Logging Flight Time

[apr911]

Hi all,

Have a question about logging flight time. Until now, Ive been keeping a exclusive separate columns in my log for "Flight Training" and "PIC" such that my "Flight Training" + "PIC" columns equal "Total Flight Time"

Lately, Ive had an instructor signing off on my logs for a club checkout (not training but club mandated flight time with an instructor to various airports for insurance reasons) and using both columns. I have been using the opportunity to get some flight training on different aircraft (Hi-Perf sign off, low-wing intro, complex intro) and I have no problem attributing that time to flight training however, the club has required cross countries to Catalina and Big Bear for insurance purposes and the unique challenges those airports present.

I did the first checkout to Catalina in a Hi-Perf C182 (already was endorsed and cleared to fly it on a previous check) and am planning to do the second checkout to Big Bear in a PA-28 Cherokee (again already cleared to fly on a previous check). I was looking at my log and noticed my instructor listed the time to Catalina as flight training, PIC and XC and based on the experience so far, I expect the instructor will do the same for Big Bear.

Seeing as how that trip was an airport specific check ride, I feel the time should be treated as a check ride and logged as PIC, XC only. I suppose there was some airport specific training involved but not to the extent the entire flight would be logged as a training flight.

Im trying to keep a clean log book (to the extent that that is possible) and also trying to build up to the 50 hrs PIC/XC (no Training/XC) time required for Instrument ratings.

Having it logged as Dual/PIC/XC not only throws off the organization of my book but I feel it will also unfairly remove close to 5 hours of XC time from inclusion in my IFR rating.

This isnt the first instructor/club checkout that I have had logged this way... A few days after getting my ticket punched, I went flying while visiting family and the instructor logged the Club checkout as Training and PIC.

Its only a few hours and in the end it probably wont mean much but as I said, Im trying to keep an orderly log book for as long as I can and this has really thrown it off.

My PPL checkride, BFR checkride and several other club checkouts were all logged solely as PIC time by other instructors so am I wrong to think the club checkouts should fall under the PIC category and not be logged as instructional time? How do you log your time in these scenarios?

Along a similar line of question, the instructor and I took a flight down the coast and into the SAN/NKX Bravo & NZY Delta. This one is even more of a toss up in my mind because the instructor did provide instruction on how to get through the bravo and provide the best sightseeing tour to my passengers by transiting the Bay and which transitions to request from Lindbergh/North Island towers but it was more of a familiarization with the airspace flight than an actual instructional one as I could have made that flight without the instructor. How would you log that flight?

 

[tlglenn]

Any training, such as a club checkout, from a CFI is instructional time. It is also PIC time if you are properly rated for the aircraft. The fact that certain XC time is both instructional time and PIC time still allows you to count it as XC PIC time.

 

[dans2992]

As far as I know, there is no downside to having dual. As mentioned, you can also log it as PIC.

 

[apr911]

Hi Ted,

Thanks for the post.

My PPL checkride, BFR checkride and several other club checkouts were all logged solely as PIC time by other instructors... Should they be logged as Training time as well?

Also, discussing going for my IFR rating with the instructor Im doing the checkouts with, they said Dual XC time cannot be attributed to the IFR requirements only PIC/Solo XC time can be. Does this fall under a different category of "dual" but not really "dual"?

 

[dmspilot]

they said Dual XC time cannot be attributed to the IFR requirements only PIC/Solo XC time can be.

You must have misunderstood. They were probably talking about the dual XC training from when you were a student pilot. These cannot be counted toward the 50-hour XC PIC requirement because obviously they were not PIC.

 

[tlglenn]

The checkride would not be logged as training time. You were being examined by the DPE, not trained.

BFRs and other checkouts are training time.

If a requirement calls for solo time then you must be the only living human occupant in the airplane. Naturally that would be PIC time. It would not be training time since no CFI was on board.

If a requirement calls for PIC time then it shouldn't matter that a particular flight was logged as both training time and PIC time. It's still PIC time.

