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saracelica

saracelica

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saracelica
So I was filling out my form for the second checkride attempt.:)

The first time the DPE said "Uh, just 10 hours of solo time" I said "That's what is required...I'd rather not be on my own and practice poorly. It's worth it to me to pay for a CFI to sit in the plane and be sure I'm doing it right.

Anyone else just squeak through with just the minimum # of hours? Like simulated instrument for PPL?

Just curious. I haven't solo-ed since February. Going to be interesting if I get my license next Tuesday. :yikes:
 
10.3 Solo. But I was also 40.0 the day I was signed off for the check ride.
 
Yup, a couple things were just barely enough, can't remember which. I flew lots without a CFI. I owned my aircraft, so there was no reason not to. The only thing that really changed when I got my license was I could take my Mrs. with me.
 
saracelica said:
Anyone else just squeak through with just the minimum # of hours? Like simulated instrument for PPL?
Click to expand...
Based on reviewing a lot of logbooks for IR training, I suspect that most folks going for initial PP-ASEL are close to or at the mins for solo, solo XC, and especially instrument time.

I'm not saying that's good, just a reality driven by increased training requirements over the years and the cost of flying. Back when I got mine, the min was 20 solo with 10 solo XC, and I think we profited from the extra confidence all that solo flying engendered. But folks were ready for their ride with a lot closer to the minimum 20 dual back then, too, and the extra training driven by increased training requirements severely impacts the cost of the training, and leaves less money free for solo practice. I think 25-30 hours of dual was more typical then, compared to 40 or more today.

Might be interesting to plot average solo, dual, and total time to PP-ASEL from 1960 to the present. I'm guessing the data are buried somewhere in the FAA's records, although it would probably require a lot of hand-searching of paper 8710-1's for the earlier data.
 
Sounds like a good project for you Cap'n Ron. You could just start with stats from 2000. Look forward to the report back. :)
 
saracelica said:
The first time the DPE said "Uh, just 10 hours of solo time" I said "That's what is required...I'd rather not be on my own and practice poorly. It's worth it to me to pay for a CFI to sit in the plane and be sure I'm doing it right.
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Just be aware there's a potential downside - too much reliance on an instructor and not enough on yourself as PIC.

There was a substantial school of thought that this is part of what led to the JFK Jr crash.

Not that it's an issue for you - I'm not in a position to know either way. Just something to be aware of.
 
Thanks Mark. That is one of my concerns; fortunately my husband is Instrument rated and so we'll probably do a couple trips together. My CFI is pretty good at being a "passenger" so if he and I go somewhere he'll give me enough rope to not quite hang myself and then save it. I have a good local group of pilots to help me once I'm licensed.
 
Ron Levy said:
Based on reviewing a lot of logbooks for IR training, I suspect that most folks going for initial PP-ASEL are close to or at the mins for solo, solo XC, and especially instrument time.

I'm not saying that's good, just a reality driven by increased training requirements over the years and the cost of flying. Back when I got mine, the min was 20 solo with 10 solo XC, and I think we profited from the extra confidence all that solo flying engendered. But folks were ready for their ride with a lot closer to the minimum 20 dual back then, too, and the extra training driven by increased training requirements severely impacts the cost of the training, and leaves less money free for solo practice. I think 25-30 hours of dual was more typical then, compared to 40 or more today.
<snip>
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This pretty much mirrors my experience. Most of my private pilot applicants have about 60 hrs total. Solo and Solo XC time is often about minimum. Instrument time is almost always about minimum.

While other instructors seem to get students through with less hours I have nearly a 100% pass rate for private pilots. My one failure was a student I signed who's instructor was a DPE candidate, The DPE then administered the check ride to his own student with an FAA examiner in the room. The Student choked on the oral.

I did mine back when 20 dual was the mininum also. I had 60 total and 20 dual. I liked flying solo and my instructor was a bit hard to schedule with.

Brian
CFIIG/ASEL
 
saracelica said:
So I was filling out my form for the second checkride attempt.:)

The first time the DPE said "Uh, just 10 hours of solo time" I said "That's what is required...I'd rather not be on my own and practice poorly. It's worth it to me to pay for a CFI to sit in the plane and be sure I'm doing it right.

