Logbook question

Tristar

Tristar

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Tristar
I do a fair amount of flight instructing so filling out my logbook gets exhuasting. I was curious if it goes against any rule or "good idea" to total them up once or twice a month and put it in as a lump sum. I don't deal with too many different types of aircraft so this could help save time. I was pretty sure you could but wanted to double check.
 
You can but,
I would do something just to make it less painful. I usually log all my commercial flying in a month followed by all my flight instruction. That at least takes the pain of mix matching all of those dates together at the end of the month. I would try and keep things nice and clean, not only for career aspiration purposes , but to cover yours in case of a situation.

I know many pilots that log the bare minimum to show currency. But when it comes to flight instruction I have always followed the rule that your entries should match what you put in your students logbook (at least the basic stuff).
 
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ELECTRONIC LOGGING!!

Does all the totaling, yada, yada, yada.

Write as many endorsements, notes, etc. in text field.

Store in backed up locale (Google Docs is free)
 
i always just filled out my logbook at the same time i filled out the students, that way i didn't get behind and could use my logbook as a backup record of what i did with each student.
 
tonycondon said:
i always just filled out my logbook at the same time i filled out the students, that way i didn't get behind and could use my logbook as a backup record of what i did with each student.
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Keeping track of what you did with each student could be important if the student comes to grief and his logbook doesn't survive, or if there's ever any question about what you did and didn't cover.

I think Tony's idea is a good one. I've been thinking about a system that would let me type in the data and generate a label for a student logbook - but that wastes a lot of space. I need to see if Avery makes a label strip that's about 6" by 1/2", because that could be pasted into a logbook without much trouble.

Ideally, there'd be an electronic logbook system that the school could use and it would generate a printed record to be signed by the student and instructor.
 
TMetzinger said:
Keeping track of what you did with each student could be important if the student comes to grief and his logbook doesn't survive, or if there's ever any question about what you did and didn't cover.

I think Tony's idea is a good one. I've been thinking about a system that would let me type in the data and generate a label for a student logbook - but that wastes a lot of space. I need to see if Avery makes a label strip that's about 6" by 1/2", because that could be pasted into a logbook without much trouble.

Ideally, there'd be an electronic logbook system that the school could use and it would generate a printed record to be signed by the student and instructor.
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You could use Zululog...it does e-signatures, and IIRC, they have been blessed by the FAA, so no need for paper at all. It includes a section for you to request access to student's logbooks (so you can enter stuff and do endorsements).

Note: I don't work for them at all, I swear!
 
JeffDG said:
You could use Zululog...it does e-signatures, and IIRC, they have been blessed by the FAA, so no need for paper at all. It includes a section for you to request access to student's logbooks (so you can enter stuff and do endorsements).

Note: I don't work for them at all, I swear!
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It's not bad, but I don't know if they've been "blessed" by the FAA - there's a statement showing their compliance with the AC on electronic signatures, but any well designed database system could do that as well.

I would prefer an option for a standalone system.
 
Tristar said:
I do a fair amount of flight instructing so filling out my logbook gets exhuasting. I was curious if it goes against any rule or "good idea" to total them up once or twice a month and put it in as a lump sum. I don't deal with too many different types of aircraft so this could help save time. I was pretty sure you could but wanted to double check.
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I know pilots at both extremes of the logging spectrum. Some don't log anything and ask for a computer printout from the company if they need to prove currency. Others log every leg separately. If you say you are filling out your log once or twice a month you must be doing it from some other document. You could just save these documents if you are worried about having a record of what you did with a student and only log the totals. You could also use your time sitting around on Mondays to fill out your logbook. :)
 
when it comes to logging the flights, the far is pretty specific. if i were you i'd go with the online database. if you're changing planes hourly, i consider that needing to be logged as a different flight, however if you're flying with 5 students in teh same tail # all day, you could probably log that all as 1...

in the end its all up to you. just read the FAR and do what you think fits.
 
