Light Sport Aircraft that are IFR

[AggieMike88]

Can anyone point me to a list of Light Sport Aircraft that are IFR certified?

 

[ralarcon]

Can anyone point me to a list of Light Sport Aircraft that are IFR certified?

Many are "IFR" certified, few or none are "IMC" certified. I did some "IFR" training in my Flight Design CTLS.

Cheers

 

[GeorgeC]

There was the Zodiac...

 

[AggieMike88]

Many are "IFR" certified, few or none are "IMC" certified. I did some "IFR" training in my Flight Design CTLS.

Cheers

Then I will amend my request to ask for a list that permit me to accept an IFR clearance and fly through (mild and tame) IMC conditions

 

[citizen5000]

Can anyone point me to a list of Light Sport Aircraft that are IFR certified?

Evector SportStar MAX http://www.planeandpilotmag.com/article/evektor-sportstar-max-an-lsa-for-all-seasons/#.WL2STH_qphU
Zodiac CH650 http://www.zenithair.com/zodiac/ch650/index.html

The ASTM says no IFR for SLSA but the FAA has no such restriction as long as the SLSA maker says it's okay. http://light-sport-hangar-flyin.blogspot.com/2010/08/weve-all-seen-ads-full-ifr-equipped-lsa.html

 

[eetrojan]

If the current ASTM standard says no IFR for SLSA, regardless of what the FAA says, wouldn't that preclude the SLSA maker from saying it's OK?

I could be wrong, but ... It's my understanding that the ASTM standard was changed around 2010, and therefore, only a very limited number of SLSAs made before 2010 are legal to fly IFR while in actual IMC conditions.

I trained in one and actually flew it in IMC conditions a few times with my instrument-rated CFI.

 

[paflyer]

Then I will amend my request to ask for a list that permit me to accept an IFR clearance and fly through (mild and tame) IMC conditions

Why? You can buy a tricked out PA28/C172 for a lot less than the crappiest LSA...

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

Any E-AB or normal certificate LSA with the appropriate instruments?

 

[James331]

Probably could make a some of the older real planes that just happen to be light enough, like a 8A or Aeronca could be made IFR/IMC if you wanted to.

 

[eetrojan]

The ASTM is not a regulatory org. And most SLSA makers are not members.

I'm no expert, but I believe the ASTM standards are effectively "regulatory" because of the FARs.

Under FAR 21.190(c), it looks like meeting the provisions of an identified "consensus standard" is a condition of getting a "special" airworthiness certificate.

No real knowledge here though.

For the SLSA makers you say are not using the ASTM standards, which makers are you talking about and what other "consensus standard" do they use to satisfy the FAA?

 

[mondtster]

Any E-AB or normal certificate LSA with the appropriate instruments?

What do the operating limitations say? It should tell you what operating conditions it can be used under.

The Legend Cub I'm familiar with says something to the effect of "Day VFR and if appropriately equipped, Night VFR." There was no mention of IFR, so I read this as those operations are not approved regardless of how the airplane is equipped.

 

[citizen5000]

I'm no expert, but I believe the ASTM standards are effectively "regulatory" because of the FARs.

Under FAR 21.190(c), it looks like meeting the provisions of an identified "consensus standard" is a condition of getting a "special" airworthiness certificate.

No real knowledge here though.

For the SLSA makers you say are not using the ASTM standards, which makers are you talking about and what other "consensus standard" do they use to satisfy the FAA?

ASTM are the consensus standards SLSA are supposed to follow. But I am not sure if ASTM is a regulatory organization since they publish "voluntary standards." The FAA issues the Airworthiness Certs for SLSA and says SLSA must obey ADs issued by the FAA.

Some think most SLSA makers simply placard against IFR use due to the ASTM vote in 2010 but the aircraft's themselves are capable of IFR flight if so equipped. The Sling and the Zodiak websites tout IFR capability.

Here is an interesting discussion on the subject: http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=136993

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

What do the operating limitations say? It should tell you what operating conditions it can be used under.

The Legend Cub I'm familiar with says something to the effect of "Day VFR and if appropriately equipped, Night VFR." There was no mention of IFR, so I read this as those operations are not approved regardless of how the airplane is equipped.

More than a few E-AB have op-lims that allow IFR. https://www.eaa.org/en/eaa/aviation...ions/equipping-a-homebuilt-for-ifr-operations

 

[mondtster]

More than a few E-AB have op-lims that allow IFR. https://www.eaa.org/en/eaa/aviation...ions/equipping-a-homebuilt-for-ifr-operations

E-AB, yes. But we're talking S-LSA, no? I'm not sure what would be in the operating limitations for an E-LSA but the operating limitations you receive with the airworthiness certificate is where I'd be looking to determine if IFR operations would be approved or not.