Anyone else just squeak through with just the minimum # of hours? Like simulated instrument for PPL?

Just curious. I haven't solo-ed since February. Going to be interesting if I get my license next Tuesday. :yikes:
Click to expand...

This is great news! Congratulations on your checkride.

To answer your question, I am pretty close to the "minimums".

I have:

3.4 hours simulated instrument (3 required)

ONLY 10 Night Landings (10 required)

3.5 Hours Night Dual (3 required)

13.4 Hours Solo (10 required)

5.4 Hours Solo XC (5 required)

7.4 Hours Dual XC (3 required)

4 Solo Takeoffs / Landings at a towered airport (3 required)
 
saracelica said:
Thanks Mark. That is one of my concerns; fortunately my husband is Instrument rated and so we'll probably do a couple trips together. My CFI is pretty good at being a "passenger" so if he and I go somewhere he'll give me enough rope to not quite hang myself and then save it. I have a good local group of pilots to help me once I'm licensed.
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That's great, you can role-play and pretend all you want but there is a substantial psychological difference to working without a safety net, so to speak, at least for some people.
 
saracelica said:
fortunately my husband is Instrument rated and so we'll probably do a couple trips together. My CFI is pretty good at being a "passenger" so if he and I go somewhere he'll give me enough rope to not quite hang myself and then save it. I have a good local group of pilots to help me once I'm licensed.
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None of that creates real personal self-reliability (self-confidence), and all of it is denial.
 
Despite what I wrote earlier, which I believe to be true, there really isn't anything wrong with not wanting to fly solo or as PIC. Sometimes I think we have a tendency to project our own goals onto other people. If, after you get your private, you decide that you feel more comfortable always flying with someone else that's not a problem as long as you are able to find someone to go with you. Remember that you are doing it for fun and it is supposed to be enjoyable, not something you stress out over all the time. :)
 
Everskyward said:
Despite what I wrote earlier, which I believe to be true, there really isn't anything wrong with not wanting to fly solo or as PIC. Sometimes I think we have a tendency to project our own goals onto other people. If, after you get your private, you decide that you feel more comfortable always flying with someone else that's not a problem as long as you are able to find someone to go with you. Remember that you are doing it for fun and it is supposed to be enjoyable, not something you stress out over all the time. :)
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While that's true in the long run, confidence in your own abilities is very important for success on the PP practical test, and solo time helps build that confidence in ways that no amount of flying with even a zip-lip instructor can do.
 
Everskyward said:
That's great, you can role-play and pretend all you want but there is a substantial psychological difference to working without a safety net, so to speak, at least for some people.
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Exactly. That's the issue. All the play-acting in the world doesn't remove the internal knowledge that there is someone else in the airplane who can come to your rescue if things go to pieces.
 
Ron Levy said:
While that's true in the long run, confidence in your own abilities is very important for success on the PP practical test, and solo time helps build that confidence in ways that no amount of flying with even a zip-lip instructor can do.
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For the purposes of getting through the private, yes, but my point was that not everyone has the long-term goal of flying solo or as PIC and that shouldn't be considered a deficiency on their part because they are doing it for their own satisfaction. Obviously it's different if they want to get some utility out of it or they're planning a career, but not everyone has those goals. Some people eventually develop the self-confidence and some don't, but I would rather not see people forced in way over their heads because of peer pressure or the idea that this is something they need to do. The thing is, apprehension and anxiety during solo are normal but some people have a harder time getting over these feelings than others and some are not entertained in the least by feeling that way.
 
Ron Levy said:
While that's true in the long run, confidence in your own abilities is very important for success on the PP practical test, and solo time helps build that confidence in ways that no amount of flying with even a zip-lip instructor can do.
Click to expand...

Absolutely. Complete responsibility cannot be simualted.

everskyward said:
For the purposes of getting through the private, yes, but my point was that not everyone has the long-term goal of flying solo or as PIC and that shouldn't be considered a deficiency on their part because they are doing it for their own satisfaction. Obviously it's different if they want to get some utility out of it or they're planning a career, but not everyone has those goals. Some people eventually develop the self-confidence and some don't, but I would rather not see people forced in way over their heads because of peer pressure or the idea that this is something they need to do. The thing is, apprehension and anxiety during solo are normal but some people have a harder time getting over these feelings than others and some are not entertained in the least by feeling that way.
Click to expand...

