Logging PIC FAQ Thread

t0r0nad0

t0r0nad0

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PJ Gustafson
I don't know what it is lately that's giving me the urge to compile these different things into one thread that helps explain everything, but here's another one. Hopefully this will help prevent people from starting new threads with these questions, most of which have been answered elsewhere.

So, here goes:

Logging PIC Time

The pertinent FAR is 14 CFR 61.51(e):

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person—
(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges;
(ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or
(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.
Click to expand...

First, it is important to note that Logging PIC time has a different set of rules than Acting as PIC. Rules for Acting as PIC fall under 14 CFR 61.31(d) through (k):

(d) Aircraft category, class, and type ratings: Limitations on operating an aircraft as the pilot in command. To serve as the pilot in command of an aircraft, a person must—
(1) Hold the appropriate category, class, and type rating (if a class rating and type rating are required) for the aircraft to be flown;
(2) Be receiving training for the purpose of obtaining an additional pilot certificate and rating that are appropriate to that aircraft, and be under the supervision of an authorized instructor; or
(3) Have received training required by this part that is appropriate to the aircraft category, class, and type rating (if a class or type rating is required) for the aircraft to be flown, and have received the required endorsements from an instructor who is authorized to provide the required endorsements for solo flight in that aircraft.
(e) Additional training required for operating complex airplanes. (1) Except as provided in paragraph (e)(2) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of a complex airplane (an airplane that has a retractable landing gear, flaps, and a controllable pitch propeller; or, in the case of a seaplane, flaps and a controllable pitch propeller), unless the person has—
(i) Received and logged ground and flight training from an authorized instructor in a complex airplane, or in a flight simulator or flight training device that is representative of a complex airplane, and has been found proficient in the operation and systems of the airplane; and
(ii) Received a one-time endorsement in the pilot's logbook from an authorized instructor who certifies the person is proficient to operate a complex airplane.
(2) The training and endorsement required by paragraph (e)(1) of this section is not required if the person has logged flight time as pilot in command of a complex airplane, or in a flight simulator or flight training device that is representative of a complex airplane prior to August 4, 1997.
(f) Additional training required for operating high-performance airplanes. (1) Except as provided in paragraph (f)(2) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of a high-performance airplane (an airplane with an engine of more than 200 horsepower), unless the person has—
(i) Received and logged ground and flight training from an authorized instructor in a high-performance airplane, or in a flight simulator or flight training device that is representative of a high-performance airplane, and has been found proficient in the operation and systems of the airplane; and
(ii) Received a one-time endorsement in the pilot's logbook from an authorized instructor who certifies the person is proficient to operate a high-performance airplane.
(2) The training and endorsement required by paragraph (f)(1) of this section is not required if the person has logged flight time as pilot in command of a high-performance airplane, or in a flight simulator or flight training device that is representative of a high-performance airplane prior to August 4, 1997.
(g) Additional training required for operating pressurized aircraft capable of operating at high altitudes. (1) Except as provided in paragraph (g)(3) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of a pressurized aircraft (an aircraft that has a service ceiling or maximum operating altitude, whichever is lower, above 25,000 feet MSL), unless that person has received and logged ground training from an authorized instructor and obtained an endorsement in the person's logbook or training record from an authorized instructor who certifies the person has satisfactorily accomplished the ground training. The ground training must include at least the following subjects:
(i) High-altitude aerodynamics and meteorology;
(ii) Respiration;
(iii) Effects, symptoms, and causes of hypoxia and any other high-altitude sickness;
(iv) Duration of consciousness without supplemental oxygen;
(v) Effects of prolonged usage of supplemental oxygen;
(vi) Causes and effects of gas expansion and gas bubble formation;
(vii) Preventive measures for eliminating gas expansion, gas bubble formation, and high-altitude sickness;
(viii) Physical phenomena and incidents of decompression; and
(ix) Any other physiological aspects of high-altitude flight.
