Living paycheck to paycheck on $150,000

There are some lessons here. One is that you really do not need all that junk until you are already saving. To be able to save seems insurmountable. But if you start with only 1 or 2% each pay day and each rasie you get you increase it another percent or two it will be pretty high in just a couple of years.

That is how I started with my 401k and now I max out every year. I have been doing that for well over a decade and a half. That is a key savings as it comes from your pre-tax earnings and is what you need to live on after you retire. Do not ever take a loan on it.

Next you need a budget. Put everything expense item in there. Then on a monthly basis contribute to it. Include an emergency fund and entertainment funds. Each pay period I set aside about $350 (excluding mortgage) to into the budget. Things such as vehicle registration where I contribute $5 a month or in the budget. So when those bills become due I have the cash.

No credit card debt. Keep this at zero. It is the worst loan you could have. If you have credit card debt pay it of ASAP as it is sapping you dry.

Most importantly don't buy more house than you can afford. I see a lot of my peers in these McMansions that are running for a $500,000 or more. They can barely afford to furnish the darn things. Let alone have money left over to buy play things.

In addition to the bills to be paid in the budget I also save each month to replace stuff I already have. like $550/mo for car replacement, I have built up a pretty good nest egg to get a new car when the time comes and I am already making a car payment so no affect on my budget, just who I pay that money to.

As the middle classes get squeezed more and more you have to be careful and have a next egg. The idea of spending without restraint is poor fiscal policy for anybody, company, or country. Eventually those bills become due.
 
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http://money.cnn.com/2006/12/13/magazines/moneymag/scraping_by.moneymag/index.htm

Before anyone goes all "WHAT?!?", the family lost about a third of their income because the father lost his job, and no matter what you're making, losing a third of it out of the blue is bound to hit your lifestyle hard.

On;y if you are mentally deficient. They still have a (bleeping) horse! That is not scraping by or living paycheck to paycheck. That is called keeping up with the Joneses, or hell, it might even be being the Joneses. Guess what, I live on LESS THAN HALF of what I make in a year, so I could take a 33% paycut, and have no issues - and I make a hell of a lot less than those two "paupers" do. I could take a 50% paycut and have no issues. I could *maybe* take a 75% paycut and still keep my house. Would I have cable? No. Would I have a phone? No. Would I have internet? No. Could I pay the taxes on it and still eat? Yes. Hell, I might even be able to keep my plane without taking on a partner. Why because I've been socking away $$ since I started working full time when I was 17.

Articles like that make me sick. All they do is perpetuate the myth that you HAVE to live beyond your means to be American.
 
On;y if you are mentally deficient. They still have a (bleeping) horse! That is not scraping by or living paycheck to paycheck. That is called keeping up with the Joneses, or hell, it might even be being the Joneses.

100% concur, especially considering their cost of living area. These people have NO clue about the real world.
 
It happens at all income levels. There's a reference to it in "The Bonfire of the Vanities" in which the protagonist says something about going broke on a couple million a year. And look at all the professional athletes (Mike Tyson being the poster boy) who scrounge or even turn to selling drugs when their careers are over, because they have become accustomed to a certain lifestyle.

To some people, $700 is a mortgage payment, to others a car payment, to others the fuel bill for flying some friends to dinner.
 
When I was shocked that about all of my neighbors are dropping $500+ a month in payments for the (each of 2!) new cars they're driving...Now I've offered on the house and in spite of my fears I can't seem to convince myself that I can't swing it. I'm amazed that I can do it. I always thought homeowners were other people - in spite of owning the plane.

I just read an article about a book about how the really wealthy live. Your neighbor in the modest house is the guy worth $3 million. They drive Toyotas and keep them for 10 years. When you see the guy in the BMW you're looking at a loser.

Here it is:
The Millionaire Next Door," a book that dashed our notions about who America's millionaires really are and how they spend their money, marked its 10th anniversary recently, and nobody noticed. No party. No 10th-anniversary edition. Nothing.
...

The book showed that millionaires spend their money smarter than other people. They still do.

Most important, the book showed that people with average, steady jobs can become millionaires over their lifetimes--that most millionaires are made, not born. Indeed, 80 percent of millionaires are first-generation rich, the authors found. They are modest. In fact, they might live next door.

