Logging PIC Time?

jordane93

jordane93

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Jordan
so im building time for my commercial license and the guy that im flying with is done buiding time. the school paired me up with another guy and he has his private and building time towards his instrument. would he be able to put the hood on and log PIC time? or can he do this only with an instructor? we wuld be switching off being safety pilot and i know its ok if i put the hood on and he is safety pilot we can both log pic time. but whatabout him putting the hood on and me acting as safety pilot? can he still log the time as PIC?
 
Yep, he needs XC-PIC time, so he's gotta do the T/O and Landings, you just need total time, so when the hood's on, you can log either PIC (if you agree to it beforehand) or even SIC is fine too.
 
jordane93 said:
the school paired me up with another guy and he has his private and building time towards his instrument. would he be able to put the hood on and log PIC time?
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As sole manipulator of the controls, yes he can.

or can he do this only with an instructor?
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That is not necessary.

we wuld be switching off being safety pilot and i know its ok if i put the hood on and he is safety pilot we can both log pic time.
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Well, that depends. For BOTH of you to be able to log PIC, the safety pilot must be the legal PIC for the flight. That means current, and appropriately endorsed, if necessary, and to a lesser degree, insured, because the insurance may or may not cover you as PIC.

but whatabout him putting the hood on and me acting as safety pilot? can he still log the time as PIC?
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Same answer.

Bottom line is the person under the hood can log PIC as sole manipulator of the controls as long as he is appropriately rated. The safety pilot can log PIC as long as he is the actual, acting PIC. And that involves everything related to being PIC. Otherwise the safety pilot may log SIC time.
 
As the others said, yes you both can log PIC time under the "saftey pilot" rules.

I do sincerely hope each one of you was only paying half price for that plane.

I've heard of schools having two students shotgun hours like this and still charging each full price for the plane :yikes:
 
we split the price in half. we are paying about 65/hr wet for a warrior. that is absurd that they both have to pay full price
ChitDisturber said:
As the others said, yes you both can log PIC time under the "saftey pilot" rules.

I do sincerely hope each one of you was only paying half price for that plane.

I've heard of schools having two students shotgun hours like this and still charging each full price for the plane :yikes:
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One more point. Well maybe two.

The only time two pilots can log time at the same time is when one is under the hood. If the pilot flying is not under the hood, only the sole manipulator can log the time.

Also, the safety pilot cannot log cross country time. Kind of silly but "rules is rules."
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Also, the safety pilot cannot log cross country time. Kind of silly but "rules is rules."
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Yeah...sorry 'bout that...I got my "I wanna win a bar bet, so I'm writing to the Chief Counsel" itch out of the way there.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
One more point. Well maybe two.

The only time two pilots can log time at the same time is when one is under the hood.
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This is an important point. If I am remembering the details correctly, on at least one occasion, the FAA busted some folks by comparing their logs. When they both reported PIC time that was equal, the FAA threw a fit. Make sure that there is enough of a discrepancy to account for the time to take off and put on the view limiting device, and the time to take of the view limiting device until landing.
 
PPC1052 said:
This is an important point. If I am remembering the details correctly, on at least one occasion, the FAA busted some folks by comparing their logs. When they both reported PIC time that was equal, the FAA threw a fit. Make sure that there is enough of a discrepancy to account for the time to take off and put on the view limiting device, and the time to take of the view limiting device until landing.
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You mean you don't frequently start up, taxi and takeoff with the hood on. The sp is PIC, its his problem if you hit something ;)
 
Let me reemphasize one point made above -- other than Part 121/135-type operations where a SIC is required, only one pilot can log XC time on this flight regardless of who's logging PIC time, and that's the pilot flying the trip including takeoff and landing. That means if the pilot flying taxies out, takes off, puts on the hood, flies the route, takes off the hood, lands, and taxies in, s/he logs XC and PIC for the whole flight. The other pilot acting as PIC and safety pilot but not flying logs PIC time for the time the hood was on, but no XC time, and nothing during taxi, takeoff, or landing. Yes, there's a Chief Counsel interpretation specifically on point.
 
JeffDG said:
Yep, he needs XC-PIC time, so he's gotta do the T/O and Landings, you just need total time, so when the hood's on, you can log either PIC (if you agree to it beforehand) or even SIC is fine too.
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SIC - incorrect. Well, yes you can log anything you want but if you intend to use towards the aeronautical experience for additional ratings or certificates it has to be legal time. Logging SIC in a part 91 Piper Cherokee doesn't exist. The aircraft is single pilot according to the type certificate and the operation does not require a second pilot, such as 121/135 operations.


If you are boarding a plane and don't understand if you are PIC or SIC, then you're just a passenger and don't log anything. There are numerous posts, discussions and publications that address this.
 
