Logging XC with practice en route.

[coflyer]

I just started my instrument rating last week and did a XC flight on hood with my CFII. We did some practice en route, turns/climbs/descents and pattern A.

The flight was 2.0 hours, but my instructor only logged 1.6 hours XC time in my logbook. His argument is that a normal flight from airport A to airport B only takes 0.8 hours, and you can not count the time spent on instrument practice maneuvers en route as XC time.

I am not sure if this is right. Assume the straight line distance between airport A and B is more than 50 nautical miles. If a regular normal flight from A to B takes 1.0 hours, and I do some practice maneuvers for 0.5 hour en route, do I log 1.5 or 1.0 as XC? What happens if I have to hold somewhere en route for 0.5 hours due to ATC? Is that a 1.5 or 1.0 XC?

 

[crash7]

2.0 XC time. Amend your logbook.

 

[TMetzinger]

 

[gprellwitz]

2.0 XC time. Amend your logbook.

Ask him to show you the regulation that says what he is claiming.

 

[Sac Arrow]

That sounds ridiculous. Your flight was 2.0 hours, and it was cross country.

Lets say you made a trip in two legs, one a short hop and the second leg a cross country. That is the case where you would log total/PIC time for both combined, and just the cross country time for the cross country leg.

 

[taters]

This is grossly misunderstood.
If you go to an airport that is 50 miles but take 10 hours to get there its all X-C

 

[coflyer]

Thanks for all your replies.

My instructor also said if I'm going to apply for ATP one day, they will exam my logbook very closely. A XC flight that should take 1 hour normally, but I log 4 hours to finish it, won't count for XC. Although an ATP sounds far far away for me at this moment.

I couldn't find any regulations to support my CFII. But the FAR/AIM is a large book and I might miss something. I'd better have the relevant FARs in hand before I bring this issue to the instructor. FAR 61.1 (3) is the only thing I know, anything else might be relevant?

 

[Sac Arrow]

Thanks for all your replies.

My instructor also said if I'm going to apply for ATP one day, they will exam my logbook very closely. A XC flight that should take 1 hour normally, but I log 4 hours to finish it, won't count for XC. Although an ATP sounds far far away for me at this moment.

I couldn't find any regulations to support my CFII. But the FAR/AIM is a large book and I might miss something. I'd better have the relevant FARs in hand before I bring this issue to the instructor. FAR 61.1 (3) is the only thing I know, anything else might be relevant?

I'm not sure why that would be, but however in your case the difference was a half hour in a two hour flight. Routing and winds can account for that difference.

By that logic, if you had a very stiff tailwind and completed the return trip in one hour, you should be able to log 1.5 hours for the trip, right? (no, don't do that.)

 

[dell30rb]

I need to touch my wheels at some +50mi airports so I can knock out hood time and x/c together. I logged 1.5 hours under the hood today and flew all over the place but never touched down anywhere. Really enjoying the instrument training however

 

[jason]

I just started my instrument rating last week and did a XC flight on hood with my CFII. We did some practice en route, turns/climbs/descents and pattern A.

The flight was 2.0 hours, but my instructor only logged 1.6 hours XC time in my logbook. His argument is that a normal flight from airport A to airport B only takes 0.8 hours, and you can not count the time spent on instrument practice maneuvers en route as XC time.

I am not sure if this is right. Assume the straight line distance between airport A and B is more than 50 nautical miles. If a regular normal flight from A to B takes 1.0 hours, and I do some practice maneuvers for 0.5 hour en route, do I log 1.5 or 1.0 as XC? What happens if I have to hold somewhere en route for 0.5 hours due to ATC? Is that a 1.5 or 1.0 XC?

Your instructor is very very wrong. As has been stated, you can amend your logbook without him...but if you're going to continue training with him, I would get to the bottom of it.

I would be wondering if the other regulations/procedures he's teaching me were so far off base.

 

[taters]

Thanks for all your replies.

My instructor also said if I'm going to apply for ATP one day, they will exam my logbook very closely. A XC flight that should take 1 hour normally, but I log 4 hours to finish it, won't count for XC. Although an ATP sounds far far away for me at this moment.

I couldn't find any regulations to support my CFII. But the FAR/AIM is a large book and I might miss something. I'd better have the relevant FARs in hand before I bring this issue to the instructor. FAR 61.1 (3) is the only thing I know, anything else might be relevant?