The book's fundamental message about spending is this: You can look wealthy or you can be wealthy. For most people, the choices are mutually exclusive.

During a blunt conversation, Stanley talked about common spending traits of millionaires a decade ago and in his current research, which will be explained in his next book, which has the working title "Looking Rich in America."

THE WEALTHY KNOW SPENDING MATTERS. Financial health is about earning and spending. Although earning a lot of money is correlated with wealth, it's not a perfect correlation. "The spending issue is significant," Stanley said. "I believe very strongly that not everybody can play great offense. In other words, not everybody can make $1 million a year or even $100,000. The typical household in the United States makes under $50,000 a year.

"Given that, you have to look at defense. To play great defense, you have to know where all the money is going. And most people don't. So the first thing I would tell people is to account for every dime and nickel they've got and write it all down. You'd be shocked at how much money people waste. It's ridiculous."

http://www.chicagotribune.com/business/yourmoney/chi-0612160245dec17,1,6890478.story

Once again, it's hell being a grown up.
 
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I have no sympathy.

And Mike is absolutely right.
 
In the last 2 years my income is down 50% ... you make adjustments or you don't. Sounds like these folks haven't quite faced up to the complete reality of downsizing.
 
Barny's comment is valid. If we suddenly/unexpectedly lost 30% of our monthly income, we would have about 60 days to adjust before we would be paycheck to paycheck.

That does not justify a lack of planning. We are planning to take a cut when the Redhead retires next summer. The expected decrease in income will be planned for and not appreciably affect our lifestyle.

The biggest problem here is the way the media reports these events. If it were 1910, the media would be making big stories about the coming crisis in the buggy whip industry.
 
There are some lessons here. One is that you really do not need all that junk until you are already saving. To be able to save seems insurmountable. But if you start with only 1 or 2% each pay day and each rasie you get you increase it another percent or two it will be pretty high in just a couple of years.

That is how I started with my 401k and now I max out every year. I have been doing that for well over a decade and a half. That is a key savings as it comes from your pre-tax earnings and is what you need to live on after you retire. Do not ever take a loan on it.

Next you need a budget. Put everything expense item in there. Then on a monthly basis contribute to it. Include an emergency fund and entertainment funds. Each pay period I set aside about $350 (excluding mortgage) to into the budget. Things such as vehicle registration where I contribute $5 a month or in the budget. So when those bills become due I have the cash.

No credit card debt. Keep this at zero. It is the worst loan you could have. If you have credit card debt pay it of ASAP as it is sapping you dry.

Most importantly don't buy more house than you can afford. I see a lot of my peers in these McMansions that are running for a $500,000 or more. They can barely afford to furnish the darn things. Let alone have money left over to buy play things.

In addition to the bills to be paid in the budget I also save each month to replace stuff I already have. like $550/mo for car replacement, I have built up a pretty good nest egg to get a new car when the time comes and I am already making a car payment so no affect on my budget, just who I pay that money to.

As the middle classes get squeezed more and more you have to be careful and have a next egg. The idea of spending without restraint is poor fiscal policy for anybody, company, or country. Eventually those bills become due.

I may be wrong, but it sounds like you're a fellow Dave Ramsey fan.

Finding Dave Ramsey was a great thing for me and my wife. Before we were married she was leasing a car. She told me that she thought that she'd always be leasing because, "if you're always going to have a car payment, you might as well lease. You can get more car for the same amount of money." This attitude despite having gone over in mileage each of her last two leases and having had to roll that overage into her new lease. I told her that if that was the case, we might need to rethink the fact that we were dating, because I was unlikely to ever have a car payment again after I paid off the car that I was driving.

Now that we've learned how to control what happens to our money it is amazing how fast it grows. We now have two paid off cars and owe on nothing but our house. I'm amazed to see how baffled people are that we have 6 months of expenses saved up in an emergency fund and that we save 15% of our income for retirement. I've only shared that with close friends (and now all of you) as it's come up in conversation, but it's mind boggling to talk with people that make good money and still live paycheck to paycheck.

William, if you're interested in this type of stuff...do yourself a favor and look into Dave Ramsey. I'm sure he's on the radio in your area. Go grab one of his books and read it. If I would have known what I know now when I was first coming into the work force there's no telling how much money I'd have saved by now.
 
