Logging SIC time

Fearless Tower

Fearless Tower

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Fearless Tower
Can anyone confirm that I am reading the FARs right:

Scenario - pilot has sic type rating but is not current (hasn't flown type in over a year). Pilot goes flying with instructor for recurrent (no pax carried). Is that time loggable as sic under FAR 61.51/61.55?

The way I read 61.55, it states that in order to serve as sic, the pilot must have received familiarization training and logged 3 t/o and 3 landings in the a/c within the previous 12 months unless "Designated as the second in command in that specific type of aircraft for the purpose of receiving flight training required by this section, and no passengers or cargo are carried on the aircraft"

Am I reading that correctly?
 
That sounds like the way I would read it, assuming there was no cargo being hauled either.
 
Look at your certificate. What does it say under XII ratings? If you are rated in an aircraft and you are sole manipulator, can you log PIC?
For the sake of discussion, let's pretend you are rated in a CE-500 (Cessna Citation 1) and that is how it is listed under ratings.
Below that is XIII Limitations. In our example, it will have an entry English Proficient and another more or less to the effect of: "CE-500 SIC privileges only"
So, my question is when the captain takes a nap in the left seat and you get to caress the yoke, how do you log your time? PIC or SIC?
And, if you fly the plane with an FAA examiner to get your SIC ticket, do you log it as SIC or PIC? Is the FAA examiner the PIC?
Just curious.
 
jnmeade said:
Look at your certificate. What does it say under XII ratings? If you are rated in an aircraft and you are sole manipulator, can you log PIC?
For the sake of discussion, let's pretend you are rated in a CE-500 (Cessna Citation 1) and that is how it is listed under ratings.
Below that is XIII Limitations. In our example, it will have an entry English Proficient and another more or less to the effect of: "CE-500 SIC privileges only"
So, my question is when the captain takes a nap in the left seat and you get to caress the yoke, how do you log your time? PIC or SIC?
Click to expand...
The question of whether an SIC type rating counts as being "rated" for the purposes of logging PIC time or getting a flight review has yet to be answered by the FAA Chief Counsel. However, given that an SIC type rating is just a pro forma paperwork exercise for a 61.55-qualified SIC, and 61.55 SIC qualification has never counted as being "rated" for those purposes, prudence suggests that without a clear answer from the Chief Counsel, one not consider an SIC type rating as making one "rated" for those purposes. That means logging only SIC time whether manipulating the controls or not, and not getting a flight review in that type.
And, if you fly the plane with an FAA examiner to get your SIC ticket, do you log it as SIC or PIC? Is the FAA examiner the PIC?
Just curious.
Click to expand...
There is no practical test for an SIC type rating -- see 61.55(d). The issuing inspector/DPE merely checks your logbook/training record, signs the 8710-1, and issues the new certificate.
 
Fearless Tower said:
While researching this, found something even more interesting - apparently under the Final Rule that took effect 20 Oct 2009, you can actually log PIC time without having the PIC type rating.

http://rgl.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgFar.nsf/FARSBySectLookup/61.51

Under the new 61.51, if you are doing training toward a PIC type rating, you can actually log that time as PIC.
Click to expand...

That is how I read it too, but it does not apply to SIC training, as I read it.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
That is how I read it too, but it does not apply to SIC training, as I read it.
Click to expand...

I would agree - it would seem that if you already have an sic rating, then you could either choose to do SIC recurrent training and log it as sic time or do PIC training toward the full type and then you could log it as PIC time.
 
Scenario: Part 91. An aircraft type that requires 2 pilots. Both pilots are PIC type rated in the aircraft. Obviously only one can sit in the left seat at a time.

Does the left seater log 100% of the flight time as PIC as the "captain", while the right seater can log PIC when he's the Pilot Flying? Or what?
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Who is designated Pilot in Command for the flight?
Click to expand...
I guess that's my question. For purposes of logging PIC time does it matter who is "designated" PIC or is logging PIC time an issue of who is PF?

Are you saying that only the "designated" PIC can log PIC time?
 
Lance F said:
I guess that's my question. For purposes of logging PIC time does it matter who is "designated" PIC or is logging PIC time an issue of who is PF?

Are you saying that only the "designated" PIC can log PIC time?
Click to expand...

No. What I am saying is the Designated PIC can log PIC for the entire flight and the other pilot can log PIC as Sole Manipulator. Same boat I am in at UAL except I choose not to log PIC because I am not on the rolls (roles?) as a Captain.

But in your case, if you alternate PIC duties, IOW you are designated PIC on every other leg, then you would log PIC for those legs and SIC for the other legs. But I don't know what kind of arrangement you have.
 
Lance F said:
Scenario: Part 91. An aircraft type that requires 2 pilots. Both pilots are PIC type rated in the aircraft. Obviously only one can sit in the left seat at a time.

Does the left seater log 100% of the flight time as PIC as the "captain", while the right seater can log PIC when he's the Pilot Flying? Or what?
Click to expand...
This is all true with the exception that the the designated PIC does not need to be physically sitting in the left seat.
 
Well whew, that is what I have been doing. My "designated" PIC is nice and lets me fly left seat on my PF legs :D.
 
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