Here are the cross country reqs for a rating..Note the ATP reqs. My logbook(s) were glanced over for about 3 mins at the ATP Oral....However they were looked at for over an hour at my last airline interview (by a review committee). I was very glad that I corrected my paper logbook to match my logbook pro.
Remember pens for the entries and PENCIL FOR THE TOTALS!


for the Private Pilot certificate (see FAR 61.109(b)(2)):
Dual cross-country: no restrictions. Solo cross-country: more than
50nm from the point of departure.

for the Instrument rating (see FAR 61.65(e)(1)):
more than 50nm from the point of departure.

for the Commercial certificate (see FAR 61.129(b)(3)(ii):
more than 50nm from the point of departure.

for the ATP certificate (see FAR 61.155(b)(2)):
no restrictions.

 

[HPNPilot1200]

The flight was 2.0 hours, but my instructor only logged 1.6 hours XC time in my logbook. His argument is that a normal flight from airport A to airport B only takes 0.8 hours, and you can not count the time spent on instrument practice maneuvers en route as XC time.

You're CFII is wrong. You can log 2.0 hours of XC in this case. See 14 CFR 61.1(3)(ii).

for the Private Pilot certificate (see FAR 61.109(b)(2)):
Dual cross-country: no restrictions. Solo cross-country: more than
50nm from the point of departure.

for the Instrument rating (see FAR 61.65(e)(1)):
more than 50nm from the point of departure.

for the Commercial certificate (see FAR 61.129(b)(3)(ii):
more than 50nm from the point of departure.

for the ATP certificate (see FAR 61.155(b)(2)):
no restrictions.

The FAR 61.1 cross-country definitions are also worth pointing out:

61.1(3)(ii)(B ) (Private, Commercial, Instrument): "That includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure"

61.1(3)(vii)(B ) (ATP): "That is at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure"

In August 2009 the FAA changed the ATP cross country definition to include a 50nm requirement but does not require a landing.

 

[nddons]

I just started my instrument rating last week and did a XC flight on hood with my CFII. We did some practice en route, turns/climbs/descents and pattern A.

The flight was 2.0 hours, but my instructor only logged 1.6 hours XC time in my logbook. His argument is that a normal flight from airport A to airport B only takes 0.8 hours, and you can not count the time spent on instrument practice maneuvers en route as XC time.

I am not sure if this is right. Assume the straight line distance between airport A and B is more than 50 nautical miles. If a regular normal flight from A to B takes 1.0 hours, and I do some practice maneuvers for 0.5 hour en route, do I log 1.5 or 1.0 as XC? What happens if I have to hold somewhere en route for 0.5 hours due to ATC? Is that a 1.5 or 1.0 XC?

Remember, it's your log book. Since my first hour, I enter all the relevant information, flight time, sim/act instrument, PIC, etc., and THEN give the logbook to the CFII to enter the tasks performed, sign off, etc.

I had a BFR once and the CFI started filling in everything when I stepped away. Notwithstanding that his handwriting looked like he used the fat pencils in grade school, I told him I should fill that out, and he said he likes to fill it out for all of his students. I think that's BS. Needless to say, I now make sure I fill out my part before turning it over to the CFI.

Oh, and good luck on your IR. It was one of the harder things that I've done in my life, but was so worth it.

 

[markb5900]

Once you touch down at an airport that is 51NM from your point of departure the ENTIRE flight becomes XC time. Period. You can fly around and do "stuff" on the way home, it ALL counts as XC time.
As said earlier, ask you cfi to show you in the FAR's where an xc flight must take more than 1 hour. He can't.
If you were flying a Barron or something fast like that it wouldn't be 1.0 to go 51nm, or if you have a hec of a tailwind. I have shown over 150MPH ground speed before in a warrior because of a tail wind.

Log it all as xc time.

 

[TMetzinger]

Thanks for all your replies.

My instructor also said if I'm going to apply for ATP one day, they will exam my logbook very closely. A XC flight that should take 1 hour normally, but I log 4 hours to finish it, won't count for XC. Although an ATP sounds far far away for me at this moment.

I couldn't find any regulations to support my CFII. But the FAR/AIM is a large book and I might miss something. I'd better have the relevant FARs in hand before I bring this issue to the instructor. FAR 61.1 (3) is the only thing I know, anything else might be relevant?

If your instructor's eyes aren't brown, they should be.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

The definition of cross country (61.1) does not include any distance requirements. If it's 5 miles and you got there by "the use of dead reckoning, pilotage, electronic navigation aids, radio aids, or other navigation systems to navigate to the landing point" then it is cross country. And it can be logged as cross country.

