Lockheed closing 7 more AFSS centers

AuntPeggy

AuntPeggy

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Lockheed Martin has announced that effective Feb. 1, 2010, it will implement another round of flight service station consolidations.

Beginning in February, Lockheed will close its locations in Columbia, Mo.; Honolulu, Hawaii; Kankakee, Ill.; Lansing, Mich.; Nashville, Tenn.; Seattle, Wash., and St. Petersburg, Fla.

How many are left?
 
Good grief, I had a hard enough time getting the Seattle FSS to respond as it is, now we are going to have to share with someone else?
 
I didn't realize any had lasted that long. I thought the 3 big centers were the only FSS installations outside of AK. There can't be more than a couple that haven't been folded into the big three.
 
So, who's going to give Hawaii's briefings? Someone in Texas?

It would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad.
 
AuntPeggy said:
Lockheed Martin has announced that effective Feb. 1, 2010, it will implement another round of flight service station consolidations.

Beginning in February, Lockheed will close its locations in Columbia, Mo.; Honolulu, Hawaii; Kankakee, Ill.; Lansing, Mich.; Nashville, Tenn.; Seattle, Wash., and St. Petersburg, Fla.

How many are left?
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Sigh - Those two were the only ones we could still get a good briefing from. :(

GRB AFSS staff mostly just retired, the rest were split between Prescott, AZ and Fort Worth, TX - And our calls get routed to VA. :mad2:
 
Lansing is/was my local AFSS and the old guys there had worked ATC and FSS for decades and understood the idiosyncrasies of Great Lakes weather.. On the times my call got booted to a distant AFSS I knew it immediately when the briefer began giving me a weather opinion that wasn't even in the same galactic quadrant as the Great Lakes Ice Machine...
Darn....

denny-o and Fat Albert The Apache
 
I am not going to give identifiers when asking for briefings. The Lansing briefers knew all the local places. If they don't know where I am at wherever the calls get routed to, they better damn well figure it out.
 
The days of briefers actually having local knowledge passed before I was knighted (Dec 05). I've never had a briefing where the briefer did anything more than read the DUATS printout I already had sitting in front of me. Hell, with some of Scott Dannstadt's DVD's in my library, I know more than they are willing to tell me.

Once I called FSS in flight, even though I had some in-cockpit wx from my G1000. When I discovered that their METAR info was no more current than mine, I stopped calling for in-flight briefings. I have the nexrad, i have the TAFS, i have the Metars, i can watch things develop. Value added? I don't see it.
 
I'll miss the Columbia briefers. They know the region very well. When the switch first happened I'd usually get someone in TX (I'm in KC), and I could tell he/she didn't know the area - it wasn't their fault, I think they were as frustrated by it as I was. Eventually, things settled down and I'd get the Columbia FSS again (about 125 miles away) and they and I were relieved to be having a conversation where both sides knew the area.
 
EdFred said:
I am not going to give identifiers when asking for briefings. The Lansing briefers knew all the local places. If they don't know where I am at wherever the calls get routed to, they better damn well figure it out.
Click to expand...

They're getting paid by the hour, not by the briefing.
 
flyersfan31 said:
The days of briefers actually having local knowledge passed before I was knighted (Dec 05). I've never had a briefing where the briefer did anything more than read the DUATS printout I already had sitting in front of me. Hell, with some of Scott Dannstadt's DVD's in my library, I know more than they are willing to tell me.

Once I called FSS in flight, even though I had some in-cockpit wx from my G1000. When I discovered that their METAR info was no more current than mine, I stopped calling for in-flight briefings. I have the nexrad, i have the TAFS, i have the Metars, i can watch things develop. Value added? I don't see it.
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I remember the days before PCs that I would frequently go into Denver FSS to look at the visual satellite picture since mapping with clouds is usually verboten. They would sometimes ask ME what the weather was doing outside because they were in a building with no windows. It's been a long time since I visited and I can't anymore anyway because they are gone. I think FSSs served a good purpose in their day but with the advent of much more information available without calling someone on the telephone to get it I think the cost/benefit ratio has gone down. I wonder what percentage of pilots still call for a briefing.
 
It's only a matter of time until all our briefings will be done by a guy in India in between the calls he's taking for Dell. This is what privatization of the FSS system will lead to. I'm getting everything I need for a briefing from a couple of apps/web sites on my iPhone and if I didn't have to file and activate an SFRA flight plan every time a cranked, I wouldn't call anyone either.
 
Everskyward said:
I think FSSs served a good purpose in their day but with the advent of much more information available without calling someone on the telephone to get it I think the cost/benefit ratio has gone down. I wonder what percentage of pilots still call for a briefing.
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I suppose you're right...times change. But here in little old Iowa there used to be probably 10 or FSS stations back in the day (back in the day when we used to say back in the day). And those old teletype machines that spit out forecasts and conditions were pretty neat with the little circles filled in in quarters to indicate sky conditions.