CFI AandP said:
SIC - incorrect. Well, yes you can log anything you want but if you intend to use towards the aeronautical experience for additional ratings or certificates it has to be legal time. Logging SIC in a part 91 Piper Cherokee doesn't exist. The aircraft is single pilot according to the type certificate and the operation does not require a second pilot, such as 121/135 operations.


If you are boarding a plane and don't understand if you are PIC or SIC, then you're just a passenger and don't log anything. There are numerous posts, discussions and publications that address this.
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And you seem to be another one. 61.51. Learn it. Love it.

(f) Logging second-in-command flight time. A person may log second-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person:

(1) Is qualified in accordance with the second-in-command requirements of §61.55 of this part, and occupies a crewmember station in an aircraft that requires more than one pilot by the aircraft's type certificate; or

(2) Holds the appropriate category, class, and instrument rating (if an instrument rating is required for the flight) for the aircraft being flown, and more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraftor the regulations under which the flight is being conducted.

And guess what, there's even a regulation under which said flight would be conducted. 91.109

(c) No person may operate a civil aircraft in simulated instrument flight unless—
(1) The other control seat is occupied by a safety pilot who possesses at least a private pilot certificate with category and class ratings appropriate to the aircraft being flown.
(2) The safety pilot has adequate vision forward and to each side of the aircraft, or a competent observer in the aircraft adequately supplements the vision of the safety pilot; and

Safety pilot = required crew. But it was nice of you to chime in with your expertise.
 
CFI AandP said:
SIC - incorrect. Well, yes you can log anything you want but if you intend to use towards the aeronautical experience for additional ratings or certificates it has to be legal time. Logging SIC in a part 91 Piper Cherokee doesn't exist. The aircraft is single pilot according to the type certificate and the operation does not require a second pilot, such as 121/135 operations.


If you are boarding a plane and don't understand if you are PIC or SIC, then you're just a passenger and don't log anything. There are numerous posts, discussions and publications that address this.
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You can log SIC while a safety pilot for someone under the hood if you are not the PIC. The moment the pilot puts the hood on, the safety pilot becomes a required crewmember, as a second pilot is required when the pilot flying is wearing a view-restricting device.
 
EdFred said:
And you seem to be another one. 61.51. Learn it. Love it.

(f) Logging second-in-command flight time. A person may log second-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person:

(1) Is qualified in accordance with the second-in-command requirements of §61.55 of this part, and occupies a crewmember station in an aircraft that requires more than one pilot by the aircraft's type certificate; or

(2) Holds the appropriate category, class, and instrument rating (if an instrument rating is required for the flight) for the aircraft being flown, and more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraftor the regulations under which the flight is being conducted.

And guess what, there's even a regulation under which said flight would be conducted. 91.109

(c) No person may operate a civil aircraft in simulated instrument flight unless—
(1) The other control seat is occupied by a safety pilot who possesses at least a private pilot certificate with category and class ratings appropriate to the aircraft being flown.
(2) The safety pilot has adequate vision forward and to each side of the aircraft, or a competent observer in the aircraft adequately supplements the vision of the safety pilot; and

Safety pilot = required crew. But it was nice of you to chime in with your expertise.
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Oddly enough, it's almost the exact same regulation that permits you to log PIC as a safety pilot.
 
EdFred said:
And you seem to be another one. 61.51. Learn it. Love it.

(f) Logging second-in-command flight time. A person may log second-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person:

(1) Is qualified in accordance with the second-in-command requirements of §61.55 of this part, and occupies a crewmember station in an aircraft that requires more than one pilot by the aircraft's type certificate; or

(2) Holds the appropriate category, class, and instrument rating (if an instrument rating is required for the flight) for the aircraft being flown, and more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraftor the regulations under which the flight is being conducted.

And guess what, there's even a regulation under which said flight would be conducted. 91.109

(c) No person may operate a civil aircraft in simulated instrument flight unless—
(1) The other control seat is occupied by a safety pilot who possesses at least a private pilot certificate with category and class ratings appropriate to the aircraft being flown.
(2) The safety pilot has adequate vision forward and to each side of the aircraft, or a competent observer in the aircraft adequately supplements the vision of the safety pilot; and

Safety pilot = required crew. But it was nice of you to chime in with your expertise.
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Please show a reference that states a safety pilot in a Piper Cherokee operating under part 91 is SIC? Not required crew member in the interest of safety of flight but Second In Command.

If you are referring to "regulations under which the flight is conducted" that addresses operations such as Cape Air and Seaborne Airlines. Both of which operate aircraft that are certified single pilot. However their operating certificate requires two crew members. SIC required due to the operation, otherwise they are single pilot aircraft.
 
