Logbook entry for overhauled engine

Discussion in 'Maintenance Bay' started by NealRomeoGolf, Aug 31, 2020.

  1. NealRomeoGolf

    NealRomeoGolf En-Route

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2016
    Messages:
    3,545
    Location:
    Illinois

    Display name:
    NRG
    I feel like this is a dumb question.....but then I feel that most times I post a question.

    What is the required entries to be in the logs when you reinstall an engine that has been overhauled? Is it just a simple entry that can say "reinstalled engine SN# XXX after overhaul. See workorder #xxx at XXX company." Or is it required for the logs to contain everything that happened with the overhaul?

    I am asking what is required....not how you would like to see it.
     
    edo2000 likes this.
  2. Pilot Steve

    Pilot Steve Pre-takeoff checklist

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2020
    Messages:
    113
    Location:
    Raleigh, NC

    Display name:
    Pilot Steve
    I don't know what is required but I do know my logbook entries were extensive following my last overhaul five years ago. And thank goodness they were.

    The engine logbook entry lists all the serial numbers and identification of all major parts used in the overhaul. Just this year there was an AD out but since I had the detail from the overhaul I did not have to have the crankshaft pulled and inspected.

    Over the last five years I'v had to go back to that entry probably 10 times for specific information from the overhaul. So I'm a big fan of more, not less.

    Steve
     
    Howard Wilson and edo2000 like this.
  3. Bell206

    Bell206 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2017
    Messages:
    5,832

    Display name:
    Bell206
    Depends. Who did the overhaul, you or a separate shop? In what format is the overhaul work written up and signed? Is there a separate engine removal write-up?
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2020
  4. RyanB

    RyanB Super Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2010
    Messages:
    14,519
    Location:
    Chattanooga, TN

    Display name:
    Ryan
    It will vary somewhat depending on the installer and who signs off on it, but generally it will be something like:

    “Engine Major Overhaul...Overhaul completed IAW Continental / Lycoming Overhaul Manuals and Table of Limits. Engine removed, disassembled, parts replaced as necessary and re-installed with new gaskets, nuts, bolts, O rings, bearings.............................. Performed Run-up and all ADs complied with etc.”

    The good entries will describe everything done during the overhaul process.
     
    edo2000 likes this.
  5. NordicDave

    NordicDave Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Oct 31, 2015
    Messages:
    2,351
    Location:
    Monterey County

    Display name:
    NordicDave
    Be sure the logs state removal of the prop and engine first before the reinstallation. Frequently overlooked, ask for the work order from the overhauler. It has detail that can prove helpful as part of the aircraft's records.
     
  6. schmookeeg

    schmookeeg En-Route

    Joined:
    Nov 6, 2008
    Messages:
    3,162
    Location:
    Alameda, CA

    Display name:
    Mike Brannigan
    The engine log entry should be extensive and discuss incorporated parts, SBs, ADs, etc. You didn't ask that though. :)

    For hanging the above engine on the airframe, the airframe log entry will just be "removed and reinstalled engine" if that's all you did. The "while we're here's" tend to pile up near an engine R&R event, and at the very least, I'm used to inspecting/testing/repainting the engine mount, so an R&R entry for that if you did that (then new mounts... then any firewall repairs... then then then)
     
    edo2000 likes this.
  7. dmspilot

    dmspilot En-Route

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2006
    Messages:
    4,940

    Display name:
    Display name:
    The reference to the work order is one way of complying with Appendix B to Part 43. That requirement is in addition to Section 43.9 which requires (among other items) "a description (or reference to data acceptable to the Administrator) of work performed." I would guess that "overhauled engine" is not an adequate description.
     
  8. RyanB

    RyanB Super Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2010
    Messages:
    14,519
    Location:
    Chattanooga, TN

    Display name:
    Ryan
    It wouldn’t be... Appendix B - (b)(4) gives a sample of what should be listed, among other things.
     
    edo2000 likes this.
  9. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    34,736

    Display name:
    Tom-D
    Follow the FARS

    You need a statement stating the S/N of the removed and the installed engine, This may be the same entry. It should also include the engine Total Time of both engines

    There is no requirement to make any statement stating what was completed during the overhaul.