Tristar said:
I do a fair amount of flight instructing so filling out my logbook gets exhuasting. I was curious if it goes against any rule or "good idea" to total them up once or twice a month and put it in as a lump sum.
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==============================
61.51 (b) Logbook entries. For the purposes of meeting the requirements of paragraph (a) of this section, each person must enter the following information for each flight or lesson logged:
==============================

I don't think the "each flight" language is susceptible of interpretation as authorizing bulk entries.
 
midlifeflyer said:
==============================
61.51 (b) Logbook entries. For the purposes of meeting the requirements of paragraph (a) of this section, each person must enter the following information for each flight or lesson logged:
==============================

I don't think the "each flight" language is susceptible of interpretation as authorizing bulk entries.
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"Each flight" must be logged.

That means 5 flights can be entered into a log at the same occasion. There is no requirement imposed as to when "each flight" must be logged.
 
midlifeflyer said:
==============================
61.51 (b) Logbook entries. For the purposes of meeting the requirements of paragraph (a) of this section, each person must enter the following information for each flight or lesson logged:
==============================

I don't think the "each flight" language is susceptible of interpretation as authorizing bulk entries.
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She is asking about her own logbook not the student's, but on further consideration I see what you mean. If she is using the time to meet the hour requirements for another certificate or rating it looks like each flight needs to be logged. The people I am thinking about aren't building time for any future certificate or rating.
 
As aggravating as it is, I'd stay with the flight-by-flight (multiple x/c legs is okay) paper logbook. If you ever have a chance to work overseas, and have to document your experience, the paper logbooks come in handy. They really really like this in Asia, especially. The time spent will be worth the trouble one day.
 
Tristar said:
I do a fair amount of flight instructing so filling out my logbook gets exhuasting. I was curious if it goes against any rule or "good idea" to total them up once or twice a month and put it in as a lump sum. I don't deal with too many different types of aircraft so this could help save time. I was pretty sure you could but wanted to double check.
Click to expand...

I have my late father's logbooks.. His last flying job was for a precursor of Enron, Houston Pipeline Company, back in the 80's. He flew the one aircraft, and the company kept meticulous records of the time, and he was the only pilot for that aircraft, so he simply tallied his hours at the end of the month and made a single monthly line entry in the log.

Its your logbook, you can do what you want.
 
Tristar said:
I do a fair amount of flight instructing so filling out my logbook gets exhuasting. I was curious if it goes against any rule or "good idea" to total them up once or twice a month and put it in as a lump sum. I don't deal with too many different types of aircraft so this could help save time. I was pretty sure you could but wanted to double check.
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If you're going to track and file once a month.. you had to track it somewhere... just put it in the book the first time.

I do not know if "monthly summations" for totalling up flights can count toward accumulated hours for the next rating? I'm sure it can.. as the log book only needs to record the horus required for the rating and the training received??
 
I can be a little more clear but I think you guys answered my questions. It seems safer to keep doing it the way I've been doing it.

I am working towards my ATP (slowly but surely) and of course some day I may move up in the world so it'd be nice to have a clear cut indication of what I've been doing. We do keep logs of our flights according instructor/airplane/student/on what day which is why I can go back a month later and log it. I usually don't log it after each flight. The typical reason is the fact that I don't have time between flights. Many are back to back. Plus, it gives me something to do on slow days. I never saw any of my instructors log it as a lump sum so I never did either. Probably a "monkey see, monkey do" symptom. Someone brought the idea to my attention the other day which is why I thought I'd ask your thoughts on it.
 
I have a pad that I write on for every flight including data about student perfomance, maneuvers, etc... When the top sheet is full, it comes off, and I take it home with me and hopefully log it all that evening - like I did tonight.

Ryan
 
RyanShort1 said:
I have a pad that I write on for every flight including data about student perfomance, maneuvers, etc... When the top sheet is full, it comes off, and I take it home with me and hopefully log it all that evening - like I did tonight.

Ryan
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I do something somewhat like that. I send myself an email from my iphone and then once I have more than 5 emails from myself I just go and log it.

I'm not an instructor so 5 emails could take a week or two
 
dmccormack said:
"Each flight" must be logged.