The 50 mile (or other distances) minimum is relevant only when totaling up cross country time for " the purpose of meeting the aeronautical experience requirements".

 

[nosehair]

Dual cross-country: no restrictions.

Dual cross-country must also meet the 61.1 definition; landing more than 50nm from departure.

 

[bobmrg]

I just started my instrument rating last week and did a XC flight on hood with my CFII. We did some practice en route, turns/climbs/descents and pattern A.

The flight was 2.0 hours, but my instructor only logged 1.6 hours XC time in my logbook. His argument is that a normal flight from airport A to airport B only takes 0.8 hours, and you can not count the time spent on instrument practice maneuvers en route as XC time.

I am not sure if this is right. Assume the straight line distance between airport A and B is more than 50 nautical miles. If a regular normal flight from A to B takes 1.0 hours, and I do some practice maneuvers for 0.5 hour en route, do I log 1.5 or 1.0 as XC? What happens if I have to hold somewhere en route for 0.5 hours due to ATC? Is that a 1.5 or 1.0 XC?

It is your logbook, not his. FAR 61.51 tells "each person" to document his/her flight time....it does not say that "each person's" instructor must make these entries. FAR 61.189 tells the instructor that S/HE must document the training given in his/her OWN logbook. Log what you want to log and let the examiner decide.

Most logbooks provide a space for THE PILOT to attest to the correctness of the entries...there is no space for the instructor to make that certification.

Bob Gardner

 

[denverpilot]

Opinions: Fly to airport 51 nm away. On the way back, land at airport halfway in-between.

Log whole thing as XC or just the first leg?

How about if return trip happens a week later?

Just curious what *you* do. I'm not chasing any XC req's anymore so I kinda don't care.

 

[Rob Schaffer]

I just started my instrument rating last week and did a XC flight on hood with my CFII. We did some practice en route, turns/climbs/descents and pattern A.

The flight was 2.0 hours, but my instructor only logged 1.6 hours XC time in my logbook. His argument is that a normal flight from airport A to airport B only takes 0.8 hours, and you can not count the time spent on instrument practice maneuvers en route as XC time.

I am not sure if this is right. Assume the straight line distance between airport A and B is more than 50 nautical miles. If a regular normal flight from A to B takes 1.0 hours, and I do some practice maneuvers for 0.5 hour en route, do I log 1.5 or 1.0 as XC? What happens if I have to hold somewhere en route for 0.5 hours due to ATC? Is that a 1.5 or 1.0 XC?

Everyone already answered the logbook question, but if your flight was 2.0 on the hobbs, and he only insisted to put 1.6 in the log book,... I hope you won the argument to only pay 1.6 to the school

 

[JeffDG]

Opinions: Fly to airport 51 nm away. On the way back, land at airport halfway in-between.

Log whole thing as XC or just the first leg?

How about if return trip happens a week later?

Just curious what *you* do. I'm not chasing any XC req's anymore so I kinda don't care.

Whole thing is XC...it's one flight with a point of landing >50nm from the point of departure...That is anything from 50.0000000000000000000001nm and up.

 

[SkyHog]

Benefit of the doubt: maybe he's challenging you to find the truth.

Otherwise, he's a dangerous CFI, because he can't even misunderstand a reg to get that nugget out, he has to be making them up himself. Ask him if you can slip a 172 with full flaps.

 

[p1l0t]

Thanks for all your replies.

My instructor also said if I'm going to apply for ATP one day, they will exam my logbook very closely. A XC flight that should take 1 hour normally, but I log 4 hours to finish it, won't count for XC. Although an ATP sounds far far away for me at this moment.

I couldn't find any regulations to support my CFII. But the FAR/AIM is a large book and I might miss something. I'd better have the relevant FARs in hand before I bring this issue to the instructor. FAR 61.1 (3) is the only thing I know, anything else might be relevant?

Hehe if I were reading your logbook and you logged 4 hours WITHOUT it being a X/C I would be thinking "Your doing it wrong." Unless it was in an aircraft certified for aerobatics. Of course then the aerobatic fuel tank probably won't last you more than a half hour anyway..

<---<^>--->

 

[taters]

Dual cross-country must also meet the 61.1 definition; landing more than 50nm from departure.

You are correct
I should have copy/pasted from here

 

[taters]

It is your logbook, not his. FAR 61.51 tells "each person" to document his/her flight time....it does not say that "each person's" instructor must make these entries. FAR 61.189 tells the instructor that S/HE must document the training given in his/her OWN logbook. Log what you want to log and let the examiner decide.

