Logging PIC vs Acting PIC - because we all love these.

EdFred

EdFred

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White Chocolate
Date: Today - April 14, 2005
Plane: Piper Cherokee 180
Pilot1: 3rd class medical dated April 11, 2005, ASEL
Pilot2: 3rd class medical dated April 11, 2005, ASEL

Pilot1: Has not flown since his BFR on November 10, 2004.
Pilot2: Had his BFR on November 10,2004. Also made 3 night take offs and landings on April 12, 2005.

Legally:
Can Pilot 1 fly the plane with Pilot 2 in it?
Can Pilot 2 log PIC?
 
I'll bite. Here's my answer - pick it apart as required:

Pilot 1 can not act as PIC because he is not current to carry passengers. Pilot 2 must act as PIC for this flight to be legal, and since he *is* PIC (whether or not he touches the controls), Pilot 2 can log it.

Pilot 1 can fly the plane because pilot 2 is PIC not him.

Pilot 1 can also make 3 landings with Pilot 2 as PIC and count them towards currency.

I do not believe Pilot 1 can log PIC as sole manipulator, however, but I'm not sure.
 
Greebo said:
I'll bite. Here's my answer - pick it apart as required:

Pilot 1 can not act as PIC because he is not current to carry passengers. Pilot 2 must act as PIC for this flight to be legal, and since he *is* PIC (whether or not he touches the controls), Pilot 2 can log it.
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No issues here.

Greebo said:
Pilot 1 can fly the plane because pilot 2 is PIC not him.
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Also agreed.

Greebo said:
Pilot 1 can also make 3 landings with Pilot 2 as PIC and count them towards currency.
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Don't think so. I thought the 3 landings made by someone who is not current had to be made solo or with an instructor. If you're not PIC (or a student), your landings don't count, right?

Greebo said:
I do not believe Pilot 1 can log PIC as sole manipulator, however, but I'm not sure.
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Agreed. If he could log PIC as sole manipulator, then so could Joe Non-Pilot who was sole manipulator without an instructor.
 
Remember, 3 landings at night in 90 is for Landing at night with passengers. These two guys are othewise day VFR current.
 
Read it again bruce. Pilot 1 isn't current for pax at all. Pilot 2 has done 3 landings at night to a full stop and is therefore current for pax day or night.
 
§ 61.57 Recent flight experience: Pilot in command.

(a) General experience. (1) Except as provided in paragraph (e) of this section, no person may act as a pilot in command of an aircraft carrying passengers or of an aircraft certificated for more than one pilot flight crewmember unless that person has made at least three takeoffs and three landings within the preceding 90 days, and—
(i) The person acted as the sole manipulator of the flight controls; and

(ii) The required takeoffs and landings were performed in an aircraft of the same category, class, and type (if a type rating is required), and, if the aircraft to be flown is an airplane with a tailwheel, the takeoffs and landings must have been made to a full stop in an airplane with a tailwheel.

(2) For the purpose of meeting the requirements of paragraph (a)(1) of this section, a person may act as a pilot in command of an aircraft under day VFR or day IFR, provided no persons or property are carried on board the aircraft, other than those necessary for the conduct of the flight.

(simulator related passages deleted)
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MSmith said:
Don't think so. I thought the 3 landings made by someone who is not current had to be made solo or with an instructor. If you're not PIC (or a student), your landings don't count, right?
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The above doesn't reference PIC - it references "no persons or property are carried on board the aircraft, other than those necessary for the conduct of the flight". As Pilot II is PIC, he's necessary for the flight...


Agreed. If he could log PIC as sole manipulator, then so could Joe Non-Pilot who was sole manipulator without an instructor.
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Joe Non Pilot can't log PIC cause he's not rated in the aircraft.

Under 61.51 I think I must reverse myself:
(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person—

(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges;

(ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or

(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.
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It appears that for the nature of this flight, based on 61.51:
Pilot I can LOG PIC, as sole manipulator, rated for the aircraft, and count the landings for currency.

Pilot II IS legally PIC - but because the operation does not require 2 pilots (pilot 1 is not under a hood) and because he was not sole manipulator and he was not alone, Pilot II can not LOG PIC.

So: Final conclusion:
Pilot 1 logs PIC (sole manipulator,rated for craft), but is not legally qualified to be PIC. He can do 3 landings and get current however.
Pilot 2 is PIC but can not log it (not sole manipulator, not alone, not 2 crew required).
 
Sounds like a loophole.

While it's probably legal, it may not be prudent. I don't think the FAA really intended to have a non-current pilot in the left seat with a potentially-green private pilot in the right seat, who has probably never done right-seat landings and isn't trained in taking control when it's not going well.