The book showed that millionaires spend their money smarter than other people. They still do.
I think there are plenty of millionaires who spend their money very freely, which is good for the economy in general and my economy in particular. :yes:

Besides, what's money if you don't spend it? Of course you have to put food on the table first...
 
Of course you have to put food on the table first...

Not just food, but provide your family with some security first, then have some fun with toys. Problem these days is most folks feel they are somehow entitled to have all the toys from day one.

I'm more in the camp of "good things come to those who wait", but scratch wait, and replace it with "plan and have patience." A little stoicism is good for the soul.
 
The Millionaire Next Door book was an excellent read. However, I think this part of the Chicago Trib article is a bit misleading:

Most important, the book showed that people with average, steady jobs can become millionaires over their lifetimes--that most millionaires are made, not born.
IIRC, according to the book, the more significant aspect of becoming a millionaire was to own your own business, even if it is a small one.

When you see the guy in the BMW you're looking at a loser.
Hey! I drive a BMW! It's a 1988 though, so I can afford me plane. :yes:



-Rich
 
When we were kids, it would have been doable, but it was too expensive to have a horse and we could see why. 2 rental houses unrented? The poor guys should definately be planning better if they have 4 kids.
 
Barny's comment is valid. If we suddenly/unexpectedly lost 30% of our monthly income, we would have about 60 days to adjust before we would be paycheck to paycheck.

That's what I was getting at. In the end, they shouldn't have assumed the money was going to keep pouring in until they retired, and they should've dropped those bloodsucking rental houses a while ago.
 
you know what grinds my gears?

USAToday.com has been profiling people buried in debt. It torques my nuts (and bolts) that a lot of kids that piled up $50K-150K in student loans and are bellyaching now that it's payback time. One kid spent two years after college travelling Europe on credit cards. Another...who the heck knows how she racked up over $100K in student loans? But none of them think it's fair.

They get no sympathy from me. Not that many people do. I'll make a great grouchy old man one day.
 
On;y if you are mentally deficient. They still have a (bleeping) horse! That is not scraping by or living paycheck to paycheck. That is called keeping up with the Joneses, or hell, it might even be being the Joneses.

Agreed.

It's sickening to see someone driving a new BMW or SUV around while living in a huge house and whining about being broke while sitting on their horse talking on a cellphone.

If you want leaky worn out tennis shoes poor, you should visit my neighbor sometime..and even then she manages to go to school to dig herself out of the hole she's in. Nearly zero bank balance after each paycheck, lives in a 12ft 1970 camper, has to walk about 300ft up the way to go potty or take a shower and has to go outside to fill water jugs from a faucet. The dog is a luxary item but he's also a foot warmer on cold nights. (Forced air central heating? Try a $20 space heater, 5 blankets and a puppy) She was more excited about buying $2.49 of 1" insulating foam last week than people are about buying a 50" flat screen tv with surround sound for their 4000+ sq ft home. The kicker is that she's still finding ways to cut overhead without cutting the little activities that make life fun.

It doesn't take a lot of money to be happy. It does take a lot of money to make other people happy and live up to their lifestyles. Pick your friends and neighbors accordingly.

Food, roof over head, not freezing to death, basic clothes and little fun activities to make life enjoyable. Everything else is fluff. Too much fluff makes you miserable without knowing you're miserable.
 
"Amy stopped contributing to her 401(k)"


yeah, that was a good move....good grief. These will be the same people complaining because they don't enough funds in a retirement plan when they want to retire 20 years from now.
 
Re: you know what grinds my gears?

USAToday.com has been profiling people buried in debt. It torques my nuts (and bolts) that a lot of kids that piled up $50K-150K in student loans and are bellyaching now that it's payback time.

Another...who the heck knows how she racked up over $100K in student loans? But none of them think it's fair.
How the heck do you rack up 100k in student loans?? Have you looked at the price of education recently? Law school will cost most of my peers half again that much, and law school is cheap as far as graduate schools go. A friend of mine in med school will lay out 200k by the time it is all over.
You get a tax deduction in this country for buying a house but you don't get one for paying for the cost of education. The increase in the price of education has outstripped inflation for decades, meaning that education is only getting more expensive relative to everything else.
If our country is so concerned with losing the brain race with the rest of the planet, we NEED to make higher education more affordable.
 
Re: you know what grinds my gears?