(2) Except as provided in paragraph (g)(3) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of a pressurized aircraft unless that person has received and logged training from an authorized instructor in a pressurized aircraft, or in a flight simulator or flight training device that is representative of a pressurized aircraft, and obtained an endorsement in the person's logbook or training record from an authorized instructor who found the person proficient in the operation of a pressurized aircraft. The flight training must include at least the following subjects:
(i) Normal cruise flight operations while operating above 25,000 feet MSL;
(ii) Proper emergency procedures for simulated rapid decompression without actually depressurizing the aircraft; and
(iii) Emergency descent procedures.
(3) The training and endorsement required by paragraphs (g)(1) and (g)(2) of this section are not required if that person can document satisfactory accomplishment of any of the following in a pressurized aircraft, or in a flight simulator or flight training device that is representative of a pressurized aircraft:
(i) Serving as pilot in command before April 15, 1991;
(ii) Completing a pilot proficiency check for a pilot certificate or rating before April 15, 1991;
(iii) Completing an official pilot-in-command check conducted by the military services of the United States; or
(iv) Completing a pilot-in-command proficiency check under part 121, 125, or 135 of this chapter conducted by the Administrator or by an approved pilot check airman.
(h) Additional aircraft type-specific training. No person may serve as pilot in command of an aircraft that the Administrator has determined requires aircraft type-specific training unless that person has—
(1) Received and logged type-specific training in the aircraft, or in a flight simulator or flight training device that is representative of that type of aircraft; and
(2) Received a logbook endorsement from an authorized instructor who has found the person proficient in the operation of the aircraft and its systems.
(i) Additional training required for operating tailwheel airplanes. (1) Except as provided in paragraph (i)(2) of this section, no person may act as pilot in command of a tailwheel airplane unless that person has received and logged flight training from an authorized instructor in a tailwheel airplane and received an endorsement in the person's logbook from an authorized instructor who found the person proficient in the operation of a tailwheel airplane. The flight training must include at least the following maneuvers and procedures:
(i) Normal and crosswind takeoffs and landings;
(ii) Wheel landings (unless the manufacturer has recommended against such landings); and
(iii) Go-around procedures.
(2) The training and endorsement required by paragraph (i)(1) of this section is not required if the person logged pilot-in-command time in a tailwheel airplane before April 15, 1991.
(j) Additional training required for operating a glider. (1) No person may act as pilot in command of a glider—
(i) Using ground-tow procedures, unless that person has satisfactorily accomplished ground and flight training on ground-tow procedures and operations, and has received an endorsement from an authorized instructor who certifies in that pilot's logbook that the pilot has been found proficient in ground-tow procedures and operations;
(ii) Using aerotow procedures, unless that person has satisfactorily accomplished ground and flight training on aerotow procedures and operations, and has received an endorsement from an authorized instructor who certifies in that pilot's logbook that the pilot has been found proficient in aerotow procedures and operations; or
(iii) Using self-launch procedures, unless that person has satisfactorily accomplished ground and flight training on self-launch procedures and operations, and has received an endorsement from an authorized instructor who certifies in that pilot's logbook that the pilot has been found proficient in self-launch procedures and operations.
(2) The holder of a glider rating issued prior to August 4, 1997, is considered to be in compliance with the training and logbook endorsement requirements of this paragraph for the specific operating privilege for which the holder is already qualified.
(k) Exceptions. (1) This section does not require a category and class rating for aircraft not type-certificated as airplanes, rotorcraft, gliders, lighter-than-air aircraft, powered-lifts, powered parachutes, or weight-shift-control aircraft.
(2) The rating limitations of this section do not apply to—
(i) An applicant when taking a practical test given by an examiner;
(ii) The holder of a student pilot certificate;
(iii) The holder of a pilot certificate when operating an aircraft under the authority of—
(A) A provisional type certificate; or
(B) An experimental certificate, unless the operation involves carrying a passenger;
(iv) The holder of a pilot certificate with a lighter-than-air category rating when operating a balloon;
(v) The holder of a recreational pilot certificate operating under the provisions of §61.101(h); or
(vi) The holder of a sport pilot certificate when operating a light-sport aircraft.
Click to expand...

