Logged my First 1.1 MEL

[t0r0nad0]

Well, this isn't quite as cool as Jason's CJ3 story, but I logged my first 1.1 hours of Multi time - in a King Air 200!

A friend of mine flies King Air 200's and Lear 35's out of Sugar Land, and he got permission to bring me along on the occasional Part 91 leg. So yesterday, he invited me to come with him to drive to Kerrville, TX (about 4 hrs away) to pick up the plane he had dropped off there on Thursday. So we drove out there, preflighted, welcomed the pax, and he took off with me running the checklists and the radios. Once established in the climb, he handed it over to me and I got to fly most of the way back. He took it over again in the descent to dodge some cloud buildups and find some smooth air, then stayed on the controls throughout the landing.

All I can say is that I'm glad he was flying for the takeoff and climb, because I was so far behind that airplane it wasn't even funny! We were climbing through 3500' and my head was still back on the runway! I just kept thinking, wow, there's a lot to do in a twin, and it happens really fast in a King Air! It was a similar feeling to when I flew Ric's 310 from HOU - La Porte, about a 15nm flight! Lots of stuff in a short time...

Anyway, this was a great experience, and it's the first time that I flew a twin that I can put in my logbook.

I know that , but unfortunately I forgot to bring my camera. My friend said that there will be other opportunities, so I'll try to snap some pics then.

 

[jmaynard]

All I can say is that I'm glad he was flying for the takeoff and climb, because I was so far behind that airplane it wasn't even funny!

Brings to mind something John King said his CFI told him when he was getting checked out in his Citation: "You don't have to worry about a midair. You're so far behind the airplane you'll walk up on the scene 10 minutes later and wonder what happened!"

Sounds like a fun time.

 

[Danos]

Sounds like fun!

 

[Ted]

Flying airplanes that truly are "high performance" (not to be confused with something like a 235 hp Dakota) present a whole new set of challenges, simply because of how fast everything is happening. I always enjoy it as a good reminder of just how far I have to go in my flying skills.

Sounds like a great trip, PJ! Make sure to take pictures next time!

 

[colomtnflyer]

Trust me, PJ... I sure understand what you mean! When I first transitioned from the 310 to a KingAir, I was so far behind that it was scary!

But after awhile, when you begin to get used to dealing with that level of performance, it does get easier. It makes flying a piston twin almost like getting back into a 172!

Sounds like you almost had some fun! (lol)

 

[Teller1900]

Nice PJ, congrats!! I can't wait to see pictures from your next flight (cause you better have a camera next time! ).

The 1900 is just a stretched King Air, so I know exactly how you feel! My first leg in the plane was from Manchester, NH to La Guardia. It wasn't until we were through 3,000 feet that I realized I wasn't in the simulator. We were in the food court at La Guardia before my brain had joined the arrival procedure. It's a hell of a lot of fun, though, isn't it! Give it a few more flights and everything will slow down. Before long you'll be transferring fuel while talking on the radios, flying a STAR, and briefing the approach Did you happen to notice the noise the engine makes when you introduce fuel? That's my favorite thing to listen for during engine start...the small explosion followed by rapid acceleration of the turbine...nothing beats it!

 

[Everskyward]

When I first transitioned from the 310 to a KingAir, I was so far behind that it was scary!

Haha, when I transitioned from the 320 to the King Air I felt the same way. I couldn't believe they were going to teach me to fly it in a week, but they did.

 

[t0r0nad0]

Trust me, PJ... I sure understand what you mean! When I first transitioned from the 310 to a KingAir, I was so far behind that it was scary!

But after awhile, when you begin to get used to dealing with that level of performance, it does get easier. It makes flying a piston twin almost like getting back into a 172!

Sounds like you almost had some fun! (lol)

Yup... almost! Lol! It really was a blast. So Ric, when are you going to ask your CP if I can go along on your Part 91 legs? j/k...

Nice PJ, congrats!! I can't wait to see pictures from your next flight (cause you better have a camera next time! ).

I'm still kicking myself for not having it with me this time! The next time will be easier, because it will most likely involve an empty leg. This will give us more of an ability to do thinks like taking pictures. I'd think the owner would get a bit concerned if he were to look up and see his paid pilot taking pictures of the stranger sitting in the co-pilot seat while in flight...

The 1900 is just a stretched King Air, so I know exactly how you feel! My first leg in the plane was from Manchester, NH to La Guardia. It wasn't until we were through 3,000 feet that I realized I wasn't in the simulator. We were in the food court at La Guardia before my brain had joined the arrival procedure. It's a hell of a lot of fun, though, isn't it! Give it a few more flights and everything will slow down. Before long you'll be transferring fuel while talking on the radios, flying a STAR, and briefing the approach

My friend said basically the same thing as you and Ric about being used to the King Air and getting trained on the Lear 35... he said that on his first trip they were 30 nm down the road and his mind was just lining up for takeoff on the runway!