How the heck do you rack up 100k in student loans?? Have you looked at the price of education recently? Law school will cost most of my peers half again that much, and law school is cheap as far as graduate schools go. A friend of mine in med school will lay out 200k by the time it is all over.
You get a tax deduction in this country for buying a house but you don't get one for paying for the cost of education. The increase in the price of education has outstripped inflation for decades, meaning that education is only getting more expensive relative to everything else.
If our country is so concerned with losing the brain race with the rest of the planet, we NEED to make higher education more affordable.

Huh? All the tuition of my professional MBA I finished a while back was tax-deductible. Maybe it's only post-graduate?
 
Re: you know what grinds my gears?

$200K for a medical doctor? Sounds like he should have it paid off in a year or so.
 
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Gee thanks bud!! And here I am thinking of trading my Beemer for a new one.

:redface:

Hey *I* had a Beemer but it was 1980 Diesel. I still wish I had kept that sucker. I bought the Mustang to overcompensate for the lack of acceleration.

I should have said NEW BMW, no... Hummer!... nobody needs a Hummer, right? (THIS after it took me 45 minutes to drive 4 miles in Chicago Saturday but the oncoming Hummer just turned left and cut right through the line of cars. I guess we're lucky he didn't go over the top. God I HATE what this city has become. I was on my way to meet the broker make the offer for the house far OUT of Chicago's reach.)

Oh nevermind. Enjoy what you enjoy. I shouldda knowed better.
 
IBesides, what's money if you don't spend it?

Agreed. I plan to live forever and have a fun but not flashy retirement. It's been a while since I've done the math, but I come out needing a bit less than a million at age 65 to do that if I don't take any sort of pensions into account. I also want to have about 6 months emergency operating expenses in liquid assets.

If I have a million dollars in the bank at age 40 or 50 instead of at 65, I haven't been spending enough money. I'd much rather be travelling, flying, and generally having adventures that enrich who I am as a person than be putting my money in a bank account. Money has no value in itself other than what it enables me to do. If I'm not doing anything with it, then it has no value at all.

There's a balance point somewhere between "up to your eyeballs in debt but having fun for now" and "having no fun, but look how many zeros my bank account has."

Chris
 
There's a balance point somewhere between "up to your eyeballs in debt but having fun for now" and "having no fun, but look how many zeros my bank account has."

Chris

I was going to expound upon that thought with a graphical curve representing constant fun over a lifetime adjusted for constantly shifting financial factors :yes: , but alas I'm away from home and don't have good enough software on this computer to pull it off. Maybe one of you other creative types can try it :D

I'm certainly not on the EdFred plan (and I've read his other comments in the past on financial matters and debt) but I'm not exactly leveraged to the eyeballs either. I remember a certain character in a John Gresham novel who decided he was going to work like a slave until his thirties and then retire (especially) early. Nope, not me.

I pour enough funds in my Thrift Savings Plan (basically the gov't 401K) to ensure that I will have somewhere more than $500K at retirement in addition to my pension. Yes, I have a small liquid reserve, plus extra savings for other things, but I admit to occasional extravagant spending as well as cyclical credit card balances (you know: spend heavily, feel guilty, pay it off, then spend heavily again.) You can't defer all of your discretionary spending until you are 60.

But $ /= happiness either, not even in America. Other than flying I try to keep my hobbies (relatively) cheap and healthy.
 
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No sympathy for them. If it were me, those rentals would be gone right quick. They have the means to resolve someof their issues. They just haven't come to terms with them all yet.
On the other hand, lots of things can affect your income. Life, death, job experience, marraige, and my personal favorite, divorce. In some cases, proper planning (and that, afterall, is the KEY to the article) can mitigate some of the hardship. If you have a good 3 months salary tucked away in a rainy day fund, you have a good chance of surviving whatever is thrown at you. Take it off the top of the check before you see it then it doesn't hurt so bad. Let me also add that you should put it in another bank to make it a "THOUGHT" transaction rather than a point and click.
Set yourself a limit today, work to it, and start depriving yourself of extras until you hit your goal. You will be better off
PS: If you have any spare cash laying about, feel free to send it my way. My next egg/rainy day fund needs propping up.
 
Re: you know what grinds my gears?

$200K for a medical doctor? Sounds like he should have it paid off in a year or so.