Perhaps this is a good time to ask that EdFred post his wonderful flow-charts for these two regulations in this thread...

So, key points here -

You do not need the same endorsements to log time as PIC that you would need to actually act as PIC for a flight. So long as you are rated for the category, class, and type (if a type rating is required), you may log time as PIC. I.e., if you are a Private Pilot - Airplane Single-Engine Land, you may log PIC time for that time you are the sole manipulator of the controls in any aircraft that's in that category and class which doesn't require a type rating. It doesn't matter if it's a Cessna 150 or a Pilatus PC-12.

However, if the airplane falls outside of the category or class for which you are rated, you may not log PIC time for that aircraft. I.e., if you're a PP-ASEL, you many not log PIC time in a multi-engine aircraft or a sea-plane (even single-engine).

Aircraft ratings (categories and classes) are defined in 14 CFR 61.5(b):

(b) The following ratings are placed on a pilot certificate (other than student pilot) when an applicant satisfactorily accomplishes the training and certification requirements for the rating sought:
(1) Aircraft category ratings—
(i) Airplane.
(ii) Rotorcraft.
(iii) Glider.
(iv) Lighter-than-air.
(v) Powered-lift.
(vi) Powered parachute.
(vii) Weight-shift-control aircraft.
(2) Airplane class ratings—
(i) Single-engine land.
(ii) Multiengine land.
(iii) Single-engine sea.
(iv) Multiengine sea.
(3) Rotorcraft class ratings—
(i) Helicopter.
(ii) Gyroplane.
(4) Lighter-than-air class ratings—
(i) Airship.
(ii) Balloon.
(5) Weight-shift-control aircraft class ratings—
(i) Weight-shift-control aircraft land.
(ii) Weight-shift-control aircraft sea.
(6) Powered parachute class ratings—
(i) Powered parachute land.
(ii) Powered parachute sea.
(7) Aircraft type ratings—
(i) Large aircraft other than lighter-than-air.
(ii) Turbojet-powered airplanes.
(iii) Other aircraft type ratings specified by the Administrator through the aircraft type certification procedures.
(iv) Second-in-command pilot type rating for aircraft that is certificated for operations with a minimum crew of at least two pilots.
(8) Instrument ratings (on private and commercial pilot certificates only)—
(i) Instrument—Airplane.
(ii) Instrument—Helicopter.
(iii) Instrument—Powered-lift.
Click to expand...

Have to run now, more later...
 
Oh, BTW... thanks to everyone here who helped me understand this.
 
Did anyone notice or can explain why they listed sport pilot in (e) but not in the exception listed in (iii)

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person—
(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges;
(ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or
(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.
 
So, here are a couple of FAQ's that have come in, including a couple of my own:

1) I'm a PP-ASEL with no extra endorsements. If I fly right seat with my friend in his Bonanza and take the controls, can I log that time as PIC even without a High Performance and Complex endorsement?

Yes - you are rated for the category/class of airplane, therefore you can log PIC for that time which you are the sole manipulator of the controls. See 14 CFR 61.51(e)(1)(i) above. It should be noted however, that if you are acting as sole manipulator of the controls, your friend cannot log PIC for that time unless you are under the hood (see #2 below).

2) When can both pilots log PIC time?

One example is when one pilot is manipulating the controls under the hood in simulated instrument flight.

14 CFR 61.51(e)(1)(iii) states:
(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.
Click to expand...

Emphasis added by me... if you look at the regulations for simulated instrument flight, 14 CFR 91.109(b) states:

(b) No person may operate a civil aircraft in simulated instrument flight unless—
(1) The other control seat is occupied by a safety pilot who possesses at least a private pilot certificate with category and class ratings appropriate to the aircraft being flown.
(2) The safety pilot has adequate vision forward and to each side of the aircraft, or a competent observer in the aircraft adequately supplements the vision of the safety pilot; and
(3) Except in the case of lighter-than-air aircraft, that aircraft is equipped with fully functioning dual controls. However, simulated instrument flight may be conducted in a single-engine airplane, equipped with a single, functioning, throwover control wheel, in place of fixed, dual controls of the elevator and ailerons, when—
(i) The safety pilot has determined that the flight can be conducted safely; and
(ii) The person manipulating the controls has at least a private pilot certificate with appropriate category and class ratings.
Click to expand...