 

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

E-AB, yes. But we're talking S-LSA, no? I'm not sure what would be in the operating limitations for an E-LSA but the operating limitations you receive with the airworthiness certificate is where I'd be looking to determine if IFR operations would be approved or not.

The original post asked about Light Sport Aircraft and did not specify how said LSA should or should not be certificated.

Can anyone point me to a list of Light Sport Aircraft that are IFR certified?

 

[eetrojan]

Here is an interesting discussion on the subject: http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=136993

Thanks. As related to S-LSAs, that post you quote has a pretty succinct description of the current circumstances:

"Orignally [In 2004], it was perfectly legal for an appropriately rated pilot to fly an appropriately equipped SLSA in IMC. The original ASTM consensus standards were silent on the subject of IFR. Then, in 2010, the ASTM F37 Committee voted to amend the consensus standards to prohibit flight in IMC. Every SLSA manufactured since then has had operating limitations prohibiting IFR operations."

That makes sense to me since the "IFR Equipped" Evektor Sportstar I flew in IMC a few times, with my appropriately rated instructor, was made before 2010.

 

[mondtster]

The original post asked about Light Sport Aircraft and did not specify how said LSA should or should not be certificated.

Indeed, but I feel my point still stands. The operator should check the operating limitations that exist for the airplane in question, be it E-AB, S-LSA, or E-LSA. That's going to be the governing document for these airplanes since there is no type certificate to specify what can and cannot be done with a specific airplane. All of the E-AB operating limitations I've ever looked at essentially say that IFR flight is ok if you have the minimum required instruments. That has not been the case for the S-LSA.

My initial point wasn't really intended to pick a nit or bust your chops, more of an expansion on your comment.

 

[Cogito]

A year+ old thread, I know, but have any of you moved your SLSA to ELSA and are now flying it in (light) IMC? My SLSA qualifies for IFR under 91.205 and the operating limitations don't preclude IMC or IFR, but my POH prohibits IMC. I was able to fly IFR in the system enough to get my IFR rating, but can't fly in the clouds in this plane right now.

So the question again: Are any of you flying in IMC with a plane moved from SLSA to ELSA?

 

[Shepherd]

A year+ old thread, I know, but have any of you moved your SLSA to ELSA and are now flying it in (light) IMC? My SLSA qualifies for IFR under 91.205 and the operating limitations don't preclude IMC or IFR, but my POH prohibits IMC. I was able to fly IFR in the system enough to get my IFR rating, but can't fly in the clouds in this plane right now.

So the question again: Are any of you flying in IMC with a plane moved from SLSA to ELSA?

Is this a trick question?
Are you an FAA informant?
Short answer: Occasionally, but not deliberately.

 

[Cogito]

Is this a trick question?
Are you an FAA informant?
Short answer: Occasionally, but not deliberately.

Why do you think this is a trick question? It's safe and legal as far as I know, just wanted to know if other pilots were doing it before I switched my plane from SLSA to ELSA.

 

[Shepherd]

What with all the calling the FAA on people going on around here lately.
I've flown IFR in an SLSA, but it was never intentional. I have gotten caught out, thank you Weather Service, and flown on to a safe landing a number of times.
My kvetch with SLSA craft is the fragility of many of them. They are not going to stand up to serious turbulence.
But there are exceptions. The Arion LS-1 immediately comes to mind. 180mph Vne, and can handle a mess of "G"s, plus/minus.
That being said, there are a number of "real" airplanes I won't fly in really bad weather. Just mho.

 

[Ravioli]

Is this a unicorn type question? Are any of you flying in IMC with a plane moved from SLSA to ELSA?

I didn't think you got a second bite at the apple and the plane, once issued an airworthiness certificate, cannot change between Sport and Exp.

Not sure where I developed that thought.

 

[Stan Cooper]

A year+ old thread, I know, but have any of you moved your SLSA to ELSA and are now flying it in (light) IMC? My SLSA qualifies for IFR under 91.205 and the operating limitations don't preclude IMC or IFR, but my POH prohibits IMC. I was able to fly IFR in the system enough to get my IFR rating, but can't fly in the clouds in this plane right now.

So the question again: Are any of you flying in IMC with a plane moved from SLSA to ELSA?

I converted my 2008 AMD CH601XLi-B from SLSA to ELSA, and the new ELSA operating limitations (November 29, 2016) state:

Day VFR flight is authorized.

Night flight operations are authorized if the instruments specified in FAR 91.205(c) are installed, operational, and maintained in accordance with the applicable requirements of part 91.