That means 5 flights can be entered into a log at the same occasion. There is no requirement imposed as to when "each flight" must be logged.
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I agree.

Maybe I misread the question - I thought the question was asking whether a one-line item with, for example

Date: 11/1/2010 - 11/30/2010
Total Flight Time - 23.8
etc...

was acceptable.
 
dmccormack said:
Oh.... Isn't it? :ihih:




:cornut:
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The fact that the FAA has left it to pilots to define what a "flight" is (they issued an interpretation earlier this year to that effect with respect to "repositioning flights"), it may well be that you could define the month of November 2010, and all the takeoffs and landings in that month, as a "flight".
 
I got hired at a regional with 3 yrs worth of monthly flight total lines in my logbook.

Not a blink of the eye from the interviewer.

All black pen in the book is more important IMHO as far as getting through interviews.

135 & 121 currency is proved by company files. No need to enter anything in the book from the FAA in my case.

I am guessing you flight school's records count the same :dunno:
 
Eamon said:
All black pen in the book is more important IMHO as far as getting through interviews.
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How serious are they about this? I have about 2 or 3 entries back in my student pilot days (that are in blue) and I really don't want to rip the pages out and go find the signatures again because I don't live anywhere close to where I used to train
 
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I'm gonna give any interviewer the electronic logbook - all black printing.

I can't imagine why they care about the color of the ink used - I'd like to hear the reasoning.
 
TMetzinger said:
I'm gonna give any interviewer the electronic logbook - all black printing.

I can't imagine why they care about the color of the ink used - I'd like to hear the reasoning.
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probably some rule.

example: in Brazil, you can't sign a contract with anything but a blue pen or else the contract is not valid. (maybe it was black but I'm pretty sure it's blue)
 
Eamon said:
135 & 121 currency is proved by company files. No need to enter anything in the book from the FAA in my case.
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That's true. I don't take my logbook to training and the only signoffs I have in it in the past 11 years is from my acro instructor.
 
Eamon said:
I got hired at a regional with 3 yrs worth of monthly flight total lines in my logbook.

Not a blink of the eye from the interviewer.

All black pen in the book is more important IMHO as far as getting through interviews.

135 & 121 currency is proved by company files. No need to enter anything in the book from the FAA in my case.

I am guessing you flight school's records count the same :dunno:
Click to expand...

some places still want to see paper logbooks that back up digital but not very many...most major airlines will happily except the logbookpro stuff as long as it is bound.
 
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I don't log every flight as it happens, but I do keep notes on each flight (including dates, times, events, etc), and then every few weeks, log each flight made during that period based on my notes.
 
TMetzinger said:
I'm gonna give any interviewer the electronic logbook - all black printing.

I can't imagine why they care about the color of the ink used - I'd like to hear the reasoning.
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Seriously...if airlines are rejecting applicants based on the colour of ink in their logbook, they're rejecting good people for no good reason...guess that explains part of the reason airlines are the pillars of financial health that they are.
 
JeffDG said:
Seriously...if airlines are rejecting applicants based on the colour of ink in their logbook, they're rejecting good people for no good reason...guess that explains part of the reason airlines are the pillars of financial health that they are.
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Probably shows that you are too much of a nonconformist. I guess they wouldn't have liked the purple and green I used when I was (much) younger. Hmmm, no wonder I'm not working for an airline....
 
JeffDG said:
Seriously...if airlines are rejecting applicants based on the colour of ink in their logbook, they're rejecting good people for no good reason...guess that explains part of the reason airlines are the pillars of financial health that they are.
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True, but back in the 80s BLUE BLACK or BLUE-BLACK ink was acceptable on all Air Force forms.

When I switched to the Army in 1990, I had to give away a whole mess of BLUE ink SkilCraft pens.

Army was BLACK INK ONLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
dmccormack said:
True, but back in the 80s BLUE BLACK or BLUE-BLACK ink was acceptable on all Air Force forms.

When I switched to the Army in 1990, I had to give away a whole mess of BLUE ink SkilCraft pens.