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CFI AandP said:
Please show a reference that states a safety pilot in a Piper Cherokee operating under part 91 is SIC? Not required crew member in the interest of flight but Second In Command.
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http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...louis glenn - (2009) legal interpretation.pdf

Accordingly, Pilot B may log SIC time for the portion of the flight during which Pilot B acts as safety pilot because Pilot B was a required flight crewmember for that portion of the flight under 91.109(b)
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That letter of interpretation states that one could log either SIC or PIC during the portion of the flight in which the other pilot is under simulated instrument conditions. Go figure, two answers to the same question.
 
CFI AandP said:
That letter of interpretation states that one could log either SIC or PIC during the portion of the flight in which the other pilot is under simulated instrument conditions. Go figure, two answers to the same question.
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It depends whether you are acting as PIC or not.

So, if I go up with someone in a tailwheel and act as safety pilot, I could only log SIC, as I'm not qualified to be PIC (no endorsement). Similarly, if I go up in a tricycle gear, but there is no prior agreement that I will act as PIC, I still log SIC time.
 
CFI AandP said:
SIC - incorrect.
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Cory, if you want an FAR reference, it is 91.109(c).

§91.109 Flight instruction; Simulated instrument flight and certain flight tests.

(c) No person may operate a civil aircraft in simulated instrument flight unless—

(1) The other control seat is occupied by a safety pilot who possesses at least a private pilot certificate with category and class ratings appropriate to the aircraft being flown.
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That makes the second pilot a required crewmember, regardless of whether the plane is certified for two pilots or not.

And as has been stated, whether or not that pilot can log PIC depends on whether he is ACTING as PIC. If he is not acting as PIC, he will log SIC. Perfectly legal, and in accordance with the FAA's own interpretations.
 
CFI AandP said:
Please show a reference that states a safety pilot in a Piper Cherokee operating under part 91 is SIC? Not required crew member in the interest of safety of flight but Second In Command.

If you are referring to "regulations under which the flight is conducted" that addresses operations such as Cape Air and Seaborne Airlines. Both of which operate aircraft that are certified single pilot. However their operating certificate requires two crew members. SIC required due to the operation, otherwise they are single pilot aircraft.
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You need to read the FAA Chief Counsel interpretations more. The safety pilot in a Cherokee is not a SIC, but is nevertheless allowed to log SIC time.
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org.../2013/beaty - (2013) legal interpretation.pdf
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org...12/trussell - (2012) legal interpretation.pdf
 
CFI AandP said:
That letter of interpretation states that one could log either SIC or PIC during the portion of the flight in which the other pilot is under simulated instrument conditions. Go figure, two answers to the same question.
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One answer only -- The Trussell letter clearly states when a safety pilot can log PIC time, and when s/he can log only SIC time.
 
Four guys to correct one misconception - talk about a feeding frenzy! :rofl:
 
Palmpilot said:
Four guys to correct one misconception - talk about a feeding frenzy! :rofl:
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Mmm. Yummy boring regulations aimed at keeping kids from flying for a living.

('Cause most of us don't care if we log time for anything, and we will Safety Pilot for friends and not care about getting a few tenths of SIC time. Or whatever. Most of the time it's a big enough pain figuring out who's PIC.)
 
Greg Bockelman said:
LOL. Well, it SHOULDN'T be.

Thing is, I would bet money that a vast majority do it wrong. :rofl:
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Ahh Greg with the truth ... Again. Heh.

I have noticed it's easier with PoA folks and pilots who actually pay attention to crap.

I've thought about keeping a copy of Ed's or Scott's or whoever's PIC PDF in my flight bag to hand to the slow ones.
 
Palmpilot said:
Four guys to correct one misconception - talk about a feeding frenzy! :rofl:
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Yes, Richard...but please remember that no question has REALLY been answered until Ron chimes in and repeats the same stuff or says "Let me add...." even though the added material is either superfluous or irrelevant to the original question posed.

Then and only then does it become an OFFICIAL answer, at which point the thread should be closed forthwith by the admins/mods as no further input is needed.

:D


Mike
 
I only have a few hours of safety pilot time. All of it was for a guy waiting on a deferred medical, so the "who's the acting PIC?" question was pretty easily answered.
 
MikeELP said:
Yes, Richard...but please remember that no question has REALLY been answered until Ron chimes in and repeats the same stuff or says "Let me add...." even though the added material is either superfluous or irrelevant to the original question posed.

Then and only then does it become an OFFICIAL answer, at which point the thread should be closed forthwith by the admins/mods as no further input is needed.
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No, it's not complete until MikeELP has something inane, pointless, and annoying to say about me.
 
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