Did you happen to notice the noise the engine makes when you introduce fuel? That's my favorite thing to listen for during engine start...the small explosion followed by rapid acceleration of the turbine...nothing beats it!

You know, I think my head was swimming so much already that I didn't really notice it this time around, though I know exactly what you're talking about. I've heard it as a pax in turboprops and jets - kind of a little "POOF!", followed by the engine spooling up.

When it was time to start up, the pax were aboard on a hot hot ramp, so my friend's hands were just a blur on the startup so that we could get the A/C blowing. I do have some intermittent flashbacks of seeing him checking the load meters on the overhead panel after starting the right engine to wait for the load to get low enough to start the left.

 

[CJones]

Did you happen to notice the noise the engine makes when you introduce fuel? That's my favorite thing to listen for during engine start...the small explosion followed by rapid acceleration of the turbine...nothing beats it!

I LOVE that sound. I got to the point that the cropduster pilots were having me start and taxi their planes up in the morning for loading. We didn't have some sort of fancy computer gizmo to control startup: External battery connected, Prop feathered, power idle, fuel cutoff, igniters on, spool up to 20%, fuel forward and back to ground idle, click click click click click WHOOSH whiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiineeee, check temps, igniters off, signal external battery disconnect. 0* to 700* in a matter of seconds. Nothing like the smell of jet fuel exhaust blowing back into the cockpit at 5am.

 

[Everskyward]

My friend said basically the same thing as you and Ric about being used to the King Air and getting trained on the Lear 35... he said that on his first trip they were 30 nm down the road and his mind was just lining up for takeoff on the runway!

Yeah, and then after flying the Lear 35 for awhile the King Air seems sloooow.

 

[Teller1900]

I LOVE that sound. I got to the point that the cropduster pilots were having me start and taxi their planes up in the morning for loading. We didn't have some sort of fancy computer gizmo to control startup: External battery connected, Prop feathered, power idle, fuel cutoff, igniters on, spool up to 20%, fuel forward and back to ground idle, click click click click click WHOOSH whiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiineeee, check temps, igniters off, signal external battery disconnect. 0* to 700* in a matter of seconds. Nothing like the smell of jet fuel exhaust blowing back into the cockpit at 5am.

That's just about the same as our's (except we don't get external power, much). Bat voltage checked, "beacons on, door lights out/noted, avionics master off, clear on two? Turning two." Starter on, 12% N1 introduce fuel, within 3 seconds FWOOOM light-off, ITTs on the rise, fuel flow, and the unmistakable sound of a turbine accelerating. 44% the secondary nozzles come on and the engine speed and ITT spike. 50%, starter off, gen on, condition lever to high idle, check the voltage across all the buses, wait for the gen load to be less than 50% and do it all over again. I never knew anyone appreciated starting a turbo prop as much as I do

 

[CJones]

That's just about the same as our's (except we don't get external power, much). Bat voltage checked, "beacons on, door lights out/noted, avionics master off, clear on two? Turning two." Starter on, 12% N1 introduce fuel, within 3 seconds FWOOOM light-off, ITTs on the rise, fuel flow, and the unmistakable sound of a turbine accelerating. 44% the secondary nozzles come on and the engine speed and ITT spike. 50%, starter off, gen on, condition lever to high idle, check the voltage across all the buses, wait for the gen load to be less than 50% and do it all over again. I never knew anyone appreciated starting a turbo prop as much as I do

When I first started working there, we didn't have any external battery packs. After a couple good seasons and one case of dead batteries one morning, the boss got a couple of rechargeable battery packs to plug into the external power ports. The pilots a/c runs off of an electric motor which had a tendency to wear the batteries out pretty effectively, so any wear-and-tear we could save on the batteries was good.

To this day, every time I hear the spooling and clicking of a turbine, my ears perk up and I get a little grin.

 

[kmead]

Sounds like fun! My first flight in my father's 310L was a lot different than the Cherokee 6 that I had been flying. I must have been 1 mile out when I responded to my father's 2nd request to put the gear up. It was way ahead of me.

Regards, Kevin

 

[t0r0nad0]

So, I may have run into a potential snag...

My friend let his MEI lapse, but he's a current ATP for AMEL and the Lear 35. We are under the impression that since he's a current ATP for AMEL, we can log my time in the King Air as Dual Received. Someone on another forum is telling me that ATP's can only give dual instruction to pilots who are learning the airplane for a 121/135 op. I found the pertinent reg:

§ 61.167 Privileges.
(a) A person who holds an airline transport pilot certificate is entitled to the same privileges as those afforded a person who holds a commercial pilot certificate with an instrument rating.
(b) An airline transport pilot may instruct—
(1) Other pilots in air transportation service in aircraft of the category, class, and type, as applicable, for which the airline transport pilot is rated and endorse the logbook or other training record of the person to whom training has been given;
(2) In flight simulators, and flight training devices representing the aircraft referenced in paragraph (b)(1) of this section, when instructing under the provisions of this section and endorse the logbook or other training record of the person to whom training has been given;
(3) Only as provided in this section, unless the airline transport pilot also holds a flight instructor certificate, in which case the holder may exercise the instructor privileges of subpart H of part 61 for which he or she is rated; and
(4) In an aircraft, only if the aircraft has functioning dual controls, when instructing under the provisions of this section.
(c) Excluding briefings and debriefings, an airline transport pilot may not instruct in aircraft, flight simulators, and flight training devices under this section—
(1) For more than 8 hours in any 24-consecutive-hour period; or
(2) For more than 36 hours in any 7-consecutive-day period.
(d) An airline transport pilot may not instruct in Category II or Category III operations unless he or she has been trained and successfully tested under Category II or Category III operations, as applicable.