Army was BLACK INK ONLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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But, did the Army give you a BCD because you'd filled out some old AF forms in blue? That's the analogy here...airlines refusing to hire you because you chose to put your dual lessons in blue, and your solo flights in black while you were a student pilot.
 
JeffDG said:
But, did the Army give you a BCD because you'd filled out some old AF forms in blue? That's the analogy here...airlines refusing to hire you because you chose to put your dual lessons in blue, and your solo flights in black while you were a student pilot.
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Oh, it's inane -- no doubt!
 
elmetal said:
probably some rule.
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more likely some nonsense someone thought was a rule.

example: in Brazil, you can't sign a contract with anything but a blue pen or else the contract is not valid. (maybe it was black but I'm pretty sure it's blue)
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These things have come full circle. To the extend there were rules (there were in some states in the US), originally it was black - because early copiers couldn't see blue very well and a blue ink signature would many times look like no signature at all.

Fast forward and we got to a point where copying is so good that you can't tell a B&W copy from a B&W original - suddenly blue ink becomes all the rage.

Of course, now, not only is color copying both high quality and inexpensive, but so are scanners and color printers. Even more, we're in the age of UETA and ESIGN where, in most ceases legally and in many cases by actual practice, electronic signatures (including copies and scans of signatures) are treated the same as originals.

But the habit lingers on, with some folks convinced it's a rule even when it isn't (there probably are a few holdover rules from ancient times).

Of course, being a bit anal could explain it also.
 
midlifeflyer said:
more likely some nonsense someone thought was a rule.

These things have come full circle. To the extend there were rules (there were in some states in the US), originally it was black - because early copiers couldn't see blue very well and a blue ink signature would many times look like no signature at all.

Fast forward and we got to a point where copying is so good that you can't tell a B&W copy from a B&W original - suddenly blue ink becomes all the rage.

Of course, now, not only is color copying both high quality and inexpensive, but so are scanners and color printers. Even more, we're in the age of UETA and ESIGN where, in most ceases legally and in many cases by actual practice, electronic signatures (including copies and scans of signatures) are treated the same as originals.

But the habit lingers on, with some folks convinced it's a rule even when it isn't (there probably are a few holdover rules from ancient times).

Of course, being a bit anal could explain it also.
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that just about covers it. anyone I've talked to who is 35 or less (pilots I mean) will say, who cares what color it is excep they all say: I'd still do it in black so you don't **** of the DPE, or so your next employer doesn't question the validity of your logbook.

I mean come on. I can write whatever I want in the logbook I can theoretically make up times, and the thing people linger on is the damn color of the pen?

get real
 
I would point out that as this all applies to pilot logbooks, the relevant regulation merely says "in a manner acceptable to the Administrator." So, just what is "a manner acceptable to the Administrator"? Unfortunately, there is no AC or other official guidance on the subject, but we know from experience that a standard logbook as published by any number of sources filled out in ink is one such manner. What color ink? Well, in addition to blue and black, I have some green ink in an early logbook (when I was going through my "green period" of individuality in penmanship), and the FAA said nothing about that when they reviewed my logbooks for Commercial in 1972, CFI in 1973, and ATP in 1995, so ink color doesn't appear to matter to the FAA.

Of course, if you really want to know for sure, you can ask the Chief Counsel and get an answer back in four months or so, but I don't think this one is worth it.
 
Most of my logbook is in pencil (except the endorsements). Does this mean I need to go back and write over it in pen?

John
 
Rotor&Wing said:
So where is it written that a pilot's logbook cannot be in pencil?
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Where is it written that it is? OTOH, we know for sure that ink is OK because it has been accepted that way repeatedly by the FAA. While it's possible that some person in the FAA may accept pencil, we have no way of knowing for sure that all FAA offices and personnel will do so. Further, legal documents in an erasable form such as pencil are generally unacceptable to courts and other agencies as official records due to their frangibility and ease of alteration.

Like I said, put it in ink "...if you want to be sure the FAA will accept it." [emphasis added]
 
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