LiveATC.net: "No separation services provided" by ATC in class bravo airspace?

[jeff0000]

I was listening to the Phoenix TRACON on liveatc.net and I thought I heard a controller say "no separation services provided" to a VFR aircraft that was cleared into the Phoenix bravo airspace.

Is ATC allowed to not provide separation services to VFR aircraft in a class bravo? I thought it was mandatory?

 

[denverpilot]

Probably “Cleared for the XXX approach, no radar separation services provided.”

Commonly used for VFR practice Instrument approaches in some areas.

We’ve had a number of threads on it here recently.

 

[jeff0000]

Does that mean that VFR traffic have to coordinate with other VFR / IFR traffic that also might be shooting the same approach for the same runway? I'm still learning the ropes of ATC and approaches.

 

[Mike Smith]

I “think” what it means is, if you didn’t file and you just want to practice the approach, the obligation to see and avoid is still on you.

 

[Clip4]

The aircraft was descending out of the Class B on the approach unless someone was doing a practice approach into the primary airport. At that point, standard no separation was given.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Does that mean that VFR traffic have to coordinate with other VFR / IFR traffic that also might be shooting the same approach for the same runway? I'm still learning the ropes of ATC and approaches.

No. It just means, the VFR aircraft practicing the approach is not receiving full IFR separation. It's more detailed, but AIM 4-4-11 is a start. There are nuances, but keeping it simple, VFR aircraft are provided separation which is, depending on airspace, either more relaxed or nonexistent compared to IFR aircraft.

Everything that can be is still being coordinated.

 

[Velocity173]

Does that mean that VFR traffic have to coordinate with other VFR / IFR traffic that also might be shooting the same approach for the same runway? I'm still learning the ropes of ATC and approaches.

This is probably what you heard:

“(Aircraft identification) MAINTAIN VFR, PRACTICE APPROACH APPROVED, NO SEPARATION SERVICES PROVIDED.”

Although Class Bs provide sep for VFRs in the B and in some cases provide IFR sep (except 500 ft vert) for VFRs doing IAPs outside the B, not all airports outside the B get IFR sep service. They’ll still provide FF right up to the point they release you to CTAF but after that, you’re on you’re own.

If they provide sep for a VFR conducting an IAP approach they get “maintain VFR” but when the time comes to excecute the IAP, the controller will actually clear the aircraft for the approach just like they would for an IFR.

 

[jeff0000]

This is probably what you heard:

“(Aircraft identification) MAINTAIN VFR, PRACTICE APPROACH APPROVED, NO SEPARATION SERVICES PROVIDED.”

Although Class Bs provide sep for VFRs in the B and in some cases provide IFR sep (except 500 ft vert) for VFRs doing IAPs outside the B, not all airports outside the B get IFR sep service. They’ll still provide FF right up to the point they release you to CTAF but after that, you’re on you’re own.

If they provide sep for a VFR conducting an IAP approach they get “maintain VFR” but when the time comes to excecute the IAP, the controller will actually clear the aircraft for the approach just like they would for an IFR.

Do you mean that "practice approach approved" is different than an approach clearance? Does the former imply that ATC will not adjust the VFR (or IFR) aircraft's speed to maintain a certain minimum distance for wake turbulence?

 

[Velocity173]

Do you mean that "practice approach approved" is different than an approach clearance? Does the former imply that ATC will not adjust the VFR (or IFR) aircraft's speed to maintain a certain minimum distance for wake turbulence?

Yep, two different things. The “practice approach approved” phraseology is for VFR aircraft conducting IAPs at secondary airports where no sep exists.

If the facility has a Letter To Airman (LTA) that authorizes IFR sep (except 500 vert) to VFR into secondary airports, then the pilot will still be instructed to maintain VFR but a clearance for the IAP will be given. In the later, additional wake turb sep will go with that.