Just like with pilots, the days of $200K doctors being common are fading.
Yes, many do bill more than that, but the costs of malpractice insurance, reduced payments, etc. significantly reduce the net.
 
I have no sympathy.

And Mike is absolutely right.

i have no sympathy for them either but I do empathy for them. They need to learn, and quick, that they have more cutting to do and how to make better decisions before they completely mess up the kids and their their own future.
 
We do our children a huge disservice by not teaching them fundamental money management and budgeting. Our educational system covers a lot of other necessities of life but has not been upgraded to reflect the ease of credit today. Today's generation isn't concerned with becoming debt free - instead they are focused on "making the monthly payments". Look at the new car ads in your local paper and you're hard pressed to find out what the cost of the car is - all you can find is what your "low monthly payment" will be. So many of our customers who wind up with me have never balanced a check book or reconciled a bank statement. You ask them to list their checks in float and you get this blank look.

I used to teach a two day Junior Achievement course to Grades 5 & 6 called the Economics of Staying In School. It dealt with basic budgeting - inflows matching outflows + savings.

I believe we should add a high school course on money, debt and budgeting.
 
i have no sympathy for them either but I do empathy for them. They need to learn, and quick, that they have more cutting to do and how to make better decisions before they completely mess up the kids and their their own future.

No, Scott, perhaps you don't understand.

I have been looking for new full-time work for 2 years now. I've done some consulting stuff, but it's paid very little. My loss of income was much, much greater than these folks.

Now, having said that, I have lived much more conservatively financially than they have. I have one debt: the mortgage on the house. And it can be paid by "liquid" assets (stocks) that I own. I'm not paying off the house because I want the liquidity right now. Car, airplane, other real estate: all paid in full.

This has allowed me the luxury to take some time and find the job I really want in, a place I'd like to be, not one that I have to take to maintain a lifestyle. Yeah, I've cut back on my flying to keep costs down (but I've been able to keep the plane, though I may have to think about selling it at some point if I don't land something), but I've also traveled regularly to another market to build a professional network (thank you Delta and Marriott for fine frequent-flyer/frequent-guest programs).

Hopefully, my efforts will pay off soon. But really, I'm looking at it in terms of the long run (however, if any PoA'er would like to hand me a winning lottery ticket, I'll be glad to take it :rolleyes: ).

It's not without pain, because I have had to cut out a number of luxuries, and because the much lower income for a couple of years will hurt me in trying to find a mortgage, but given the trade-off, I'd much rather have some cash in hand and a job I enjoy than to sweat paycheck-to-paycheck.

Without sending this into spin zone, this is also why I am irritated at our elected officials over lack of fiscal constraint. If I can do it, so can they on behalf of the country. It's not linked to the moral issues raised by certain groups, but it is an ethical issue on a different level.
 
I used to teach a two day Junior Achievement course to Grades 5 & 6 called the Economics of Staying In School. It dealt with basic budgeting - inflows matching outflows + savings.

I believe we should add a high school course on money, debt and budgeting.

I had to take one of these in grade 9. We covered budgeting and understanding banking. I remember we had to practice how to write a check (actually it was writing a cheque since this was in Canada). We also learned about understanding advertising tricks and how to comparison shop and things like that. I think it's a great idea. It doesn't need to be a whole course, just a few weeks out of the home economics course or something like that.

Chris
 
I had to take one of these in grade 9. We covered budgeting and understanding banking. I remember we had to practice how to write a check (actually it was writing a cheque since this was in Canada). We also learned about understanding advertising tricks and how to comparison shop and things like that. I think it's a great idea. It doesn't need to be a whole course, just a few weeks out of the home economics course or something like that.

Chris

We had to take one as well in HS. I learned enough to start a pyramid scheme that netted me almost $50 before the staff figured it out and stopped it. But I got to keep my money. My argument was that we were all taught the same info. If some students were caught up in the scheme they obviously had not learned from teacher in the class. Lucky for them that I learned enough to be able to teach them in a way that they will remember.