If flying solo isn't a goal, why bother with the PP cert?
 
I guess it depends on why a student doesn't have a lot of solo time. If it's money, and wanting to finish up, but no lack of PIC ability, that's one thing. If it's fear of PIC responsibility, that's another, and I'd want to work on it.

By 10 hours solo I think most of my fear in that regard was resolved... and I went to the checkride with WAY more than I needed (something like 100 hours solo)... but everyone is different. I don't think anyone should try to pass the checkride without being fairly confident alone in an airplane.
 
The reason I am getting my PPL is because my husband has his license and he likes going places. Started out with a "pinch hitter" thing we have with my club (Got to learn the basics of flight in case hubby becomes ill/unable to fly - including landings) After that was over the CFI (who is a friend of the family) suggested getting the license. So I figured I'd try it and found to be pretty good - it's the polishing of the airwork that is taking the most time. <sigh> I just want to feel like I can help my husband out if we go on a trip...by at least doing the trip back home. He never would've let me land the plane if all I had was my "Pitch Hitter" stuff. I don't forsee me just getting up one day and saying "Off to the airport I'm going to <insert destination>" If I want to go somewhere I'd hope he'd want to go. I've considered giving up the pursuit of the license but then where would I be - 100 hours into flight training with nothing to show for it. I definetly don't want the "A.I.D.S" to come into play. (Airplane indused divorce syndrome)
 
saracelica said:
100 hours into flight training with nothing to show for it.
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Well, you've accomplished a lot in those 100 hours, including solo and solo XC, so one can hardly say you have "nothing to show for it." Think instead that the glass is 95% full.;)
 
saracelica said:
The reason I am getting my PPL is because my husband has his license and he likes going places. Started out with a "pinch hitter" thing we have with my club (Got to learn the basics of flight in case hubby becomes ill/unable to fly - including landings) After that was over the CFI (who is a friend of the family) suggested getting the license. So I figured I'd try it and found to be pretty good - it's the polishing of the airwork that is taking the most time. <sigh> I just want to feel like I can help my husband out if we go on a trip...by at least doing the trip back home. He never would've let me land the plane if all I had was my "Pitch Hitter" stuff. I don't forsee me just getting up one day and saying "Off to the airport I'm going to <insert destination>" If I want to go somewhere I'd hope he'd want to go. I've considered giving up the pursuit of the license but then where would I be - 100 hours into flight training with nothing to show for it. I definetly don't want the "A.I.D.S" to come into play. (Airplane indused divorce syndrome)
Click to expand...
Good luck on the checkride Tuesday. You'll need to convince the examiner that you're ready to fly alone even if you never intend to do so. No matter what happens, I agree with Ron in that your glass is 95% full.
 
Think of it as another opportunity to role-play. Big smile and be confident for the examiner. Actually much of flying is role-playing, especially if there are other people involved.
 
saracelica said:
The reason I am getting my PPL is because my husband has his license and he likes going places. Started out with a "pinch hitter" thing we have with my club (Got to learn the basics of flight in case hubby becomes ill/unable to fly - including landings) After that was over the CFI (who is a friend of the family) suggested getting the license. So I figured I'd try it and found to be pretty good - it's the polishing of the airwork that is taking the most time. <sigh> I just want to feel like I can help my husband out if we go on a trip...by at least doing the trip back home. He never would've let me land the plane if all I had was my "Pitch Hitter" stuff. I don't forsee me just getting up one day and saying "Off to the airport I'm going to <insert destination>" If I want to go somewhere I'd hope he'd want to go. I've considered giving up the pursuit of the license but then where would I be - 100 hours into flight training with nothing to show for it. I definetly don't want the "A.I.D.S" to come into play. (Airplane indused divorce syndrome)
Click to expand...

This is similar to how I felt. I had almost 90 hours and no money to continue, but thought: "why stop now with nothing to show for it?"
 