Trapper John
 
Trapper John said:
I suppose you're right...times change. But here in little old Iowa there used to be probably 10 or FSS stations back in the day (back in the day when we used to say back in the day). And those old teletype machines that spit out forecasts and conditions were pretty neat with the little circles filled in in quarters to indicate sky conditions.
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I make it a dozen; Atlantic, Burlington, Cedar Rapids, Davenport, Des Moines, Iowa City, Lamoni, Mason City, Montezuma, Ottumwa, Sioux City, and Waterloo.

Not all of these were actually Flight Service Stations, some were decommissioned before that designation came along in 1960, when they started providing weather briefings. They had previously been designated Air Mail Radio Stations, then Airway Radio Stations, then Airway Communications Stations, and finally Air Traffic Communications Stations before becoming FSS.
 
EdFred said:
Actually, I did the last time I went flying.
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I've called for each cross country just to hear it out load and listen to a second opinion.

I visited Lansing a couple years ago and may shoot over one more time before they close.
 
In the days of internet and real time WX downlink FSS is a dinosaur.

But I still rely on it. Most of my vacations involve locations with no cell coverage, and definitely no internet (as an insight into what I am trying to vacation from). I am still trying to milk high quality information from a rotary dial phone and a tattered map of the midwest and it can be done.

What I am disappointed in is that it is a call center, designed to read you the computer product. The days are long gone when you could argue with the briefer and you were talking to a weather geek who had been watching things unfold all day. Yes, they were human, and yes they probably colored the briefing with too much unwanted opinion -- but it was a value added transaction. You could even ask to talk to the staff meterologist, who loved the fact that Joe Cessna wanted to argue the models were off becuase the winds aloft and temperatures were incorrect based on the last flight.

I used to fly regularly VFR between Waunakee and Dayton and stop at Kankakee for gas and a briefing and those folks don't know how getting a calm considered briefing on the ground was a big part of my being safe and successful. I remember getting a briefing in Florida after I had just gotten my instrument rating and was headed home from the Bahama's and the weather was down and I was trying to get home before it went any downer. The fellow was so patient to let me sit as his terminal and then very un-ontrusively would answer my questions (which mostly meant schooling me in the geography and pointing out airports on a map). It still sticks out in my mind for its customer service and he would never know how having a strong picture in my head before I launched was the only way I stood a chance to sort things out as things evolved during the trip.

I once had a GRB briefer call the FBO *after my briefing* to advise of an icing pirep. Clearly the fellow was concerned that Joe Cessna was determined to launch and "take a look" despite all and every METAR he could dredge up and when the clear no-go PIREP came back he called the FBO and had them track me down as I was getting organized for stupid.

I realize its a dinasaur and probably the cost/contact is more than I would pay if it weren't "free" but with WX being one of my biggest dangers it seems bad strategy to drive that service down as a cost -- even with majik XM radio and internet2.

Ok, off the soapbox. I really like FSS stations. I hope Princeton hangs on becuase the briefings to "by-mag-eye" give little confidence ...
 
Visit Alaska. They still have real AFSS stations, with real people, who really know the local weather, who are really happy when people drop in for a visit. Very different from the lower 48 these days.
 
I didn't even realize Albuquerque AFSS closed down. Not like I ever got a decent briefing from them after Lockheed took over anyway (or before, now that I think of it).

I call AFSS, and immediately ignore everything they say until they get to the TFR part. Most of it is useless or wrong anyway.

"You're flying from Albuquerque to Phoenix? Well, there is a stationary front in the Great Lakes region that is driving poor weather and low ceilings all over the Midwest. Airmet Tango is in effect from New York City to Boston. All that said, VFR flight is not recommended over your route."

Awesome. Give me my TFRs and stop opining, its not like you've ever actually flown an airplane.
 
SkyHog said:
I call AFSS, and immediately ignore everything they say until they get to the TFR part. Most of it is useless or wrong anyway.
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You know you can just ask if there are any TFR in the area.
 
Matthew said:
I'll miss the Columbia briefers. They know the region very well. When the switch first happened I'd usually get someone in TX (I'm in KC), and I could tell he/she didn't know the area - it wasn't their fault, I think they were as frustrated by it as I was. Eventually, things settled down and I'd get the Columbia FSS again (about 125 miles away) and they and I were relieved to be having a conversation where both sides knew the area.
Click to expand...

Missouri was the last Midwestern state where I actually thought local briefers were necessary, simply because there are so few AWOS/ASOS reporting stations. Once we get South of Kirksville, it's like we've flown back into the 1920s, watching the clouds and hoping for the best.

By comparison, Iowa, Wisconsin, Illinois, and Minnesota are positively wired for weather, with nearly every airport "on the grid"...
 
