LiveATC: Practicing copying clearances

AggieMike88

AggieMike88

Touchdown! Greaser!
Joined
Jan 13, 2010
Messages
20,805
Location
Denton, TX
Display Name
Display name:
The original "I don't know it all" of aviation.
As an aspiring instrument pilot (will be wrapping this journey up this fall), I'd like to brush up on listening to Clearance Delivery and copying it all down when CD is in "80 words a second and gusting to 120" mode.

Any suggestions on where to tune into on LiveATC in order to hear an active clearance delivery frequency?
 
I found some pre-recorded stuff online. But, the best thing I've found is an online course called "Clearance Magic". Its a 1 year subscription for $39.95. I hate the idea of paying. But, it might be worth it to you, if you're looking for a methodical way to practice copying clearances.

I use the C-R-A-F-T method. It seems to work well for me. The Clearance Magic author didn't seem to think much of it. But, I think C-R-A-F-T works as well (for his course and in real life) as his method does, and its a whole lot simpler IMHO.
 
http://yyz.liveatc.net/katl_del

If you are using something like ForeFlight the process can be simplified if you file through ForeFlight you will get notified about the routing. Or file and then go to FlightAware and look up your tail # and the route will be there. This will allow you to fill in most of the CRAFT info ahead of time. When departing our airport "D" it also pretty standard to get the same initial departure info.
 
Just find a busy Delta tower that is transmitting. If you tune into a Bravo or Charlie Clearance Delivery you will be hearing a lot of info that will be a bit more than the GA world will receive on a daily basis from a starting out perspective.

Mastering a clearance readback and executing is more than just listening, copying and regurgitating...it is also preparation.

I use the CRAFT-V method. Although you get a LOT of information thrown at you in a clearance, between filling out as much as you can in the CRAFT format from info you know and get from the plates...as well as expected route info from Foreflight, there ends up being only a few things that you need to fill in on the fly when receiving your clearance.

Here is what my Kneebaord looks like before I even call for clearance:

C: Fullerton (Cleared to:I know where I am going)

R: W3 Departure, Salinas, V25, Fullerton, Direct (via Route:expected route via forelight, plus I looked that KWVI has a DP which is typically part of a clearance out of an uncontrolled field)

A: C/M___________ E 11,000' 10 Min (Altitude: Climb and Maintain TBD, expect 11000' which is what I flied for and it is typically 10 min after departure)

F: 127.15 (Departure Frequency is on the approach plates/DP/AFD)

T:____________ (Transponder)

V: ___________(Void time if flying out of an uncontrolled field)

If all goes well I will put a slant in my route when ATC says "then as filed" and all I have to write down on the fly is my initial assigned altitude, squawk and void time if applicable.

I will fill in the blanks and make any notes if there are any changes from my initial expected info. For me it is easier to make a change to existing format rather then get tripped on something that I wasn't expecting trying to keep up and miss the next part. If you plan ahead, a lot of that info should be available to to you so you are not calling in blind.
 
Last edited:
I never did the craft or other such methods, just wrote it down as it came, short hand is your friend, drop the 1s off the start of frequencies. I think the biggest thing is mental, or if a fix comes up that you weren't ready for, "say again" or "could you spell dagit for me", no biggie.
 
your goal is to be on the mic button 1/16 millisecond after the controller says the last digit in the squawk (then give a flawless readback, faster than he gave you the clearance)!
 
I had printed up a bunch of 5.5x8.5 sheets of paper like Shawn did.
I just filled in the blanks but went shorthand compared to him
Writing it down mine would have been:
FUL
SNS V25 FUL -D->
(Up Arrow) [Altitude in hundreds] 110/10
127.15
4521

After flying IFR for a while it just got written down on a scratch pad and 95% of the time was

AF ^ 30 110/10 127.15 4521
 
Last edited:
I was so worried about this and never thought it would ever be easy, but it eventually is. I use CRAFT as well. Works great!
 
When I'm chillin at a Class C and call up for vfr FF the format is typically the same, albeit the routing is usually not as 'complicated'.
 
I didn't find copying clearances on the ground all that hard. I use a shorthand not that different from EdFred's.

I occasionally get chided for leaving out "heading" during read back (as in "turn left 290" instead of "turn left heading 290"), but the only part that's really been unpleasant is "hold for IFR release expect 1 0 minutes delay."

Amended clearances, well that's another story. Might be easier with an autopilot, but it sucks hand flying.
 
James331 said:
I never did the craft or other such methods, just wrote it down as it came, short hand is your friend, drop the 1s off the start of frequencies. I think the biggest thing is mental, or if a fix comes up that you weren't ready for, "say again" or "could you spell dagit for me", no biggie.
Click to expand...
Same with me. I never used CRAFT. I just copy it like I would for an ATIS
 
AggieMike88 said:
As an aspiring instrument pilot (will be wrapping this journey up this fall), I'd like to brush up on listening to Clearance Delivery and copying it all down when CD is in "80 words a second and gusting to 120" mode.