 

[tlglenn]

You must have misunderstood. They were probably talking about the dual XC training from when you were a student pilot. These cannot be counted toward the 50-hour XC PIC requirement because obviously they were not PIC.

Yeah, that sounds like the source of the misunderstanding. Student pilot time with a CFI can't be logged as PIC time. Only as training time.

 

[James331]

Easy way to think about it (for a PPL or higher).

If the guy sitting in the right seat is a CFI and you're paying him, you log as PIC and DUAL RECIEVED (or "Flight Training" as you put it).

If it's a XC, so be it.

As the others have stated, if it's a DPE/ASI checkride it's PIC as you're not receiving instruction.

 

[apr911]

You must have misunderstood. They were probably talking about the dual XC training from when you were a student pilot. These cannot be counted toward the 50-hour XC PIC requirement because obviously they were not PIC.

Yup that's probably the misunderstanding as far as the XC time goes. I feel less peeved about the "loss" of time now since it's not really lost...

Ted,

Your comments spawned additional questions for me...

If a requirement calls for solo time then you must be the only living human occupant in the airplane. Naturally that would be PIC time. It would not be training time since no CFI was on board.

Aside from PPL, I cant think of another requirement that specifically requires solo time can you? I ask because obviously explicitly requiring solo time would seem to impact hours logged for flights with passengers based on your comment.

The checkride would not be logged as training time. You were being examined by the DPE, not trained.

Again, my question has been sufficiently answered but Im curious as to the distinction you've drawn... If Im up for a club checkride in which instruction is not given, you are just going around the pattern or doing some manuevers for insurance purposes, why does that differ? A DPE is by requirement also a CFI and for the sake of the conversation, lets assume my CFI is also a DPE.

So if they're in the plane evaluating me as a DPE for the FAA, its PIC only
If they're in the plane evaluating me as a CFI for the insurance, Dual/PIC

I think that's probably my biggest source of confusion when it comes to the Dual vs Solo

 

[mkosmo]

Aside from PPL, I cant think of another requirement that specifically requires solo time can you? I ask because obviously explicitly requiring solo time would seem to impact hours logged for flights with passengers based on your comment.

Commercial long xc? That can be solo or dual, but not with pax according to my understanding.

Again, my question has been sufficiently answered but Im curious as to the distinction you've drawn... If Im up for a club checkride in which instruction is not given, you are just going around the pattern or doing some manuevers for insurance purposes, why does that differ? A DPE is by requirement also a CFI and for the sake of the conversation, lets assume my CFI is also a DPE.

So if they're in the plane evaluating me as a DPE for the FAA, its PIC only
If they're in the plane evaluating me as a CFI for the insurance, Dual/PIC

I think that's probably my biggest source of confusion when it comes to the Dual vs Solo

Well, it doesn't have to be logged as dual for a checkout unless insurance requires it to be, but if there's any instruction, it can be without a doubt. In a checkout, there's usually some instruction on the particulars of that airframe and systems, therefore instruction.

But a DPE has nothing to do with a club checkout. A DPE is only a DPE when examining an applicant for the FAA or designing their business cards.

 

[Shawn]

Again, my question has been sufficiently answered but Im curious as to the distinction you've drawn... If Im up for a club checkride in which instruction is not given, you are just going around the pattern or doing some manuevers for insurance purposes, why does that differ? A DPE is by requirement also a CFI and for the sake of the conversation, lets assume my CFI is also a DPE.

So if they're in the plane evaluating me as a DPE for the FAA, its PIC only
If they're in the plane evaluating me as a CFI for the insurance, Dual/PIC

I think that's probably my biggest source of confusion when it comes to the Dual vs Solo

You are confusing a FAA checkride for a club checkout. Yes, a FAA DPE is technically a CFI, but on an official checkride they are merely observers and not providing any dual when going for a rating test. A club checkout is technically not a "checkride" but is sometimes referred to as such. That is a CFI providing dual instruction.

I would think you would want as much dual AND PIC as you can....having both only helps. PIC and Dual are not mutually exclusive of each other. Ever since you got your PPL all your flying is PIC, dual or not.