Trapper John said:
I suppose you're right...times change. But here in little old Iowa there used to be probably 10 or FSS stations back in the day (back in the day when we used to say back in the day). And those old teletype machines that spit out forecasts and conditions were pretty neat with the little circles filled in in quarters to indicate sky conditions.
Click to expand...

What year did they close the Iowa City FSS? When I was writing the history of Iowa City Airport a few years ago, that was something I could not determine from the (sparse) paper trail they left behind. (See the history here: http://www.alexisparkinn.com/the_iowa_city_airport.htm )
 
SkyHog said:
I didn't even realize Albuquerque AFSS closed down. Not like I ever got a decent briefing from them after Lockheed took over anyway (or before, now that I think of it).

I call AFSS, and immediately ignore everything they say until they get to the TFR part. Most of it is useless or wrong anyway.

"You're flying from Albuquerque to Phoenix? Well, there is a stationary front in the Great Lakes region that is driving poor weather and low ceilings all over the Midwest. Airmet Tango is in effect from New York City to Boston. All that said, VFR flight is not recommended over your route."

Awesome. Give me my TFRs and stop opining, its not like you've ever actually flown an airplane.
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Do what I do -- "I already have a complete weather briefing, I only need to check TFRs and NOTAMS, please." Save yourself time.
 
And that way you don't get the obligatory "There's a 25% chance of a cumulus cloud within 75 MN of your planned route of flight. VFR flight NOT recommended." message :D
 
vontresc said:
And that way you don't get the obligatory "There's a 25% chance of a cumulus cloud within 75 MN of your planned route of flight. VFR flight NOT recommended." message :D
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I always loved it when I was making the return flight to Denver from some little airport in eastern CO or western KS and the briefer would give me all the AIRMETS and SIGMETS for over the mountains. I guess they thought I was going to fall asleep or work on my laptop and pass over Denver on my way home. :sleep:
 
Jay Honeck said:
What year did they close the Iowa City FSS?
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They didn't, Iowa City never had a FSS. The Iowa City Interstate Airway Communications Station closed sometime between 1948 and 1953. The FAA announced the new name for these facilities, "Flight Service Station" on March 1, 1960.

The December 1953 Des Moines sectional shows "Insac at Cedar Rapids" for Iowa City Radio. The Cedar Rapids airport data block shows "Insac for Iowa City". The Cedar Rapids station was commissioned on June 5, 1953. The Iowa City station was probably decommissioned on or shortly after that date.
 
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According to Avweb:
http://www.avweb.com/avwebbiz/news/LockheedMartinClosingSevenFlightServiceStations_201734-1.html said:
Lockheed Martin Closing Seven Flight Service Stations

Lockheed Martin says service will not suffer when it closes seven of the remaining 13 Automated Flight Service Stations on Feb. 1 and lays off another 160 flight service specialists and management personnel. Lockheed Martin spokeswoman Jan Gottfredsen told AVweb that a 13 percent reduction in call volume combined with efficiencies gained with a new communications network mean that the six remaining AFSS facilities will be able to seamlessly handle the calls.
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Good to know that service will not suffer. Wonder why there has been a reduction in the use of AFSS?
 
It's hard to separate the LM situation from another very important variable -- the Internet.

Why? There is so much wx info available today, in forms easily understood and accessible, that the need for AFSS services is greatly reduced. I can get every bit of info they can. Why bother with AFSS? Now, if there were a meteorologist involved, that would be different. But it's just weather reading. I can do that myself.

I think even the local knowledge thing is overrated, except maybe in Alaska.

Sure, it would be nice to stroll into a FSS, have a nice sitdown with somebody, review the charts. But here we are worried about federal deficits and we want to keep a bunch of people sitting around rooms waiting for pilots to drop in to chat about weather?????? We have to start saving somewhere. I have no problem saving on this.
 
flyersfan31 said:
It's hard to separate the LM situation from another very important variable -- the Internet.

Why? There is so much wx info available today, in forms easily understood and accessible, that the need for AFSS services is greatly reduced. I can get every bit of info they can. Why bother with AFSS? Now, if there were a meteorologist involved, that would be different. But it's just weather reading. I can do that myself.

I think even the local knowledge thing is overrated, except maybe in Alaska.

Sure, it would be nice to stroll into a FSS, have a nice sitdown with somebody, review the charts. But here we are worried about federal deficits and we want to keep a bunch of people sitting around rooms waiting for pilots to drop in to chat about weather?????? We have to start saving somewhere. I have no problem saving on this.
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I don't think there's all that much local knowledge now anyway. For example, calls to Green Bay FSS are normally answered by LockMart personnel in Virginia, but the former Green Bay AFSS personnel that stayed on with LockMart were transferred to Arizona and Texas.
 
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