Let's talk crappy old taildraggers...

jesse said:
You can buy an airworthy fly baby for around 10k. You may or may not have to put money into it. They're slow, but you can still get around, I've covered some decent distances with it in a day.
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That tripacer add I sent you (and disappeared within a few minutes on ebay)

Had:
O-320 midtime
10 year old fabric and paint
Very nice interior
EDM-700 engine monitor
Davtron Clock
GTN650 with Garmin CDI

and had a buy now of $32k IRRC. Not a tail dragger but damn. That can be fixed.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
I should soon have my Archer but am also tossing around the idea of a ratty, tube and fabric taildragger for some fun on grass and colorful fall days.

Taylorcraft?
Luscombe?(I know that one is metal, at least I think it is)
Vagabond?
Colt?
140?
Chief?
Clipper?

What does everyone think? Cheap, not expensive to maintain, good on fuel, no crazy avionics. I think it might be fun(most of you already know this).
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PA-20 or 22/20 with an O-320 conversion fall at the top of my list for the genre. Greatest utility of the bunch as well as speed IMO.
 
bnt83 said:
That tripacer add I sent you (and disappeared within a few minutes on ebay)

Had:
O-320 midtime
10 year old fabric and paint
Very nice interior
EDM-700 engine monitor
Davtron Clock
GTN650 with Garmin CDI

and had a buy now of $32k IRRC. Not a tail dragger but damn. That can be fixed.
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It was also on barnstormers. Not sure if it's still there or not. Wasn't at all a bad price considering the equipment.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
Is it too much to ask for an airworthy(airplane from the list above) aircraft for 20K or less? I see lots of them 15K give or take. Are most of them projects that will require 5-10K of work to just get legal again? I don't know the answer to that. I woudn't be looking for anything pretty, just airworthy with some life left in the engine.

Anyways this is sort of moot as I haven't bought my first plane(yet) and I'm already talking about a second. The expenses of the first may put a damper on the second one lol.... But I thought it would be a fun idea to toss around.
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No, I think you are pretty much spot-on. OTOH from the OP's thread title and first post I got the impression he was in the market for a "crappy old taildragger", like something "ratty" as he put it? Sounded like a recipe for buying something that hadn't been well maintained properly for so long that the cost of getting it airworthy might be way more than it was worth?
One of my airplanes is a nice old 1940 Taylorcraft that I inherited from my father many years ago, it's been totally rebuilt at least once, A-65 engine has been majored once and topped another time later and the old linen fabric was totally stripped off and recovered with ceconite many years ago plus it's been hangered inside and flown regularily. It's not for sale but if it was I suspect it'd be valued somewhere around $15,000. Been maintained legally on a regular inspection/maintainence schedule all these years. She's no show queen but she's a good reliable airworthy old working ranchers airplane and I'd sure hardly describe it as a "ratty, crappy old taildragger".
It just sounded like the OP was envisioning something that'd been out behind somebody's barn or tied outside in the far corner of some grass overgrown airport for so long it'd be better to just leave it for the birds and small critters to build nests in and call home?
There's plenty of old tube and fabric taildraggers out there but if they're still airworthy you can bet they haven't been neglected all these years.
 

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Let me clarify... By the thread title I meant "cheap but airworthy planes that are fun VFR hamburger birds", not poorly maintained, unairworthy junk. The term "crappy" was just a play on words as some people might view a perfectly good, albeit old and maybe a bit worn, airplane as a piece of crap:)
 
Decent condition, asking $18k.

http://www.barnstormers.com/classified_1020641_Well+kept+Taylorcraft+.html

No pics, may need some upkeep. Asking $13,5k. Sell at 12k and use 8k to fix what you find.

http://www.barnstormers.com/classified_1019740_1946+BC12D.+TAYLORCRAFT.+LSA,+.html

Colt, not a TW, not Light Sport, but still fun, and has a bit more power as well. 18K

http://www.barnstormers.com/classified_1020737_1962+PA-22-108+COLT.html

Metal Luscombe, $14k

http://www.barnstormers.com/classified_1020197_1940+Luscombe+8C.html

Sweet Luscombe, asking $19,5k

http://www.barnstormers.com/classified_1020197_1940+Luscombe+8C.html

No affiliation, just like to shop. Pretty sure most of these would provide good service for a couple years before needing big money like brakes, recover, O/H. Hard to say. Can you spend more? always....
 
I'd still see if if you could get that new air camper for 16-18 or so, I'd wager you could, fresh and new, no old fabric, no old wires, fresh engine.

For the planes you're talking about (milk stool not included) you're looking at 25+ for a nice one, 20 or less is going to end up being 30+ after you fix all the stuff that IS going to be wrong with it.