I added the emphasis to the pertinent section here. I'm not seeing anything here that specifically limits it to 121/135 ops or limits it to people only working for the same company. Does anyone have more info or another reference on this? Can I put this in my logbook or do I need to just file this under the "valuable but unloggable experience" category? Captain Ron, you always have good info, do you have any references to FAA legal on this?

 

[gprellwitz]

I think the question comes down to what is "Air Transportation Service"? Does it describe what can be taught or the possible students? If it describes the student and you aren't an "air transportation service" pilot, then I don't think you can log it. OTOH, if it describes what the ATP is teaching, then the time would be loggable, as long as the ATP is teaching "Air Transportation Service." The regulation could certainly be worded better to remove the ambiguity. I checked 14.1 and didn't see an obvious answer in the definitions.

 

[t0r0nad0]

I think the question comes down to what is "Air Transportation Service"? Does it describe what can be taught or the possible students? If it describes the student and you aren't an "air transportation service" pilot, then I don't think you can log it. OTOH, if it describes what the ATP is teaching, then the time would be loggable, as long as the ATP is teaching "Air Transportation Service." The regulation could certainly be worded better to remove the ambiguity. I checked 14.1 and didn't see an obvious answer in the definitions.

Yeah, the ambiguity is the catcher here... I pointed out to the 767 pilot that told me this that it is ambiguous and could go either way, and he said that the "intent" of the rule (which is a term the FAA likes to use) is to allow line captains to provide the IOE training for new FO's without requiring them to have a MEI. However, he was unable to provide me with a reference for this.

The bottom line is, this doesn't really matter from a training perspective. I'm so far off from going after my MEL rating that this 1.1 isn't going to do me much good, especially since it was just normal flight. Besides, if/when I do go for my MEL, I'm sure I'm not going to do it in the bare minimum number of hours required, so this 1.1 will just be extra on top of that. To be honest, I just want to be able to put "BE20" in my logbook because it's a cool thing to have in there, and I want to increase my total time. I still gained the experience, and that's the important thing, but I just may not be able to show it. Just like the .5 I've flown in a Twin Otter while still a student pilot - didn't log it, but a cool experience nonetheless.

 

[nosehair]

To be honest, I just want to be able to put "BE20" in my logbook because it's a cool thing to have in there,

Yeah, it's not loggable, the ATP thing is specific to ATP pilots in Air Carrier Service checking out or giving Company Training to employed multi-engine rated pilots getting Line Training.

Training for a certificate or rating must be from an Authorized Instructor.

You can, however, record the flight, ie, date/from/to/ Aircraft Type,..and just put a zero in the time column to show you are not logging time, but showing a flight in a King Air. It still will have the same effect, and will show that you are not trying to log illegal time.

 

[t0r0nad0]

Yeah, it's not loggable, the ATP thing is specific to ATP pilots in Air Carrier Service checking out or giving Company Training to employed multi-engine rated pilots getting Line Training.

Training for a certificate or rating must be from an Authorized Instructor.

You can, however, record the flight, ie, date/from/to/ Aircraft Type,..and just put a zero in the time column to show you are not logging time, but showing a flight in a King Air. It still will have the same effect, and will show that you are not trying to log illegal time.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but just so that I'm covering all of my bases, do you have a reference for the above statement?

 

[Everskyward]

We are under the impression that since he's a current ATP for AMEL, we can log my time in the King Air as Dual Received.

Sorry, no.

Someone on another forum is telling me that ATP's can only give dual instruction to pilots who are learning the airplane for a 121/135 op.

That is true.

You quoted the pertinent reg. You are not getting instruction in "air transportation service"

I ran into this problem years ago when I was a private pilot. I spent quite a bit of time in a Aero Commander piston twin as an aerial camera operator. Sometimes the pilot would let me fly it en-route. He showed me some engine-out stuff and I eventually could do a reasonable approximation of an ILS to a landing. However, I was a private pilot SEL and he was a multiengine ATP with an expired CFI so I couldn't log any of the time. He told me that I ought to go out an get a multiengine rating but I was too lazy or cheap at the time and I didn't do it for many years. In hindsight that was pretty stupid.

 

[Lance F]

Yeah, and then after flying the Lear 35 for awhile the King Air seems sloooow.

and my Mooney seems reeeeal slow