"line up" vs. "wait behind"

L

locomo

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Are these the same thing? If not, how are they different?

We just received this and some additional questions from someone studying for their upcoming ppl exam - please comment on the thread here or at pilotadvice.com if anyone knows the answers.

thanks!
 
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Define the context? Where did they hear these terms? I don't believe either term is in the written, nor have I heard an examiner touch on them.

I suspect you're talking about a controller using them for ground operations. If that is the case, I would suspect both are very similar.

If someone is worrying about that..they probably need to refocus their studying.
 
The phrase "line up and wait" is used in place of "taxi into position and hold" in other countries. I suspect that "line up" without the "and wait" is just lazy shorthand for the full phrase. I haven't a clue what "wait behind" means other than it might be used in lieu of something like "hold short, number 2 for departure". And AFaIK nothing with "line up" or "wait behind" are standard phraseology in the US and thus shouldn't be a concern to any aspiring US pilot.
 
wow - thanks for the fast replies everyone!!

i'm in the US - Brooklyn to be specific.

i'm a student pilot myself, so i wasn't sure about his questions.. but I neglected to ask him where he is from.. i'll try to find out
 
Dave and Lance of course had a better answer. I don't leave the U.S :)
 
Line Up and Wait is ICAO for position and hold, I believe. No clue about wait behind.
 
The scariest part of the "line up and wait" clearance is that it is used as a last part of a "conditional clearance", the first part of which may have been "after the Airbus lands" which is what I got in Beirut one fine day.

I keep thinking they will have a hell of a wreck over there and change the clearance terminology and usage, simply because the most critical part is said first, and would presumably be the easiest to miss, especially if the crew is not familiar with the local controller's English accent.

gismo said:
The phrase "line up and wait" is used in place of "taxi into position and hold" in other countries. I suspect that "line up" without the "and wait" is just lazy shorthand for the full phrase. I haven't a clue what "wait behind" means other than it might be used in lieu of something like "hold short, number 2 for departure". And AFaIK nothing with "line up" or "wait behind" are standard phraseology in the US and thus shouldn't be a concern to any aspiring US pilot.
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Anybody know if ICAO has the restriction on issuing position and hold clearance like the FAA has now? Just curious.
 
"Line up and wait behind" is ICAO phraseology meaning "line up an wait" (taxi into position and hold) BEHIND landing traffic after it passes. Example: "Line up and wait behind Citation 1-mile final" Conditional clearances like this are not allowed in the US.
 
AWACSEng said:
Anybody know if ICAO has the restriction on issuing position and hold clearance like the FAA has now? Just curious.
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It's not so much a restriction as a procedural change - Here, they still issue position and hold clearances during the day. It'd really mess things up otherwise, since all three runways cross each other...
 
kkoran said:
"Line up and wait behind" is ICAO phraseology meaning "line up an wait" (taxi into position and hold) BEHIND landing traffic after it passes. Example: "Line up and wait behind Citation 1-mile final" Conditional clearances like this are not allowed in the US.
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Interesting. I knew about line up and wait, but not about those kind of conditional clearances. That's pretty scary; besides that, I've always wanted ICAO to change that silly "line up and wait" phrase. "Taxi into position and hold" is much more consistent.
 
sba55 said:
Interesting. I've always wanted ICAO to change that silly "line up and wait" phrase. "Taxi into position and hold" is much more consistent.
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Consistent with WHAT? The US? ICAO won't change ANYTHING to conform to us. WE have been changing to conform to them.

FWIW, IIRC, the US is the only nation that uses "Position and Hold".
 
sba55 said:
I've always wanted ICAO to change that silly "line up and wait" phrase.
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It only sounds silly to you and other people in this country because that's what you learned. "Line up and wait" sounds a little strange the first couple times you hear it, then you get used to it. Remember the whole hooha about Class A, B, C, D, E, G airspace? METARS and TAF? You probably don't remember because you weren't a pilot at that time so all that doesn't sound silly to you. However, TCA and PCA and control zones might sound silly as well as SAs and FTs. It's all what you get accustomed to.
 
"Line up and wait" avoids confusing "Hold short" with "Position and Hold"
 
AuntPeggy said:
"Line up and wait" avoids confusing "Hold short" with "Position and Hold"
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Position and hold sounds pretty straight forward, and I don't see how any US pilot could confuse that with hold short. Or does hold short mean I am supposed to fly 2nm legs instead of 4nm ones?
 
EdFred said:
I don't see how any US pilot could confuse that with hold short.
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Not all pilots who fly in the US are native English speakers. Years ago I had a student from another country who had problems with the difference between "hold short" and "position and hold". He was a very intelligent person and could speak conversational English. However, aviation English was a whole different problem he had to work hard to overcome.
 
Everskyward said:
Not all pilots who fly in the US are native English speakers. Years ago I had a student from another country who had problems with the difference between "hold short" and "position and hold". He was a very intelligent person and could speak conversational English. However, aviation English was a whole different problem he had to work hard to overcome.
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Sounds like more of a language issue, than terminology issue. Might have been Rod Machado who had a student that had trouble turning left when you said left, and right when you said right. His brain just wouldn't process it. But you could say turn towards the lake or barn, or aiport, and he was fine. I don't think terminology is the issue - even in your student's case.
 
EdFred said:
Sounds like more of a language issue, than terminology issue.
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No, it was the fact that the word "hold" is in both instructions. He even mentioned it to me during our discussions about it.
 
Everskyward said:
No, it was the fact that the word "hold" is in both instructions. He even mentioned it to me during our discussions about it.
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Pray to the Flying Spaghetti Monster he never goes for his IR.
 
EdFred said:
Pray to the Flying Spaghetti Monster he never goes for his IR.
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I'm sure he's gone back to his native country by now. He was here on assignment as a journalist and his friend told him he ought to get his private while he was in this country because of the cost. He was only doing it for fun.
 
Greg Bockelman said:
Consistent with WHAT? The US? ICAO won't change ANYTHING to conform to us. WE have been changing to conform to them.

FWIW, IIRC, the US is the only nation that uses "Position and Hold".
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Consistent with other ICAO and FAA lingo. The term "hold" has a defined meaning, doesn't it? So does "taxi".

You get assigned a hold, not a wait. You taxi somewhere, you don't line up. "Taxi into position and hold" doesn't add any additional vocabulary. "Line up" is in addition to "taxi", and "wait" is in addition to "hold". Why do we need to make it more complicated? "Taxi to line up and wait" would be consistent, but it doesn't make a lot of sense.
 
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