Instrument flight operations are authorized if the instruments specified in FAR 91.205(d) are installed, operational, and maintained in accordance with the applicable requirements of part 91. All maintenance or inspection of this equipment must be recorded in the aircraft maintenance records and include the following items: date, work performed, and name and certificate number of person returning the aircraft to service.

My airplane was equipped for flying in IMC when it was built in 2008, and the required instruments specified in FAR 91.205(d) are installed, operational, and maintained in accordance with the applicable requirements of part 91.

 

[Ravioli]

Here's a thread where a DAR clarifies the rules about LSA airworthiness certitication:

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=166044&highlight=e-lsa+s-lsa

 

[Stan Cooper]

Here's a thread where a DAR clarifies the rules about LSA airworthiness certification:

http://www.vansairforce.com/community/showthread.php?t=166044&highlight=e-lsa+s-lsa

Rob, I didn't see anything in that Van's thread about LSAs being legal for flight in IMC (the subject of this thread).

My 2008 AMD CH601XLi-B Zodiac was widely advertised as "IFR certified" as illustrated in this ad.

My understanding (and I could be mistaken) is that in 2010, there was a change brought about by a failure of the ASTM working group to come up with a standard for SLSAs to be operated in IMC since by definition Light Sport aircraft operated by sport pilots couldn't be flown in IMC.

However, there is nothing in the regs that prevents a private pilot with a current medical certificate or the alternative BasicMed and an instrument rating from flying an ELSA in IMC if the ELSA meets the requirements of FAR 91.205(d) and the operating limitations for the ELSA stipulate that instrument flight operations are authorized.

 

[Ravioli]

@Stan Cooper -- Sorry, that thread over there was specific to which Air Worthiness Certificates an LSA could have, and if/when they could be changed.

 

[Bell206]

before I switched my plane from SLSA to ELSA.

FYI: the new Operating Limitations you receive with your amended AWC after you convert to ELSA will be the authority on the flight conditions you can operate in. Might inquire with the DAR/FSDO prior to converting to see on IFR ops. If your aircraft conforms its required SLSA configuration with a current condition inspection, the conversion to ELSA is administrative with a visual check by the DAR/FSDO.

 

[Lon33]

I’ve read that the ASTM standards for LSAs “prohibit” flight in IMC, but I’ve never seen the actual standard that does that, and I’ve looked for it more than once. If anyone has a copy, please post it, because as of right now, I don’t think there is any such prohibition.

I’ve also read that the ASTM committee was going to meet this month to consider a provision that might expressly allow properly equipped LSAs to be flown in IMC (by Instrument rated pilots). Does anyone know if that meeting took place, or soon will?

 

[Bell206]

ASTM standards for LSAs “prohibit” flight in IMC, but I’ve never seen the actual standard that does that

FYI: there is not a single standard for LSA rather a dozen in total. In several of the standards there is wording to the affect "limited to VFR flight" which is not the same as "IFR prohibited."

There were a number of meeting/articles over the years on putting an IFR limitation within the standard but I heard of nothing finalized. But remember ASTM standards are only "acceptable" to the FAA and not approved. So when it comes to the type of operations permitted for your LSA it falls to the AWC and its Operating Limitations to approve those types of operations regardless of the standard.

If anyone has a copy, please post it,

All standards whether ASTM, SAE, ISO, or others are not public domain material. They are readily available to those who wish to purchase. Here is a link to the FAA standards listings for LSA and other aircraft. Scroll to the "Industry Standards" header. Those links will take you to the current FAA standard listings: https://www.faa.gov/aircraft/air_cert/design_approvals/small_airplanes/small_airplanes_regs/

Once you find the standard ID number then you can go to ASTM.org where you can read an abstract and purchase. For example, here is ASTM F2245 - 16c:
https://www.astm.org/Standards/F2245.htm

 

[Stan Cooper]

Lon, the ASTM Committee F37 on Light Sport Aircraft staff manager is Joe Koury, and his phone number is 610-832-9804 (email: [email protected]) according to the ASTM website. If anybody knows the current status of the various LSA consensus standards, Mr. Koury should.

This April, 2017 General Aviation News article by Dan Johnson provides a good overview of flying under Instrument Flight Rules in an LSA:

https://generalaviationnews.com/2017/04/17/can-you-fly-ifr-in-an-lsa/

 

[Lon33]

Stan,

Thanks for Joe Koury's contact info. I'm going to call or email him to find out whether the committee is going to address the IMC issue soon.
__________

Bell206,

Your post gave me the lead I needed to find the language that some have interpreted to mean that the ASTM does not approve of flying LSAs in IMC. I know that the ASTM standard are copyrighted, just as you said. But the copyright law Fair Use Doctrine permits me to quote one sentence from the standard, so here it is:

"ASTM F2245 - 16c. [Paragraph] 1.2 This specification is applicable to the design of a light sport aircraft/airplane as defined by regulations and limited to VFR flight."