I, BTW, did not get into trouble.
 
re: dumping the rentals; might not be so easy. When I moved from SoCal in '89, we kept our house as a rental, since the rental market looked quite good. In 90, the housing market took a dump out there. We were losing $250 each month that the house was rented, and considerably more when it wasn't. We tried to sell it (which impacted the rentability of the house), and the best offer we got would have required us to bring $30k to closing to sell it. Our budget could afford the $250/mo but I didn't have $30k laying around to hand over with the house to a buyer. It took 8 years for the market to turn around enough to sell for what we owed. If I had my crystal ball, I would have held on... that same house recently sold for 5 times what we paid for it in '88.
 
Agreed. I plan to live forever and have a fun but not flashy retirement. It's been a while since I've done the math, but I come out needing a bit less than a million at age 65 to do that if I don't take any sort of pensions into account. I also want to have about 6 months emergency operating expenses in liquid assets.

If I have a million dollars in the bank at age 40 or 50 instead of at 65, I haven't been spending enough money. I'd much rather be travelling, flying, and generally having adventures that enrich who I am as a person than be putting my money in a bank account. Money has no value in itself other than what it enables me to do. If I'm not doing anything with it, then it has no value at all.

There's a balance point somewhere between "up to your eyeballs in debt but having fun for now" and "having no fun, but look how many zeros my bank account has."

Chris

Bravo!

Now, with that said...two of the biggest things that can kill ones ability to save and "live well" are car payments and credit card debt. Just knocking those two things out can free up a TON of cash. We are now down to one car payment and almost not CC debt (just a bit from some recent purchases that will all be paid off in three months).

It is amazing what it is like to NOT live under 30K in CC debt.

BTW..someone said that money does not buy happiness. Well if you are an SOB by nature, then no it does not, but there have been recent studies that have shown that yes if one is financially sound then one is generally happier.
 
BTW..someone said that money does not buy happiness. Well if you are an SOB by nature, then no it does not, but there have been recent studies that have shown that yes if one is financially sound then one is generally happier.

Yes, there have been some really interesting international studies that have been published recently about this. The very interesting results seem to be that money absolutely buys happiness up to the point where it takes you above the poverty line. Poor people tend to be less happy. Once you have enough money that you're not just trying to survive, then the absolute amount of money you have doesn't make you happy, but the amount you have relative to your friends and neighbors does. So if everybody gets an extra thousand dollars, nobody gets happier, but if only Joe gets an extra thousand dollars, Joe gets happier. It's pathetic, but it seems to be what the research is saying.

In my case, money absolutely does buy happiness. With money I can fly airplanes, scuba dive around remote tropical islands, climb african volcanoes, kayak around rugged archipelagos, and do all the other things that both make me happy and, I believe, enrich who I am as a person.

Of course, money is only part of that equation. If I'm miserable at my job or unhappy in my marriage, then money won't fix these things. I've chosen to make a lot less money than I could so that I can live in a cool part of the world, have a neat job, and have plenty of time off. So money is only part of the quality of life equation, but it certainly is an important part. If you don't have any of it, it becomes the dominant part.

Chris
 
So money is only part of the quality of life equation, but it certainly is an important part. If you don't have any of it, it becomes the dominant part.

Chris

Wholeheartedly agree. My income with this new job will be three times what I was trying to live on throughout college. Now I'll be able to save some, spend some, and still get all the bills in on time. I will say right now that I am a happier person knowing that easier financial times are ahead.
 
Yes, there have been some really interesting international studies that have been published recently about this. The very interesting results seem to be that money absolutely buys happiness up to the point where it takes you above the poverty line. Poor people tend to be less happy. Once you have enough money that you're not just trying to survive, then the absolute amount of money you have doesn't make you happy, but the amount you have relative to your friends and neighbors does. So if everybody gets an extra thousand dollars, nobody gets happier, but if only Joe gets an extra thousand dollars, Joe gets happier. It's pathetic, but it seems to be what the research is saying.

In my case, money absolutely does buy happiness. With money I can fly airplanes, scuba dive around remote tropical islands, climb african volcanoes, kayak around rugged archipelagos, and do all the other things that both make me happy and, I believe, enrich who I am as a person.

Of course, money is only part of that equation. If I'm miserable at my job or unhappy in my marriage, then money won't fix these things. I've chosen to make a lot less money than I could so that I can live in a cool part of the world, have a neat job, and have plenty of time off. So money is only part of the quality of life equation, but it certainly is an important part. If you don't have any of it, it becomes the dominant part.

Chris

Very well said Chris!
 
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