess flight time applies to.

As an example, let's say I'm scheduled for a 5-leg, 7.5 hour trip. So let's assume my first few legs each go over-block by .2 due to ATC delays and such. So at my final departure point, I've already flown 7.2 hours, and my final leg is blocked at 1.0. Therefore, before my last departure, I'd know that I will not finish within the maximum flight time limitation of 8 hours.

Some say the "legal to start, legal to finish" applies on a leg-by-leg basis, so in the example above it would not be legal to start the last leg. I disagree. I maintain that since (d) does not specify a time frame, it was legal to start the day, so it's legal to finish the day.
Click to expand...
Did you read all 13 of those letters? Was there nothing in any of them to help you understand the application of the regulation?
 
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