Any suggestions on where to tune into on LiveATC in order to hear an active clearance delivery frequency?
Click to expand...

Easy Pleasy....

Tune into Jackson Hole's Live ATC feed any day at 7 AM mountain time... During the week it is 4-5 majors and numerous fractionals getting clearances..

On Sunday morning there are 12 major and a kazillion other IFR's getting stuff.... Now, to be up front, it is not a true CD but acts just like one with rapid fire language ...

http://www.liveatc.net/flisten.php?mount=kjac&icao=kjac

Keep in mind, I blend ground ( CD), tower and ZCL center ( departure ) on the same feed..;)
 
I actually did this for my flight training. I would listen to philly clearance, seems like during there pushes there is a lot of activity, and they don't have the data links in the planes there(it seems with all the talking). I live in the north east and fly out of danbury and almost never get an as filed clearance, doing this helped me so much it's just one more thing you won't have to worry about afterwords. I highly recommend it and recommend using the CRAFT acronym.
 
CRAFT is what I was taught and still use, filling in the spaces with shorthand much like Ed's. No V; if I'm given a void time, it goes somewhere on the side of the page.

Agree that LiveATC isn't very useful since the main challenge comes when you have to edit the FP you've already entered to make it match what you've been given. The 480 makes that fairly easy, but I imagine the GTN 650/750 are even easier.
 
I used to really struggle with this as well. But then read about CRAFT and started using that. Over the course of about a month, I started trying to anticipate and pre-write as much as I could. This is exactly what Shawn describes above. Since then I've never had to ask for a repeat and get "Read back correct" every time.
 
azure said:
CRAFT is what I was taught and still use, filling in the spaces with shorthand much like Ed's. No V; if I'm given a void time, it goes somewhere on the side of the page.

Agree that LiveATC isn't very useful since the main challenge comes when you have to edit the FP you've already entered to make it match what you've been given. The 480 makes that fairly easy, but I imagine the GTN 650/750 are even easier.
Click to expand...

Gns480 is what I have as well. And you're spot on that edits are and easy task.
 
CRAFT here also, but with some shorthand learned long ago.

The bitchy stuff is waypoints I don't know the identifier for, somewhere along the way (just write the word and then ask), and well that's about it.

The numerical shorthand I've done forever is with lines above, below, or both around altitudes. A line above means "at or below" (it's a "ceiling line"), below means "at or above", and both means a hard assigned altitude.

I often leave the double line off.

I've also gotten screwed up on CRAFT once in a while and just write it Ed style off to the side and fix it afterward. As long as I copied it correctly and understood it, I don't get too hung up at the moment of writing what it looks like on the paper, but I do like it a certain way to refer to it later on.

I've seen other people use arrows or whatever for the oddballs of "below" or "above".

The line thing comes in more handy for crossing restrictions enroute, than in most departure clearances.
 
The best for me on LiveATC was:

KBOS Clearance Delivery (121.650). I listened to it on the way to and from work.
 
Pick an airport with SIDs and STARs that you're familiar with. In your case, I think you're out of KDTO, right? TONS of SIDs and STARs for the greater DFW area. Pick a busy, towered airport like KADS or Alliance or something where LiveATC has its CD frequency and you'll be able to get a lot of practice.

If you can get good at copying other people's clearances, where you have no idea what to expect, then copying one you filed will be cake. As others said, FF is super nice because they email you as soon as your routing is determined. So you at least know that much and if there are any weird waypoints you'll expect it and already have the spelling. So easy it's like cheating.

As far as shorthand, your brain will come up with something on the fly... but I generally use RV for radar vectors and I write bars around altitudes (which are in thousands like 8, 10 or 2.5). If they give me an expected altitude (and they usually do), I write it and a /10 for "in 10 minutes".

I too sometimes leave off the bars because it's almost always "climb and maintain" - I'd write a bar above or below if it were something else.

You don't even have to practice copying the clearances all the time. Even before I started IR training I would drive to work listening to KAPA on LiveATC and after a while I got the rhythm of the clearance and pretty much knew what procedures were usually assigned from my home field. Everyone is nerdy about something and that's just the kind of nerd I am. I still like to listen in on KAPA while driving in traffic. It keeps my brain more awake than listening to music or AM radio or something. :dunno: :D
 
Last edited:
Practicing my clearance copying by looking for busy GA airports in IFR/MVFR conditions.

That said, is it kosher to ask CD to deliver the clearance slowly? I can't even read my own shorthand most of the time...
 
Here's a document I find useful to copy clearances and enroute changes.
 

Attachments

  • CRAFT.doc
    30 KB · Views: 38
labbadabba said:
That said, is it kosher to ask CD to deliver the clearance slowly? I can't even read my own shorthand most of the time...
Click to expand...