Most logbooks provide a space for THE PILOT to attest to the correctness of the entries...there is no space for the instructor to make that certification.

Bob Gardner

I like to make sure the entries match verbatim. I pretty much insist on filling out the students logbook pre-solo.

 

[midlifeflyer]

I can envision situations in which the FAA could conceivably cry "foul" about cross country time. Do a direct route of 51 NM and spend an additional 4 hours doing (and logging) 87 takeoffs and landings and one could conceivably get to a point where the FAA decides that the extra 4 hours is a sham and a way will be found to interpret the rules to exclude taking unreasonable advantage of them.

But to apply that to a situation like the OP in which there is real flight time being used to complete real cross country tasks is utter nonsense.

 

[Jaybird180]

I can see that you all are missing the obvious solution to the OPs problem:

Ammend the instructors paycheck to 1.6 hours. Game. Set. Match.

 

[Sac Arrow]

Opinions: Fly to airport 51 nm away. On the way back, land at airport halfway in-between.

Log whole thing as XC or just the first leg?

How about if return trip happens a week later?

Just curious what *you* do. I'm not chasing any XC req's anymore so I kinda don't care.

Whole thing is XC...it's one flight with a point of landing >50nm from the point of departure...That is anything from 50.0000000000000000000001nm and up.

I think he was asking if all three legs could be logged as XC. The first of course. The other two (he stopped halfway in between) would not be.

 

[TMetzinger]

I think he was asking if all three legs could be logged as XC. The first of course. The other two (he stopped halfway in between) would not be.

Wrong. You can log the whole flight as A-B-C-A as a single cross country flight with multiple stops.

 

[poadeleted20]

My instructor also said if I'm going to apply for ATP one day, they will exam my logbook very closely. A XC flight that should take 1 hour normally, but I log 4 hours to finish it, won't count for XC. Although an ATP sounds far far away for me at this moment.

Regarding the boldfaced part, your instructor is talking through his hat.

I couldn't find any regulations to support my CFII.

Not surprising, since there aren't any.

But the FAR/AIM is a large book and I might miss something.

You might, but you didn't.

I'd better have the relevant FARs in hand before I bring this issue to the instructor. FAR 61.1 (3) is the only thing I know, anything else might be relevant?

Nope --- that's the one.

 

[poadeleted20]

Opinions: Fly to airport 51 nm away. On the way back, land at airport halfway in-between.

Log whole thing as XC or just the first leg?

Whole thing, without question.

How about if return trip happens a week later?

Based on both the FAA's most long-standing and most recent statements on the matter, it's all XC. One phrase in particular they used said "the original point of departure does not change with a new day."

 

[jason]

Whole thing, without question.

Based on both the FAA's most long-standing and most recent statements on the matter, it's all XC. One phrase in particular they used said "the original point of departure does not change with a new day."

Must you log it as one flight? What if I split that flight into two entries in the logbook? Would I lose the ability to count it toward ratings? (e.g. the long solo xc for the commercial?)

 

[poadeleted20]

Must you log it as one flight? What if I split that flight into two entries in the logbook? Would I lose the ability to count it toward ratings? (e.g. the long solo xc for the commercial?)

If what you did complies with the 61.1(b)(3) requirement, log it in a way which complies with 61.51 and best shows compliance with 61.1(b)(3).

Yeah, I know, that's kind of a wussy answer, but it's the best I can do given the mixed-up way the FAA has written and interpreted the rules in this area.

 

[denverpilot]

This is fun.

I will probably have to go back over my logs since my electronic logbook calculates distance and look over what it entered.

Here's a new scenario...

Leave home base, fly all the way across the U.S. stopping at airports less than 50 nm from each other on every leg and return. No XC time, right?

How about we throw in one leg of more than 50 nm? First leg? Entire flight is XC.

How about the very last leg? I'd say the entire thing isn't XC except for that last leg.

Same route. Traversed the entire *real* country. No XC.



This fake scenario makes me want to go look at a wall chart and see if a no-XC crossing of the U.S. is even possible.

That'd be fun to have in your logbook.

"I crossed the United States from coast to coast and never logged one minute of XC time."

 

[TMetzinger]

This is fun.

I will probably have to go back over my logs since my electronic logbook calculates distance and look over what it entered.

Here's a new scenario...

Leave home base, fly all the way across the U.S. stopping at airports less than 50 nm from each other on every leg and return. No XC time, right? wrong

How about we throw in one leg of more than 50 nm? First leg? Entire flight is XC.

How about the very last leg? I'd say the entire thing isn't XC except for that last leg.

