Why wouldn't this work, vs the >$1000 bags being sold? I'd like to get one that would accept a laptop and anything smaller. https://www.amazon.com/FLASLD-Firep...lpcontext&ref_=fplfs&smid=A2ALSQ2QMV8GYY&th=1
I used to have a bag like that for rc lipos but ultimately ended up using a metal toolbox. I remember one guy using an ammo box with a lawnmower muffler as flame arrester. What problem are you trying to solve?
1) Lipo bags contain the heat and flames, but not the smoke and noxious vapors of combustion of the battery. 2) Putting a lipo in sealed metal container is making a BOMB. It will contain the pressure, until it bursts. A lot of years ago a person on one of the radio control forums caused lipo fire with the pack in a metal ammo can. The explosion was huge, in an airplane, it would have taken out everyone inside. And, BTW, they had ventilated the can before hand, a lipo fire generates a LOT of gases.
I’m no expert on Lipo handling, but in general when there is a two order of magnitude price difference, you generally get what you pay for…
There is also a lot less ppl who will but anything to address the question at the higher price point.
We do a lot of things in aviation to prevent potential problems; we don’t always wait for one. Airlines carry these bags, they must know something. I figured any one of my flights has 12 lipo batteries on board between the pilots and passengers. We are not going to be throwing a crackling, smoking battery out the door at 350.
Maybe slow down and then throw it out? Has there been a GA crash in the last decade caused by a LiPo battery fire? If not, might fall in the category of meteor helmets.
https://www.forbes.com/sites/suzann...-battery-fire-smoke-airplane/?sh=5c493947bb04 FAA: Lithium Battery Incidents On Planes Now Happening More Than Once Per Week Most likely a greater risk than getting hit by a meteor. Probably good to have a plan in mind, but maybe not a bag. Perhaps an insulated glove and a functioning window may be $$ better spent. Too much unknown junk with crappy lithium battery management circuits from overseas is not helping lower the risk. Also keeping vape pens and bare lithium batteries plus keys out of your PAX pockets will help too. 250 total references to "lithium" on the database search below. A number in GA. Examples include: https://www.google.com/search?q=lithium+site:https://aviation-safety.net https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/279551 "The pilot reported that the helicopter was about to take off with a flight nurse, paramedic, and a patient onboard when she noticed a flash and flame reflection on the front left windscreen immediately followed by screams and the cabin filling with smoke. The pilot immediately reduced the throttle, pulled the fuel shutoff valve, and applied full rotor brake. The paramedic on board's flight suit was on fire. The flight nurse on board managed to open the helicopter's right-side door, unbuckle the paramedic, and pull her from the helicopter. The flight nurse extinguished the flames, called for additional help, and began cutting away the burned flight jacket and flight suit from the paramedic. In the paramedic's left chest flight suit pocket were keys and a burnt lithium battery." https://aviation-safety.net/wikibase/277820 "NetJets flight 1I673, a Cessna 560XL Citation XLS, diverted to Atlanta, Georgia, USA, following a thermal runaway of a lithium battery in a vape pen on board the aircraft."
Also, 4"x6" meteor hits suburban house in NJ this month. https://abcnews.go.com/US/scientist...rash-landed-new-jersey-home/story?id=99285587
I don't know about what Dave is flying, but what I'm flying has no doors or windows that are openable in flight at any altitude; we can be on the ground from the flight levels in about 5 minutes but that's a long time when you're on fire. We carry the lithium fire bags, smoke hoods, and of course there's always the built in oxygen masks if necessary. Gotta keep the hoses away from the fire and not go into pure-oxygen mode though. Procedure for a lithium battery fire is get it in the bag AND execute an emergency descent AND throw it out the door as soon as practicable once on the ground.
I'm not sure how I'm going to get behind my panel in flight to rip out the lithium-ion backup batteries for my GI-275s so the bag/window questions is kinda moot in my case. Not saying it can't happen, it obviously does, but I oversee hundreds of devices with lithium-ion batteries both professionally and at home and I've yet to see one so much as overheat and smoke. Most often when it does happen it's during charging. Beyond that usually you see someone did something dumb like short out exposed contacts with some metal object(like putting a battery in their pocket with keys) or punctured the casing. Anyway, I'd be more worried about the 40+ year old wiring and fuel lines that a lot of us are running around with than my iPad.
Ah, I did not know you had an aviation application in mind. As for the $20 bags, buy one and short out an 18650 and see how it does and report back? Or look on youtube...
thanks for the YT’s, I’ll check them out. Like Kent, there will be no door opening for at least 10 minutes.
I wouldn’t be worried about iPads. It’s really the eBay/Alibaba/gas station crap someone else has that I would be concerned about. Good lipo electronic battery management protocol is a thing.
One thing, at least the video of the ammo can, those look like LiPO4 cells, not the LiPos used in phones and tablets and RC models.