    This engine complies to 43.2 as (________) is all that it needs to say.
    §43.2 Records of overhaul and rebuilding.
    remember the less you say, is all they can hold you to.

    also remember the paper the overhauler gave you becomes records.

    91.417 Maintenance records.
    (a) Except for work performed in accordance with §§91.411 and 91.413, each registered owner or operator shall keep the following records for the periods specified in paragraph (b) of this section:
     
  10. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2016
    Messages:
    2,244
    Location:
    Tombstone

    Display name:
    Doc Holliday
    [​IMG]
     
  11. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    34,736

    Display name:
    Tom-D
    this should be in a engine log not in the A/F records.

    And all it should say is simply "this engine was overhauled"
     
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2020
  12. NealRomeoGolf

    NealRomeoGolf En-Route

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2016
    Messages:
    3,545
    Location:
    Illinois

    Display name:
    NRG
    Ok, let's get specific...

    In the engine log, Western Skyways put in an entry giving engine make, model, serial number, work order number, date, warranty number, warranty start date, manual number. Then stated about what accessories were reman'd to factory new. States engine was run in test cell. Then lists part names and numbers of accessories overhauled - mags, valves, starter...etc.

    Then under that entry, the A&P that installed the engine makes an entry that the engine was installed on XXX airframe of XXX serial number, installed prop and governor and alternator, listing parts and serials. Says put oil in it and ran to check for leaks.

    I find no documentation for what was overhauled.

    A: are the entries sufficient? (and yes, there are entries in the airframe log too)
    B: I assume I have to call Western Skyways to find out what they did.

    Underlying purpose: I need to know what type of jugs are on this engine. Specifically wondering about nickel. Is there a way to tell from the outside?
     
  13. Doc Holliday

    Doc Holliday Pattern Altitude

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2016
    Messages:
    2,244
    Location:
    Tombstone

    Display name:
    Doc Holliday
    You can call Western Airways and get the copies of the work order. Should have any information you are looking for.
     
    RyanB likes this.
  14. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    34,736

    Display name:
    Tom-D
    yes, the overhaul is implied, ( it maybe in the work order)many shops do it this way.

    Apparently they simply overhauled the cylinders, no replacement = no cylinders replaced.
     
  15. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    34,736

    Display name:
    Tom-D
    doesn't matter the requirement is the same.
     
  16. Bell206

    Bell206 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2017
    Messages:
    5,832

    Display name:
    Bell206
    Yes, provided the actual write ups meet the requirements of Part 43.
    I surprised they didn't give you a copy of their work order. This will give you the details. Request a copy.
    Was this a turnkey type overhaul since you seem to be "removed" from the process? Curious why the type cylinders is important at this stage?
     
  17. Bell206

    Bell206 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2017
    Messages:
    5,832

    Display name:
    Bell206
    You don't even know why I asked the questions yet you know the answer.:rolleyes:
     
    Doc Holliday likes this.
  18. NealRomeoGolf

    NealRomeoGolf En-Route

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2016
    Messages:
    3,545
    Location:
    Illinois

    Display name:
    NRG
    I just bought this plane 2 months ago. Did my first oil analysis and they mentioned elevated nickel. They want to know if I have nickel cylinders. So I tore deeper into the logs and found no documentation of what jugs were used. I feel stupid for not thinking about this during pre-buy, but here we are.

    This was a Western Skyways "gold seal" overhaul. I will call them tomorrow.
     
  19. Bell206

    Bell206 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2017
    Messages:
    5,832

    Display name:
    Bell206
    The devil in the details. This all makes a lot more sense now as your original post was a bit "unique" hence my follow up questions. Perhaps in the future cut to the chase with the problem and we can save you some typing. ;)

    And not a big deal you didn't ask what type cylinders on a pre-buy. Good luck.
     
  20. NealRomeoGolf

    NealRomeoGolf En-Route

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2016
    Messages:
    3,545
    Location:
    Illinois

    Display name:
    NRG
    Yeah, sorry. Sometimes it is easier on the ego to be vague and get crucified later in the thread rather than just after post #1. :) Or posting it as "asking for a friend." :rofl:
     
  21. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    34,736

    Display name:
    Tom-D
    Did you forget the question again?