I interpret this to mean that the specification applies only to LSAs designed and equipped to be flown VFR, because the specification doesn't include features that may be necessary for flight in IMC. The specification does not prohibit -- as some people have thought and said -- LSAs from being flown in IMC or limit LSAs to flight in VMC.

I can't resist pointing out that whoever wrote the paragraph 1.2 made a slight but significant error or typo. "VFR" and "VMC" are not the same thing. "VMC" is a weather condition. "VFR" is a set of rules. No one -- to my knowledge -- has ever said LSAs (even SLSAs) could not be flown under IFR rules in VMC conditions if properly equipped. Indeed, Vans is now offering an RV-12iS that is advertised for Instrument Rating instruction, at least some of which (the long cross-country) must, by regulation, be flown on an IFR flight plan. The Airplane Factory is offering a Sling 2 that is equipped and intended for Instrument training as well.

I agree that whether an LSA may be legally flown in IMC depends on the plane's operating limitations and POH. But I have seen the operating limitations for LSAs that expressly permit flight in IMC if properly equipped.

 

[Stan Cooper]

From the General Aviation News article by Dan Johnson linked in my post above:

In summary, if you are an instrument pilot, and if you are current, and if you have a medical, and if you purchase an aircraft like the Bristell and register it as an ELSA, no regulation prevents you from filing and flying IFR including into IMC.

 

[Lon33]

Stan, Thanks for this. I read an earlier article by Dan Johnson about Bristell, but that article didn't spell out the ELSA-registration procedure for flying a Bristell IFR in IMC. The earlier article simply said that Bristell had a way to allow pilots to do so. I agree with Dan Johnson's conclusion.

 

[Bell206]

applies only to LSAs designed and equipped to be flown VFR, because the specification doesn't include features that may be necessary for flight in IMC.

Correct. And the same goes in the TC world but from the other end. I don't know fixed wing as well but on the helicopter side you will be hard pressed to find an IFR capable, single engine rotorcraft certified under Part 27 even though there is a process under Part 27 to include IFR capability. No OEM, to my knowledge, has completed that process through 27 for SE models. Yet there are IFR capable SE models flying today. The OEMs that do provide IFR kits use Service Bulletins or STCs to upgrade the helicopter for those who wish that capability.

Instrument Rating instruction

FYI: IFR Trainers are just that. One of the only ways to get an instrument ticket in rotorcraft without breaking the bank and selling your 1st born is using a R22 Instrument Trainer. Regardless of the training it still requires the CFI to remain under VFR as the aircraft is not IFR capable.

But I have seen the operating limitations for LSAs that expressly permit flight in IMC if properly equipped.

+1

 

[Clip4]

Rob, I didn't see anything in that Van's thread about LSAs being legal for flight in IMC (the subject of this thread).

My 2008 AMD CH601XLi-B Zodiac was widely advertised as "IFR certified" as illustrated in this ad.

My understanding (and I could be mistaken) is that in 2010, there was a change brought about by a failure of the ASTM working group to come up with a standard for SLSAs to be operated in IMC since by definition Light Sport aircraft operated by sport pilots couldn't be flown in IMC.

However, there is nothing in the regs that prevents a private pilot with a current medical certificate or the alternative BasicMed and an instrument rating from flying an ELSA in IMC if the ELSA meets the requirements of FAR 91.205(d) and the operating limitations for the ELSA stipulate that instrument flight operations are authorized.

A club in my area bought an IFR Zodiac many years ago and sold it rather quickly. Not only would the plane not hold up under high untilization and was not fun to fly, the 430 that they bought with the aicraft was not properly certified and documented for the aircraft.

Zodiac is a total joke.

 

[Stan Cooper]

A club in my area bought an IFR Zodiac many years ago and sold it rather quickly. Not only would the plane not hold up under high utilization and was not fun to fly, the 430 that they bought with the aircraft was not properly certified and documented for the aircraft.

Zodiac is a total joke.

That hasn't been my experience at all. As a result of the FAA and NTSB investigations following the unexplained mid-air breakups, the CH601XL Zodiac design is probably the most scrutinized LSA since the 2004 introduction of Light Sport. In the eight years following the 2010 "B" structural modifications incorporated after the design review, the model has achieved an admirable safety record.