Yes

"...ready to copy, Student Pilot"...or "new pilot"

Although you may not actually be either, that indicates to ATC that you are not a professional Jet Jockey and they will be sure to slow down and that you understand the clearance. They do not wanna repeat any more than you wanna ask again.
 
Last edited:
MAKG1 said:
Since when does a student pilot get an instrument clearance?
Click to expand...

Meh, was thinking instrument student pilot but hey, he could be working on PPL and instrument concurrently!


...hey, look over there...COLE SLAW!
 
Last edited:
Departing class C VFR requires contacting and obtaining clearance, does it not. I used CRAFT when landing class C as part of my PPL.
 
No. Some Class C's require you to contact CD prior to departure, some do not.

It is not a clearance into the airspace. It may contain some restrictions. It does not conform to CRAFT. Or at least not very much of it.

For instance, you will never hear a clearance to any specific point, so your "C" will always be empty.

Departing Monterey (after contacting Ground -- CD is for IFR departures at that airport), I get told not to turn prior to crossing Hwy 1. That's all; just noise abatement procedures.

Departing Fresno, I get an altitude restriction below 2000 to separate from VFR arrivals (which are over 2500). And that's all.

Departing Oakland, I get nothing except "remain clear of Class B." That's an anti-clearance.

Landing at Class C requires nothing more than contacting Approach 20 miles out and landing as though it were Class D otherwise. You may get restrictions, but there is no clearance required until you touch pavement.
 
Last edited:
Yep, instrument student still trying perfect (and read) my own shorthand...
 
labbadabba said:
Practicing my clearance copying by looking for busy GA airports in IFR/MVFR conditions.

That said, is it kosher to ask CD to deliver the clearance slowly? I can't even read my own shorthand most of the time...
Click to expand...

Yes and not just that, you can tell them to say it again.

In my experience, which includes filing with ForeFlight to/from some busy Class C & Class D airports with DPs and STARs, copying has just not been as bad as I imagined during training. Also most airports that use a CD freq, including KAPA, read clearances at a reasonable pace. When all services are combined on tower freq and there are lots of things happening, expect the controller to go fast. Record the clearance if necessary - there's no law saying you have to read it back immediately. But my guess is that 95% of the time it will be no big deal.

When there are DPs and STARs available, I peruse them in FF and file the best ones I can find that apply & take me in the right direction. This used to be more of a PITA than it is now since FF came out with its procedure navigator feature.

Attention Tyson: FF could make this better by creating a filter to eliminate "Turbojet Only" procedures.

I file it with FF and FF sends me an email with my routing. So now I have the C and the R of CRAFT already known. And the other stuff is not hard to copy at all.

My bet is that copying clearances turns out to be easier than imagined.
 
Last edited:
petrolero said:
Yes and not just that, you can tell them to say it again.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the reply. Where I get hung up is when they provide a clearance with lots of waypoints beyond the DP, even just writing:

Cleared to ABC airport
via Example1 Departure, V18, D-> SCOOBY, D-> DOOBY, cross DOOBY at or above 5,000, V28, then AF
Climb and Maintain 3,000, ex 5000/10
Contact Departure at 128.72
Squawk 1234

I can get the shorthand for the climb, maintain, cross, direct, at or above/below... that kind of stuff, but when I have to write out the name of the DP or the name of the intersections I can get bogged down especially if they follow it up with an altitude restriction.

Real world flying GA, how often do we get a clearance like that?
 
labbadabba said:
Thanks for the reply. Where I get hung up is when they provide a clearance with lots of waypoints beyond the DP, even just writing:

Cleared to ABC airport
via Example1 Departure, V18, D-> SCOOBY, D-> DOOBY, cross DOOBY at or above 5,000, V28, then AF
Climb and Maintain 3,000, ex 5000/10
Contact Departure at 128.72
Squawk 1234

I can get the shorthand for the climb, maintain, cross, direct, at or above/below... that kind of stuff, but when I have to write out the name of the DP or the name of the intersections I can get bogged down especially if they follow it up with an altitude restriction.

Real world flying GA, how often do we get a clearance like that?
Click to expand...

I've never received an initial clearance with lots of random waypoints, but I have heard them on LiveATC lots of times - and the controller almost apologetically says "I have a full route clearance for you." That lets the pilot know to expect a long one. The controller then reads it slowly and many times they go ahead and spell the obscure 5-letter waypoints or unexpected VORs.

I have heard those same pilots go back and forth requesting spellings and so forth until they have it all correct and can read it back. In no case did the controller get chippy about it - he knew the pilot couldn't possibly know how to spell the names of the waypoints based on pronunciation alone. I've heard this scenario several times.

I have received clearances different than what I filed several times - but in my case FF told me what I was about to get so it was expected (and it's almost always the same changes anyway so I'm used to them). I have so far only received crossing restrictions when en route. I get an initial & expect altitude every time so I 'expect' that. :D

Oddball clearances may happen but when they do, the controller knows s/he is throwing a curveball and, from what I've heard, is very helpful.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top