Logging PIC

dweyant

Pre-takeoff checklist
Joined
May 3, 2012
Messages
377
Location
Georgetown, TX
Display Name

Display name:
Dan
I'm sure this has been asked, but I couldn't find a good answer, and what I found was fairly confusing...

It is my understanding that if I am flying "under the hood" for IFR practice my safety pilot (who is also a current licensed pilot) and I can both log the time I am under the hood as PIC.

I was fairly certain this was correct, but a friends CFI is claiming that is not the case. I've read the regs, and it is as clear as mud....

Thanks,

-Dan
 
Cue the "can I log it as PIC flowchart" from EdFred.

Short answer.. If your safety pilot is acting as PIC, then you both log PIC time when you're under the hood. If you're acting as PIC, then your safety pilot logs SIC time while you're under the hood.
 
Cue the "can I log it as PIC flowchart" from EdFred.

Short answer.. If your safety pilot is acting as PIC, then you both log PIC time when you're under the hood. If you're acting as PIC, then your safety pilot logs SIC time while you're under the hood.
:yeahthat:
AND you should agree ahead of time who is going to be ACTING PIC at any given time.
 
:yeahthat:
AND you should agree ahead of time who is going to be ACTING PIC at any given time.

Any time you have more than one pilot on board, it behooves you to figure out what your respective roles will be (PIC, safety pilot, instructor, etc...).

CapnRon hopped in the right seat of my plane and stated he could be an instructor, a copilot, or a passenger, but we were going to decide on that before takeoff.
 
Any time you have more than one pilot on board, it behooves you to figure out what your respective roles will be (PIC, safety pilot, instructor, etc...).

CapnRon hopped in the right seat of my plane and stated he could be an instructor, a copilot, or a passenger, but we were going to decide on that before takeoff.

I agree, and that makes a lot of sense for any number of reasons.

This CFII is claiming that the FAA issued a clarification on this recently stating the the safety pilot could not log PIC. I can't find anything, so I'm just trying to make sure I don't get myself in trouble....

-Dan
 
Nothing has changed as far as I know in twenty years on the subject.

The only thing that has, even the least bit, changed is that a reorg of the SECOND IN COMMAND rules ostensibly to change around some type-specific familiarization requirements had the undocumented side-effect of requiring safety pilots (even if they were only the second in command) to have instrument ratings if the flight is conducted under IFR.
 
I agree, and that makes a lot of sense for any number of reasons.

This CFII is claiming that the FAA issued a clarification on this recently stating the the safety pilot could not log PIC. I can't find anything, so I'm just trying to make sure I don't get myself in trouble....

Tell him to show it to you in writing. Kills 95% of Aviation old-wives tales.
 
Tell him to show it to you in writing. Kills 95% of Aviation old-wives tales.

Here is what he sent me that supposedly makes his point, not sure I follow, but that is why I'm asking for clarification.

-Dan

One Opinion:

The last question that always comes up for simulated instrument flying is:
³How do you log the time?² According to AOPA, the Safety Pilot may log the
time as Pilot-In-Command because more than one pilot is required (14 CFR
61.51) and they are a required crew member. The Safety Pilot cannot log
instrument time or any approaches because they were not flying by reference
to instruments.
The Pilot Flying may log the time as PIC because they were the sole
manipulator of the controls (14 CFR 61.51) The Pilot Flying can also log the
time spent under the hood as simulated instrument time and may log all
approaches and landings. After the flight, be sure to sign one another¹s
logbook entries and provide your certificate number.

Other Opinion: This is the one the FAA claims is correct when asked a fews ago.

c) Logging of pilot time. The pilot time described in this section may be used to:
(1) Apply for a certificate or rating issued under this part or a privilege authorized under this part; or
(2) Satisfy the recent flight experience requirements of this part.
(d) Logging of solo flight time. Except for a student pilot performing the duties of pilot in command of an airship requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember, a pilot may log as solo flight time only that flight time when the pilot is the sole occupant of the aircraft.
(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, commercial, or airline transport pilot may log pilot in command flight time for flights-
(i) When the pilot is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated, or has sport pilot privileges for that category and class of aircraft, if the aircraft class rating is appropriate;
(ii) When the pilot is the sole occupant in the aircraft;
(iii) When the pilot, except for a holder of a sport or recreational pilot certificate, acts as pilot in command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted; or
(iv) When the pilot performs the duties of pilot in command while under the supervision of a qualified pilot in command provided—
(A) The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command holds a commercial or airline transport pilot certificate and aircraft rating that is appropriate to the category and class of aircraft being flown, if a class rating is appropriate;
(B) The pilot performing the duties of pilot in command is undergoing an approved pilot in command training program that includes ground and flight training on the following areas of operation—
 
"(iii) ...When the pilot, except for a holder of a sport or recreational pilot certificate, acts as pilot in command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted..."

When a safety pilot is acting as pilot in command, he is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted because in simulated instrument flight two pilots are required.

This is not new.
Oh, and yes, I'm a CFI and an Instrument Ground Instructor. It doesn't make what I've quoted any more accurate/truthful, but some folks put weight on credentials.
 