So therefore, the safety pilot is acting as pilot in command since the regulations require two pilots and the pilot under the hood is the sole manipulator of the controls, so both can log PIC time.

Another example is when you are receiving dual instruction in an aircraft category and class for which you are rated. So long as you are the sole manipulator of the controls, you can log PIC time. Also, since 14 CFR 61.51(e)(3) states:

(3) An authorized instructor may log as pilot-in-command time all flight time while acting as an authorized instructor.
Click to expand...

The CFI can log PIC time for that flight as well.

3) So, if I'm a PP-ASEL and I receive instruction in a multi-engine airplane or seaplane, does that mean I can log PIC time for the time that I'm the sole manipulator of the controls while receiving dual instruction?

No - the aircraft you're flying is in a different category and class than that for which you are rated, therefore you cannot log PIC time.
 
t0r0nad0 said:
Thanks Ted, that would be one of EdFred's flow charts that I referenced in my first post. Do you have the url to the one on Acting as PIC?
Click to expand...

No idea, PJ, I just grabbed that link from his signature. :)

I find this stuff interesting, it's good to have the clarification written out.
 
GigG601XL said:
Did anyone notice or can explain why they listed sport pilot in (e) but not in the exception listed in (iii)

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person—
(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges;
(ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or
(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.
Click to expand...

I refer you to 14 CFR 61.315(c)(19)
(c) You may not act as pilot in command of a light-sport aircraft:

-snip-

(19) As a pilot flight crewmember on any aircraft for which more than one pilot is required by the type certificate of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.
Click to expand...

As a sport pilot, you are prohibited from acting as a pilot flight crewmember in any airplane that requires more than one pilot anyway, so it's intrinsic that you cannot log PIC time for it. Exception not necessary.
 
GigG601XL said:
Did anyone notice or can explain why they listed sport pilot in (e) but not in the exception listed in (iii)

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport, recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which that person—
(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft for which the pilot is rated or has privileges;
(ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or
(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is required under the type certification of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted.
Click to expand...
Good question. Answer is that it doesn't matter (may not matter either for the recreational either).

A sport pilot is not permitted to act "As a pilot flight crewmember on any aircraft for which more than one pilot is required by the type certificate of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted." 61.315(c)(19).
 
midlifeflyer said:
(may not matter either for the recreational either).
Click to expand...

It does matter... see 14 CFR 61.101(f):

(f) A recreational pilot may not act as a pilot flight crewmember on any aircraft for which more than one pilot is required by the type certificate of the aircraft or the regulations under which the flight is conducted, except when:
(1) Receiving flight training from a person authorized to provide flight training on board an airship; and
(2) No person other than a required flight crewmember is carried on the aircraft.
Click to expand...

So long as they're receiving instruction and nobody but required flight crewmembers are aboard, a recreational pilot can act as a required flight crewmember. They just can't log that time as PIC according to 14 CFR 61.51(e)(1)(iii).
 
thanks PJ, but itll be amazing if this thread stops future threads from starting about logging vs. acting as PIC.
 
t0r0nad0 said:
It does matter... see 14 CFR 61.101(f):



So long as they're receiving instruction and nobody but required flight crewmembers are aboard, a recreational pilot can act as a required flight crewmember. They just can't log that time as PIC according to 14 CFR 61.51(e)(1)(iii).
Click to expand...
That's an interesting reg. Only matters when receiving instruction on an airship. I guess it does matter a tiny bit.
 
All of this is great information and the flowchart makes things a lot simpler.

A couple of things I would add is the FAA's logic behind the regs. The reason both pilots can log PIC under certain circumstances is because when the sole manipulator is flying under the hood, the aircraft becomes a required two crewmember aircraft. Therefore as long as both pilots agree that the safety pilot is ACTING as PIC, both pilots may LOG PIC. It's also possible that the sole manipulator can ACT as PIC. In this case the safety pilot may not log PIC, however he or she may log SIC.
 