Is there any / enough info here saying a handheld halon extinguisher would have desired effect on a laptop etc Li battery fire? https://www.fire.tc.faa.gov/pdf/systems/May16Meeting/Karp-0516-LithiumBattery.pdf
As far as bags go, I’ve pretty much accepted there is no way to snuff the fire or even stop the out gassing. The oxygen masks & emergency descent will have to save us there. I would like to be able insulate the cabin surfaces from igniting, or at least delay that if possible.
In flight, general aviation planes, CO 2 is the only way to go. Cools the reaction and surrounding surfaces, denies oxygen to area, and produces no cloud of powder to inhibit vision. If you have vacuum gyro's, will not damage them, or interfere with their function before you land. Ventilation is good enough in non pressurized planes to assure no lack of oxygen to the crew and pax. No cleanup of extinguisher residue, it simply flows away with the air. We changed to CO 2 30+ years ago when we were having repeated carb fires in cold weather starting. Proper cleanup ruined the day, or delayed the long cross country vacation. Non of those fires were in the cabin, but the Lithium fires we are talking of here, will be. Mountainstoskys just bought a CO 2 after a long evaluation, and I completely agree with his decision. I very much dislike Halon, agree with GeorgeC.
Start at 4:24. Is there something I'm missing here? My understanding is that Halon won't harm instruments, won't impede visibility, won't leave any residue, and won't asphixiate. What's not to like (aside from destroying the Ozone, of course)? YMMV.
Large edit here, mostly deleted, apologies to Pauley below. I have discharged one small Halon extinguisher, and was well aware of the strong acidic odor that resulted. Hydrofluoric acid is an amazing powerful product. I have discharged hundreds of pounds of CO 2 over the last 60 years, with no after effects. I currently have a large one in my garage, and a smaller one in the kitchen, middle size in the basement shop. CO 2 is not my automatic go to device, I have large pressurized water in both the garage and basement, and conventional dry chemical both places. I have been well trained by my past employer, and choose the product that fits the need. ADDED The use in aircraft is best, in spite of the reasons that I dislike. My success in aircraft use has been in engine fires, not in flight. My only in flight fire was electrical, and stopped by turning off the master switch.
The greenhouse gas warming potential of my Halon 1211 extinguisher is about equal to filling the plane 3 times. If there's an in-flight fire I won't be worrying about that. Re: fog I can't see how this would be worse in a non-pressurized aircraft than a pressurized one. If the ventilation isn't good enough then the CO2 extinguisher is even worse. Are you referring to powder-based extinguishers? Those are obviously unacceptable. Looking at the demos in the video above the fog dissipates extremely quickly even in enclosed spaces. There's a reason Halons have been "practically the only fire extinguishing agents used in civil transport aircraft." (https://www.faa.gov/regulations_pol...cfm/go/document.information/documentID/888491) Using CO2 on the ground obviously makes more sense. But for the in-aircraft extinguisher I don't understand why you would use CO2.
Here's another good article on why CO2 is inferior to Halon for aviation: https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/pdf/EAA_FIRE5.pdf As far as I can tell Aircraft Spruce doesn't even sell CO2 extinguishers for cockpit use.
That all makes great sense anywhere but aviation. How many times have you used CO2 in an enclosed space the size of an aircraft cabin? The FAA, NFPA, EAA, everyone recommends against using CO2 in aviation. Quote from AC 20-42D:
I've seen maybe a half dozen lithium battery fires as part of RC flying, one of them mine. They were all caused by one of three things - overcharge, often by using the wrong charge settings; short; impact damage that punctured the bag. None of the batteries had any protection circuits, and none had any special packaging. My recommendation would be to avoid carrying any vape pens. They're $5 devices with a lithium battery and just the right amount of nichrome wire to start a fire, with pretty much no attention paid to safety in the design. I don't know if there's enough energy in them to quickly harm an airliner, but I'd think enough to screw your day up in a small plane. I don't think Halon would put out a lithium fire. Pretty sure the only extinguisher rated for it used powdered copper as the agent, to smother it. I've used Halon to put out two fires, one real, one test, and while it would be a better alternative to a fire in the airplane, I'm not sure by how much. The agent itself isn't a big deal, but the byproduct of putting out even a small fire is a large quantity of acrid and opaque gas, and if you ventilate the space the fire can flash back up again. I think it might be a bit like the rescue breathers they gave to submarine crews in ww2. In theory, it'll save you, but it's pretty rare that it works out that way. Would love to hear of a success story of a fire in a small aircraft, put out with Halon, and then a good landing. It would make me feel better about a possible successful outcome.
Getting back to this question, Dave - No, a halon (or any) fire extinguisher is not sufficient to deal with a Lithium battery thermal runaway. That entire paper is focusing on the gases produced by a battery under thermal runaway, and seems to conclude that an extinguisher wouldn't even put that out. However, the real issue is that they're only looking at the ventilation gases. Even if you do put out the flames, that does NOT take the battery out of the thermal runaway condition! While a CO2 or water extinguisher would slow it down momentarily, that won't stop it either. Pretty much the only reliable way to "stop" a battery fire once it's in thermal runaway is to let it burn itself up. Preferably, you get it off your airplane before it gets too far into the process. Makes me wonder about ETOPS, since most of those fire bags are only rated for 1/2 hour. Do they just carry 4 different sizes of them and put each bag into the next as it begins to fail?