When a safety pilot is acting as pilot in command, he is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft for which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted because in simulated instrument flight two pilots are required.

This is not new.

The key here is that the safety pilot must agree to act as PIC in order to log PIC. As FlyingRon stated so well, the best bet is to make the decision on roles prior to engine start

The safety pilot scenario is addressed in the following recent interpretation:
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...nterpretations/data/interps/2012/Trussell.pdf


JKG
 
If you have any interest in ever flying professionally, DO NOT MIX IN ANY OF THIS 'ACTING AS' or 'SOLE MANIPULATOR' time as PIC time in your log book.

If you signed for the airplane, if you are the pilot who will have to answer to the plane owner, the insurance company, and the FAA for anything that happens then you are a 'FAR 1' PIC*. There is only ONE FAR-1 PIC at a time!

If you must log 'sole manipulator/acting as' time as PIC, then put it in a separate column labeled 'Part 61.51e PIC', and use it only to satisfy FAA time requirements.

DON'T EVER TRY TO PASS THIS KIND OF TIME OFF AS PIC WHEN YOU ARE APPLYING FOR A PRIVATE SECTOR FLYING JOB!!! YES, I'M SHOUTING! FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!

=========
* FAR 1:
Pilot in command means the person who:
(1) Has final authority and responsibility for the operation and safety of the flight;
(2) Has been designated as pilot in command before or during the flight; and
(3) Holds the appropriate category, class, and type rating, if appropriate, for the conduct of the flight.
 
Last edited:
If you have any interest in ever flying professionally, DO NOT MIX IN ANY OF THIS 'ACTING AS' or 'SOLE MANIPULATOR' time as PIC time in your log book.

If you signed for the airplane, if you are the pilot who will have to answer to the plane owner, the insurance company, and the FAA for anything that happens then you are a 'FAR 1' PIC*. There is only ONE FAR-1 PIC at a time!

If you must log 'sole manipulator/acting as' time as PIC, then put it in a separate column, and use it only to satisfy FAA time requirements.

DON'T EVER TRY TO PASS THIS KIND OF TIME OFF AS PIC WHEN YOU ARE APPLYING FOR A PRIVATE SECTOR FLYING JOB!!! YES, I'M SHOUTING! FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!

=========
* FAR 1:

Why not? Especially when we have a letter from FAA legal saying it is perfectly acceptable?

Also, in my case, I own 1/2 the plane, and my potential safety pilot owns the other 1/2.

-Dan
 
And... For employers that want PIC time to be the time where you signed for the airplane (and most majors do), they are very clear about that. I believe the language SWA uses is similar to "must have xxxx hours of turbine PIC in a 121 operation", where PIC is defined as in FAR 1.

One of the nice things about electronic logbooks is that it's easy to flag flights when you enter them and include/exclude them later.
 
DON'T EVER TRY TO PASS THIS KIND OF TIME OFF AS PIC WHEN YOU ARE APPLYING FOR A PRIVATE SECTOR FLYING JOB!!! YES, I'M SHOUTING! FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!

=========
* FAR 1:

Honestly, I have no idea when I signed for the plane and when I didn't, and neither I nor any company could likely prove it one way or another. I suspect that a major carrier wouldn't be too interested in my single engine piston time anyway, and if they were, wouldn't give two hoots about the few hours here and there when I logged PIC while the other guy was the FAR 1 PIC.

Maybe I'm missing something, but I really don't see this as a big issue.


JKG
 
Last edited:
If you have any interest in ever flying professionally, DO NOT MIX IN ANY OF THIS 'ACTING AS' or 'SOLE MANIPULATOR' time as PIC time in your log book.

If you signed for the airplane, if you are the pilot who will have to answer to the plane owner, the insurance company, and the FAA for anything that happens then you are a 'FAR 1' PIC*. There is only ONE FAR-1 PIC at a time!

If you must log 'sole manipulator/acting as' time as PIC, then put it in a separate column labeled 'Part 61.51e PIC', and use it only to satisfy FAA time requirements.

DON'T EVER TRY TO PASS THIS KIND OF TIME OFF AS PIC WHEN YOU ARE APPLYING FOR A PRIVATE SECTOR FLYING JOB!!! YES, I'M SHOUTING! FOR YOUR OWN GOOD!

=========
* FAR 1:
Apparently aviation employers don't like pilots who follow the rules.

Scary huh?

But yes, (even without the internal need to shout) if you're heading for an airline career, you probably want to maintain two PIC columns, one for the FAA and one for for job application purposes.

Bear in mind the flip side - logging PIC based soley on the Part 1 definition could result in logbook falsification.
 
Last edited:
When you fill out an airline application, and they tell you what sort of time they want in each column of that application, give them what they ask for they way they say they want it -- their instructions tell what goes where. Ditto for the FAA, with 8710-1's and pilot logbooks submitted to support FAA requirements -- 14 CFR Parts 1 and 61 tell you what counts there. The only issue is keeping records so you can sort one from the other.

That said, you'd be silly not to count for FAA purposes time the FAA says counts just because some airline doesn't want it on their application. Conversely, you'd be foolish to put time the airline doesn't want on an airline application just because the FAA says it counts for FAA purposes.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top