 

[poadeleted20]

My PPL checkride, BFR checkride and several other club checkouts were all logged solely as PIC time by other instructors... Should they be logged as Training time as well?

All except the practical test, which by regulation is not training. Possible exception would be a "club checkout", which is not required by regulation and thus as far as the FAA is concerned need not be administered by an instructor (although the club's insurance probably says otherwise, in which case it would have to be training signed by an instructor).

Also, discussing going for my IFR rating with the instructor Im doing the checkouts with, they said Dual XC time cannot be attributed to the IFR requirements only PIC/Solo XC time can be. Does this fall under a different category of "dual" but not really "dual"?

"They" are wrong. If they're talking about meeting the 50 hour XC PIC requirement, time with an authorized instructor counts as long as you are rated in the aircraft and operating the flight controls. See 14 CFR 61.51(e) and 14 CFR 61.65(d) for details.

 

[Hank S]

Examiners (like DPEs) are prevented by regulations from providing training during the exam, just as your teachers in school did not teach during tests. Log that as PIC.

Any time you are paying a CFI / CFII to fly with you, it is Dual / Training Received, and is usually also PIC after your PPL checkride, unless you are taking multi engine or seaplane training, transitioning to turbines, are in Actual IMC during Instrument training, etc.

Dual is never wasted, PIC won't be lost and XC ia always nice.

Study hard and fly safe!

 

[poadeleted20]

If a requirement calls for solo time then you must be the only living human occupant in the airplane. Naturally that would be PIC time. It would not be training time since no CFI was on board.

There is no requirement for solo time for the instrument rating -- see 14 CFR 61.65(d).

If a requirement calls for PIC time then it shouldn't matter that a particular flight was logged as both training time and PIC time. It's still PIC time.

...as long as you qualify to log it as PIC time under 14 CFR 61.51(e).

 

[poadeleted20]

Easy way to think about it (for a PPL or higher).

If the guy sitting in the right seat is a CFI and you're paying him, you log as PIC and DUAL RECIEVED (or "Flight Training" as you put it).

Only if you are rated in the aircraft. For example, if you're getting training in a twin but you don't yet have an ME rating, it's only training time, not PIC time, even though you hold a PP certificate or higher.

 

[poadeleted20]

Aside from PPL, I cant think of another requirement that specifically requires solo time can you?

There are several solo requirements for Commercial, including both the long solo XC and some night solo time. However, both can be done as "simulated solo" where the instructor just rides along.

Again, my question has been sufficiently answered but Im curious as to the distinction you've drawn... If Im up for a club checkride in which instruction is not given, you are just going around the pattern or doing some manuevers for insurance purposes, why does that differ?

In most cases, the insurer requires that a club instructor give you some amount of training (either time or events), in which case it must be logged as training in order to satisfy the insurer even if the FAA doesn't care.

A DPE is by requirement also a CFI and for the sake of the conversation, lets assume my CFI is also a DPE.

So if they're in the plane evaluating me as a DPE for the FAA, its PIC only
If they're in the plane evaluating me as a CFI for the insurance, Dual/PIC

Correct.

 

[poadeleted20]

Commercial long xc? That can be solo or dual, but not with pax according to my understanding.

Close. It can be either solo or what most folks call "simulated solo" where the CP trainee is doing all the work, and the instructor is not supposed to be helping.

 

[poadeleted20]

Any time you are paying a CFI / CFII to fly with you, it is Dual / Training Received, and is usually also PIC after your PPL checkride, unless you are taking multi engine or seaplane training, transitioning to turbines, are in Actual IMC during Instrument training, etc.

Correct up to that last part. As long as you're rated in the aircraft, it doesn't matter that you're not rated for the operation -- you can legally log that that as PIC time. See 14 CFR 61.51(e)(1)(i).

 

[James331]

Only if you are rated in the aircraft. For example, if you're getting training in a twin but you don't yet have an ME rating, it's only training time, not PIC time, even though you hold a PP certificate or higher.

Yeah

The CFI also has to have his cert current and be a MEI for you to log it.