Frenchie said:
A couple of things I would add is the FAA's logic behind the regs. The reason both pilots can log PIC under certain circumstances is because when the sole manipulator is flying under the hood, the aircraft becomes a required two crewmember aircraft.
Click to expand...
It does? So you think it's illegal to take a non-pilot who has flown instruments in MSFS and put him under the hood in a real airplane? That a CFI giving instruction in flight solely by reference to instruments to a student pilot is engaged in a 2-pilot required operation (which a student pilot would not qualify for)?

Interesting...
 
midlifeflyer said:
It does? So you think it's illegal to take a non-pilot who has flown instruments in MSFS and put him under the hood in a real airplane? That a CFI giving instruction in flight solely by reference to instruments to a student pilot is engaged in a 2-pilot required operation (which a student pilot would not qualify for)?

Interesting...
Click to expand...

Nothing he said implies what you said.

When operating in VMC, part of the required duties of the pilot in command is to see and avoid traffic. A person acting as pilot in command cannot perform those duties while under a hood. Thus he needs to delegate them to another qualified pilot, who is required and thus is acting and logging SIC.

If a pilot acting as PIC allows another rated pilot to manipulate the controls under the hood, the pilot under the hood is allowed to log that time as PIC under the "sole manipulator" clause of 61.51, but doesn't become the ACTING PIC.

Instruction to a student is another situation altogether.
Letting a non-rated passenger fly the airplane under the hood doesn't relieve the PIC of his duties, and the non-rated passenger can't log anything.
 
TMetzinger said:
Nothing he said implies what you said.
Click to expand...
Really? Isn't the theory of dual logging in the safety pilot scenario based the parts of 61.51 that talk about 2-pilot =required= operations?

So, if the safety pilot is the acting PIC, is the hooded pilot required or not? And if he's not, how is it a 2-pilot-required opeartion?
 
midlifeflyer said:
Really? Isn't the theory of dual logging in the safety pilot scenario based the parts of 61.51 that talk about 2-pilot =required= operations?

So, if the safety pilot is the acting PIC, is the hooded pilot required or not? And if he's not, how is it a 2-pilot-required opeartion?
Click to expand...

The logging of PIC time by the SAFETY pilot is addressed in two-pilot required operations. The logging of time by the pilot under the hood is addressed by the sole manipulator clause.

The purpose of the flight is for simulated instrument flight, which requires a pilot under the hood, and a safety pilot or instructor.
 
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TMetzinger said:
The purpose of the flight is for simulated instrument flight, which requires a pilot under the hood, and a safety pilot or instructor.
Click to expand...
So you're saying that the pilot under the hood =is= required? That she must have at least a private pilot certificate* and a current medical?

OK. So you're saying that non-pilot is not allowed to be under the hood?

Note that I am not disagreeing with the way the rule has been interpreted by FAA Legal - just that the interpretation does not necessarily follow from the words of the regulation.

*Student pilots and sport pilots can't be required crew in multi-pilot operations. Recreational pilots can only be required crew on airships.
 
midlifeflyer said:
So you're saying that the pilot under the hood =is= required? That she must have at least a private pilot certificate* and a current medical?

OK. So you're saying that non-pilot is not allowed to be under the hood?

Note that I am not disagreeing with the way the rule has been interpreted by FAA Legal - just that the interpretation does not necessarily follow from the words of the regulation.

*Student pilots and sport pilots can't be required crew in multi-pilot operations. Recreational pilots can only be required crew on airships.
Click to expand...

Oy... never mind. We're talking past each other.
 
The acting PIC is pretty easy...
Do you want to ACT and do any other pilots agree to let you act as PIC? If Yes...
Are you current with your medical, rated, current, and endorsed, for all aspects of the flight? If Yes...

Ok, you're the acting PIC. Of course, that doesn't mean you can log any of it.
 
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