Same route. Traversed the entire *real* country. No XC.



This fake scenario makes me want to go look at a wall chart and see if a no-XC crossing of the U.S. is even possible.

That'd be fun to have in your logbook
"I crossed the United States from coast to coast and never logged one minute of XC time."

wrong.

First, X/C time is any time you depart one airport and land at another. The only time the distance limits come into play is when you're using that time as aeronautical experience for a rating. Most of us get in the habit of not logging X/C time if it's not 50 NM because of our experience working on the Private, but it's not required. I still don't log X/C time for "short" hops, but I could - I have all the time I need for any certificate I'd want to try for.

For instance, a student pilot could log all the times he went to other airports, even those less than 50 NM, as XC time. But he'd better have a way of quickly showing the examiner the flights that actually meet the requirements for his certificate. Frankly, given the way this reg gets misinterpreted, he would run the risk of having the examiner think he was logging time "wrong" and that could lead to a bad experience. Custom is often more strongly believed in than what the regs actually say.

Second, except where the regs specifically quote a distance requirement for a single leg, you can meet the 50 NM requirement with shorter hops.

Example. I can hop from JYO to FDK to THV to CXY to LNS - none of those legs are 50 NM long, but they'll still all count as an X/C for the private/commercial/instrument. I would log it as JYO-FDK-THV-CXY-LNS on a single line, as in my mind that makes it clear that this was one "trip/flight".

Now that computerized logs are commonplace, it wouldn't be hard to add a flag that would designate an X/C flight as qualifying towards a rating, and then have a report generated showing only those flights. Eventually I'd expect geo-smart log applications to figure it out automatically.

 

[nddons]

This is fun.

I will probably have to go back over my logs since my electronic logbook calculates distance and look over what it entered.

Here's a new scenario...

Leave home base, fly all the way across the U.S. stopping at airports less than 50 nm from each other on every leg and return. No XC time, right?

How about we throw in one leg of more than 50 nm? First leg? Entire flight is XC.

How about the very last leg? I'd say the entire thing isn't XC except for that last leg.

Same route. Traversed the entire *real* country. No XC.



This fake scenario makes me want to go look at a wall chart and see if a no-XC crossing of the U.S. is even possible.

That'd be fun to have in your logbook.

"I crossed the United States from coast to coast and never logged one minute of XC time."

Boy, that would suck for the B-52, B-1, B-2, F-117 guys that flew from US bases to Iraq, etc. and returned to their original point of departure without landing. Maybe they should do a T&G at Tenerife to make them legal cross countries.

 

[Jaybird180]

Boy, that would suck for the B-52, B-1, B-2, F-117 guys that flew from US bases to Iraq, etc. and returned to their original point of departure without landing. Maybe they should do a T&G at Tenerife to make them legal cross countries.

They'd just log the aerial refueling 'stop'

 

[Matthew]

Or Steve Fosset:

From Wiki:

On February 11, 2006, Fossett set the absolute world record for "distance without landing" by flying from the Kennedy Space Center, Florida, around the world eastbound, then upon returning to Florida continuing across the Atlantic a second time to land in Bournemouth, England. The official distance was 25,766 statute miles (41,467 km) and the duration was 76 hours 45 minutes.

The next month, Fossett made a third flight around the world in order to break the absolute record for "Distance over a closed circuit without landing" (with takeoff and landing at the same airport). He took off from Salina, Kansas on March 14, 2006 and returned on March 17, 2006 after flying 25,262 statute miles (40,655 km).

---
That first flight had a landing >50nm from the point of origin, the 2nd would just look like a very, very long local flight.

But, in those cases an ATP gets the credit for XC, even if there isn't a landing >50nm.

 

[dmspilot]

Leave home base, fly all the way across the U.S. stopping at airports less than 50 nm from each other on every leg and return. No XC time, right?

Huh?

That includes a point of landing that was at least a straight-line distance of more than 50 nautical miles from the original point of departure;

All you have to do is land 50nm away from the point of departure. How you got there, how many stops you made, and the distance of each leg is irrelevant.

 

[denverpilot]

All you have to do is land 50nm away from the point of departure. How you got there, how many stops you made, and the distance of each leg is irrelevant.

Heh... that goes back to...

"Was each flight a flight, or a leg of a bigger flight?"

I'm just messing with this thread mostly. I don't care much at all, about how much XC time is in my logbook.

I flew somewhere, I logged it... someone wants to total it up differently in the different columns, that's fine by me. Custom columns in an electronic logbook are easy to create and destroy.