All I know is that every time I buy a new power tool these days the first 30 pages of the manual explain how to recharge the batteries without burning my house down.
While it is true that water will not stop the thermal runaway condition, it can still be a very effective tool with a lithium-ion battery fire. The water can control flames, prevent adjacent battery cells from lighting off, and prevent the fire from spreading to other parts of the aircraft. The water cools and cooling is good when you've got a device trying to melt your airplane from together. Of course, it's not likely you'll have as much water as you wish you'd had, but you might as well use what you've got. The FAA has published that they advise: 1. hitting it with a halon or water extinguisher to control the flames, 2. then use water to further cool it. Covered here: https://www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/files/hazmat/resources/lithium_batteries/SAFO09013.pdf If I had a halon extinguisher on board, and the crew to operate it, I would sure the hell give it an attempt. Maybe a reason to carry extra ice? Dual purpose: passenger drinks and iPhone (whoops, I mean Android, don't want to offend Kent) fires! Any liquid you've got to help with cooling is worth using, dump all the passenger sodas, everything you've got that isn't flammable (steer clear of alcohol). The FAA is more of the "control the fire, cool it, with whatever you've got" camp then they are the "magical fire bag camp" (a device they don't provide guidance on). Gleim dives into that here: https://www.gleimaviation.com/2022/08/30/lithium-ion-battery-fires-and-containment-bags/ Do you have any evidence that suggests ETOPS requires them? AFAIK, the FAA does not require them, and the airlines do it on their own accord. The FAA does not support that the bag be used to control an active lithium ion fire (they don't want crew picking the fire up, they want crew fighting the fire).
Yup... That's what I meant by "slow it down momentarily". Anything you can do to cool it off and slow it down is good, but like I said, that isn't stopping it. You need to get on the ground ASAP. It was Samsung that got a phone banned from the airlines, not Apple. Exactly. That's an excellent article. However, the reality is that we generally would not have enough accessible non-alcoholic liquids on board nor containers large enough to contain the device and some liquid in to even get on the ground. The purpose of the fire bag is to delay lighting other flammable items on board long enough that we can get on the ground and jettison the offending item. No, but I wonder how the airlines that do use the bags deal with a lithium fire on a long over-water leg. Three hours is a long time. Most of them likely do have a reasonable way to drop the offending device in a liquid bath though.
Does anyone know: -is a fire more likely when the device is on? (I turn mine off, vs sleep, as much as possible - thinking it might help) -is a fire more likely when charging? (I try to avoid using my portable lipo battery pack to charge devices while airborne)
Overcharging due to crappy battery voltage and temperature monitoring in the charger/battery pack design. Internal short circuits due to battery quality issues, vibration, or impact. Those would likely be the biggest causes. Most big name consumer stuff is pretty safe. The massive liability drives good engineering design and charging circuits. I'd be more worried about charging your no-name lipo pack than using it to charge a Garmin or iPhone. (That said, LG manufacturing defects caused GM to recall every single Bolt ever made. Combination of both a torn Anode pad and a folded internal separator during LG manufacturing allowed later short circuits to occur). My thoughts for what it's worth: I'd never let a vape pen on the plane. I'd be very hesitant with high power density toys like scooters and hover-boards. I'd also never leave either of those on a charger in the house when I wasn't around. I'd be careful about letting my other battery devices end up where they can be smashed by a sliding seat track or reclining seat back, for example. Thermal runaway occurs after the battery reaches 400 degrees Fahrenheit or so. You want to prevent that from happening. If I saw something start to smoke, I'd toss it out the window. The likelihood of a small device causing a fire or damage on the ground is way less than a burning plane hitting the ground at high velocity. Other than that, I have no problem leaving my phone, iPad, GPS, and ADS-B devices on and charging during flight. YMMV.
When the device is sleeping vs fully powered off? Technically the risk is probably a teeny smidge higher, but only by a negligible amount. I wouldn't worry about that. When it's charging? Definitely. Physical damage can also cause it.
I’ve been leaving all my devices on charge at home -when asleep -when I leave for the day Maybe the additional risk is tiny…or maybe I should change my charging patterns.
Agree 100% with what ElPasso said above. I think to the word. I'd add, just my risk level: My name brand laptops I'm good with leaving on a charger while I'm sleeping. Tool batteries, camera batteries and other random things I only charge when I'm in the house and awake. Model airplane batteries I charge on a non-combustible surface and I keep an eye on them. I don't charge anything while I'm flying.
I charge most of my small stuff (phones, tablets, etc) when I'm sleeping... But it's right next to me. My laptop is charging all day on my desk at work, and it's been many years since Apple had any battery issues - Like, all the way back when their batteries were removable! The smaller something is, the less collateral damage it'll be able to cause, provided it's not sitting on something flammable when you're charging it.