If the left seater were a 10,000 hour retired pilot, then I might be the right seater. If he's my buddy with 150 hours, I'd certainly take a long think about it. (6 months off is a long time for a short-time pilot)
 
N2212R said:
Can Pilot 1 fly the plane with Pilot 2 in it?
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Under Part 91, my dog Duke can fly the plane as long as there's a qualified PIC occupying a pilot station. So whether or not Pilot 1 is PIC-qualfied/current is immaterial if the flight is done Part 91 -- he is permitted to fly the plane as long as Pilot 2 is there acting as PIC. And if Pilot 1 is "rated" in the plane (which in this case he is, although Duke is not), he can log it as PIC time under the "sole manipulator" clause, and as Greebo notes, he can log the landings to become PIC-current again.

N2212R said:
Can Pilot 2 log PIC?
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Nope. He doesn't qualify to log PIC time under any of the clauses of 61.51(e). Pilot 2 gets all the responsibility and none of the benefits.
 
N2212R said:
Date: Today - April 14, 2005
Plane: Piper Cherokee 180
Pilot1: 3rd class medical dated April 11, 2005, ASEL
Pilot2: 3rd class medical dated April 11, 2005, ASEL

Pilot1: Has not flown since his BFR on November 10, 2004.
Pilot2: Had his BFR on November 10,2004. Also made 3 night take offs and landings on April 12, 2005.

Legally:
Can Pilot 1 fly the plane with Pilot 2 in it?
Can Pilot 2 log PIC?
Click to expand...

First and most importantly, where did you find the dancing Hobbes?

Now, your question is simple. P2 is obviously rated and current, so he is legal PIC. P1 being rated in the aircraft can fly with P2 (or solo), log the time and get current. While P1 is flying towards currency, P2 is responsible PIC, but can't log it (legally). So basically, whomever of the 2 is the sole manipulator of the controls logs PIC, but P1 can't be acting PIC until he completes his currency requirements on that flight.
 
Greebo said:
Read it again bruce. Pilot 1 isn't current for pax at all. Pilot 2 has done 3 landings at night to a full stop and is therefore current for pax day or night.
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oops........
 
Henning said:
First and most importantly, where did you find the dancing Hobbes?
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Dancing Hobbes? I used to love Calvin and Hobbes...but I have to admit, the first thing I thought of was an Hour Meter doing the tango! :dance:
 
EdFred said:
Date: Today - April 14, 2005
Plane: Piper Cherokee 180
Pilot1: 3rd class medical dated April 11, 2005, ASEL
Pilot2: 3rd class medical dated April 11, 2005, ASEL

Pilot1: Has not flown since his BFR on November 10, 2004.
Pilot2: Had his BFR on November 10,2004. Also made 3 night take offs and landings on April 12, 2005.

Legally:
Can Pilot 1 fly the plane with Pilot 2 in it?
Can Pilot 2 log PIC?
Click to expand...

What's your answer? I believe that Pilot 2 would act and log PIC, while pilot 1 would be passenger with a fancy piece of plastic in his hip.
 
MSmith said:
Sounds like a loophole.
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I don't see one. Its a rule that simply requires that one have a certain amount of landing currency to =act as PIC= with passengers and recognizes that the person in charge of the flight and responsible for its safety may not be the one doing the physical flying.

Remember that the non-current pilot may not perfom those landings unless the PIC gives him permission to.

Are you saying the rule would make more sense to you if we allow Paul Pic, who has 10,000 hours flight time, to make decisions relating to flying his friends 600 miles in weather and perfom an approach in in low IFR but not trust him enough to make the decision to allow one of his good friend with whom he has flown for years and seen land 1,000 times to make a landing?
 
midlifeflyer said:
...Are you saying the rule would make more sense to you if we allow Paul Pic, who has 10,000 hours flight time, to make decisions relating to flying his friends 600 miles in weather and perfom an approach in in low IFR but not trust him enough to make the decision to allow one of his good friend with whom he has flown for years and seen land 1,000 times to make a landing?
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I don't know what he was saying ten years ago, but whether he is still saying it now is anyone's guess! :D
 
Henning said:
Now, your question is simple. P2 is obviously rated and current, so he is legal PIC. P1 being rated in the aircraft can fly with P2 (or solo), log the time and get current. While P1 is flying towards currency, P2 is responsible PIC, but can't log it (legally). So basically, whomever of the 2 is the sole manipulator of the controls logs PIC, but P1 can't be acting PIC until he completes his currency requirements on that flight.
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I agree with this assessment... unless Pilot 1 is wearing foggles. In that case, I believe Pilot 2 could log PIC as well since they then become required crew.
 
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