So I'm taking a break from this flying thing. My CFI decided that Monday would be better to do the checkride and failed it once again. Just didn't have it in me. :( I was tired from being up since 4am and had a bad day at work. Told my CFI it wasn't a good idea but he said another hour or whatever of flying wouldn't have helped.

So off for at least a month. Not sure if I'll be around the boards much in that time. It was suggested to not think about aviation and in a month go flying again and see if I think it's still fun.
 
saracelica said:
So I'm taking a break from this flying thing. My CFI decided that Monday would be better to do the checkride and failed it once again. Just didn't have it in me. :( I was tired from being up since 4am and had a bad day at work. Told my CFI it wasn't a good idea but he said another hour or whatever of flying wouldn't have helped.
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I think you need both a smarter instructor and a bit more assertiveness on your own part, because you knew the right answer but still let your instructor bully you into doing what you knew was the wrong thing.
 
saracelica said:
So I'm taking a break from this flying thing. My CFI decided that Monday would be better to do the checkride and failed it once again. Just didn't have it in me. :( I was tired from being up since 4am and had a bad day at work. Told my CFI it wasn't a good idea but he said another hour or whatever of flying wouldn't have helped.

So off for at least a month. Not sure if I'll be around the boards much in that time. It was suggested to not think about aviation and in a month go flying again and see if I think it's still fun.
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Sara,

I am sorry to hear this. If there is anything I can do, let me know.
 
If your CFI signed you off, you must be really close. I hope you decide to try again. :)
 
Sorry it didn't work out for you. :(

saracelica said:
It was suggested to not think about aviation and in a month go flying again and see if I think it's still fun.
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That's probably good advice but what do YOU think should do? There's nothing wrong with getting suggestions and advice from other people but in the end you need to make up your own mind.
 
I'm going to make up my own mind in these next two weeks. My CFI wasn't all that confident in my success but he figured he'd give me my shot though. At least the first time I took the test (when I bullied the CFI into the sign off) I realized I wasn't ready afterwards and walked away with "Holy crap this is going to take work, but okay let's do this."

This time my CFI says "We're not flying today you're taking the checkride." I was like "why so I can fail today?...I'm not clear on the short field landings and was hoping to touch on those today" He said "you either can do it or you can't."

So alas two weeks off and hopefully my licensed husband and I can go do a fly in somewhere and he lets me do something on the flight to satisfy the whole reason I did this training or I'll have to think about this again. I suppose if he does let me do enough o the trip to the fly in then I'd be done with training but it's hard to ponder that since I know how much money I spent on this project. Would really like to finish it.
 
saracelica said:
I'm going to make up my own mind in these next two weeks. My CFI wasn't all that confident in my success but he figured he'd give me my shot though. At least the first time I took the test (when I bullied the CFI into the sign off) I realized I wasn't ready afterwards and walked away with "Holy crap this is going to take work, but okay let's do this."

This time my CFI says "We're not flying today you're taking the checkride." I was like "why so I can fail today?...I'm not clear on the short field landings and was hoping to touch on those today" He said "you either can do it or you can't."

So alas two weeks off and hopefully my licensed husband and I can go do a fly in somewhere and he lets me do something on the flight to satisfy the whole reason I did this training or I'll have to think about this again. I suppose if he does let me do enough o the trip to the fly in then I'd be done with training but it's hard to ponder that since I know how much money I spent on this project. Would really like to finish it.
Click to expand...

Short field landings were ALWAYS hard for me. I worked on them from the day I solo'd until the day of my checkride. My CFI has a policy that each and every landing after you solo as his student will be either a short field landing or a soft field landing - simply because they are more complicated. I came to love / hate this policy.... and though my last lesson with him they were "perfect" - trust me, they were soooo much less than perfect on my checkride. I will keep working on them actively I think - because CA has some "neato" little fields which are challenging and it would be good to know I can land there.
 
Nearly every one of my take offs and landings have been max performance. I think it's good to stay on top of the game.
 
The time/place when the short/soft field stuff will really save your bacon is the day the engine quits and you're not over one of those "neato" little fields... Short probably more than soft...
 
Right. And this is why I should continue. Short requires 55 knots on final which is slow and a challenge..... it will be good to keep up the skills I've learned. With passengers, however, I'll probably be happy with a "normal" landing.
 
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