    Post #1
    "What is the required entries to be in the logs when you reinstall an engine that has been overhauled?"

    What does that have to do with cylinders?
     
  22. Bell206

    Bell206 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2017
    Messages:
    5,832

    Display name:
    Bell206
    Ha. As usual you fail to comprehend the big picture or the entire thread. If you tried to follow the entire conversation you would have realized the reason I asked about cylinders in Post #16--which had zero to do with Post #1--was because the OP finally clarified in Post #18 he was trying to figure out if his OH'd engine had nickel cylinders installed. And considering the Western work order should have that cylinder information he will have his question answered. Not what write ups are required for an overhaul.:rolleyes:

    And just to add, thankfully this wasn't one of your overhaul write ups as we probably would have come up empty handed on cylinder type installed based on what you stated below in Post #9.:eek:
     
    RyanB likes this.
  23. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    34,736

    Display name:
    Tom-D
    Finally
     
  24. Domenick

    Domenick Cleared for Takeoff

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2019
    Messages:
    1,012

    Display name:
    Domenick
    I find it hard to believe no one has mentioned simply keeping all the paperwork from any work in a separate log.

    For my Warrior, I went with ADLog for maintenance records and have kept an "Additional Documents" binder since I bought the plane 20 years ago. I have every yellow-tag and piece of paper from my Zephyr overhaul. I have every Aircraft Spruce (and others) receipt for every part purchased for the plane. Every shop work order. All in reverse time order so it's easy to track down additional information from a dated log entry.
     
    Tom-D likes this.
  25. nrpetersen

    nrpetersen Line Up and Wait

    Joined:
    Jan 4, 2013
    Messages:
    614
    Location:
    Minnetonka MN

    Display name:
    nrpetersen
    I once understood certified repair stations were only required to hold repair orders for 2 years. Iszzat so? Seems like a big hole in the system.
     
    Gary Austin likes this.
  26. chemgeek

    chemgeek En-Route

    Joined:
    Dec 5, 2009
    Messages:
    2,608

    Display name:
    chemgeek
    For my overhaul, the removal and re-installation of the engine by my local A&P were pretty simple entries with the SN of the engine removed and installed (same SN). The documentation from the overhauler (Penn Yan Aero) was quite extensive, right down to SN of all the parts installed, run-in procedures, etc. This documentation comes in handy when ADs and serious SBs arise. Was all this required? Don't know.
     
  27. NealRomeoGolf

    NealRomeoGolf En-Route

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2016
    Messages:
    3,545
    Location:
    Illinois

    Display name:
    NRG
    I called Western Skyways and the girl fell out of her chair when I asked her if they had records from 20 years ago. She transferred me to another guy who didn't quite fall out of his chair, but was willing to dig through a few things. He told me all he could tell from history was that they reworked the existing heads and did not replace with new.

    What they overhauled was a Lycoming reman engine that was put on the airframe 7 years into its life. And of course the logbooks don't have what kind of cylinders they were. *sigh*

    I assume you guys aren't just holding back that there is a way to tell from the outside what kind they are.
     
  28. RyanB

    RyanB Super Administrator Management Council Member PoA Supporter

    Joined:
    Jul 21, 2010
    Messages:
    14,519
    Location:
    Chattanooga, TN

    Display name:
    Ryan
    What year was the overhaul done and how many hours since?
     
  29. NealRomeoGolf

    NealRomeoGolf En-Route

    Joined:
    Apr 12, 2016
    Messages:
    3,545
    Location:
    Illinois

    Display name:
    NRG
    Overhaul was done in 1999. Has about 1400 hours on it now.
     
  30. Bell206

    Bell206 Final Approach

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2017
    Messages:
    5,832

    Display name:
    Bell206
    Yes. But not really an issue considering 2 years is double the time most other aircraft maintenance records are required to be retained. Technically you can dispose of maintenance records 1 year after the work was performed except for those records listed in 91.417. However, an number of CRS retain their workorders for longer due to warranty issues, insurance, litigation, etc.
     
    Doc Holliday likes this.
  31. Tom-D

    Tom-D Taxi to Parking

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2005
    Messages:
    34,736

    Display name:
    Tom-D
    I see way more log books that need a cleaning out.