Buy a lower end plane in top condition, vs a slightly higher end plane in just maybe airworthy condition.
 
jesse said:
You can buy an airworthy fly baby for around 10k. You may or may not have to put money into it. They're slow, but you can still get around, I've covered some decent distances with it in a day.
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You can get a Flybaby cheaper than that. I've owned mine since 88'. It does about 95mph indicated in cruise on about 4.5 hr. Fun plane (obviously since I still have mine) but if you want to take someone up, buy a Champ.



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PAustin said:
You can get a Flybaby cheaper than that. I've owned mine since 88'. It does about 95mph indicated in cruise on about 4.5 hr. Fun plane (obviously since I still have mine) but if you want to take someone up, buy a Champ.



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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I haven't seen many selling that are being actively flown, have a current condition inspection, and no major issues sell for much less. Granted I don't keep a very close eye.

Most of them I've seen for less have been sitting for years, and may or may not require substantial work to get them going.
 
A C-140 in reasonable shape could be had for <$25k. They are fun flyers. For homebuilt, look at something like the Fisher Dakota Hawk would be nice.
 
Fiveoboy - you need to come down to Blakesburg, IA on Labor Day weekend. It's the annual Antique Airplane Association fly-in. You'll see every type of rag and tube taildragger there is. I can probably get you a ride in many too. At least you can try them on for size. We typically have around 350 planes there.

http://www.antiqueairfield.com

Paul Austin




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Jimmy cooper said:
If you fly them some, more experience, I'm sure you'll agree.
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I'm still waiting on all this "experience" to make the cockpit of a Luscombe comfortable for someone my size. ;)

Boy Jimmy, you really think your opinions are the stone tablets God gave Moses to carry down the mountain.
 
I don't know about your size, but for my size (6'-2" @ 150) The 8a fits nicely, flys well, and will carry two in reasonable comfort for a burger run.
 
Stewartb said:
...Can you find a worthwhile flying airplane for under $20K? My opinion is no.
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Got my Champ for way under $20k. That was six years and over 500 hours ago. Haven't done much of anything other than fly it. Not typical though, I just happened to stumble upon it at a time when the owner just really wanted to get rid of it. I got lucky.

champ_grass.jpg


Low and slow is fun but you can go high and slow too :wink2:

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fiveoboy01 said:
I won't say what he bought it for but if I'd known about it and the price, I would have written a check on the spot. It's going to need fabric though... failed the punch test. No idea how long you can fly it like that.
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I doubt it is covered with cotton. Your friend needs a new mechanic who knows what a punch test is used for.
 
RoscoeT said:
I'm still waiting on all this "experience" to make the cockpit of a Luscombe comfortable for someone my size. ;)

Boy Jimmy, you really think your opinions are the stone tablets God gave Moses to carry down the mountain.
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:lol: Luscombes are pretty much best flown by FAA 'standard' size people, that's for sure, but it's not really different for any of the side by sides of the genre, or anything <100hp for that matter. For big guys who want a cool taildragger, I recommend a BE-18. :lol: Hey, they run on MoGas...;)
 
docmirror said:
Decent condition, asking $18k.

http://www.barnstormers.com/classified_1020641_Well+kept+Taylorcraft+.html

No pics, may need some upkeep. Asking $13,5k. Sell at 12k and use 8k to fix what you find.

http://www.barnstormers.com/classified_1019740_1946+BC12D.+TAYLORCRAFT.+LSA,+.html

Colt, not a TW, not Light Sport, but still fun, and has a bit more power as well. 18K

http://www.barnstormers.com/classified_1020737_1962+PA-22-108+COLT.html

Metal Luscombe, $14k

http://www.barnstormers.com/classified_1020197_1940+Luscombe+8C.html

Sweet Luscombe, asking $19,5k

http://www.barnstormers.com/classified_1020197_1940+Luscombe+8C.html

No affiliation, just like to shop. Pretty sure most of these would provide good service for a couple years before needing big money like brakes, recover, O/H. Hard to say. Can you spend more? always....
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I've seen pretty much all of those. I spend an hour a day usually and a couple on the weekends just looking at aircraft for sale. I also enjoy it:)
 
PAustin said:
Fiveoboy - you need to come down to Blakesburg, IA on Labor Day weekend. It's the annual Antique Airplane Association fly-in. You'll see every type of rag and tube taildragger there is. I can probably get you a ride in many too. At least you can try them on for size. We typically have around 350 planes there.

http://www.antiqueairfield.com

Paul Austin




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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Am I allowed to fly in without an antique or would I need to drive?

Sounds really cool. I'll mark it down....
 
Fearless Tower said:
Not much more than 20k. It's a Chief. May be a beautiful airplane, but the demand isn't there to drive the price up.

Nicely restored '48 170s aren't going for more than 30k these days.
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It is a pre-war Chief with a post-war cowling. The lack of a counterbalance on the rudder is the first clue. The pre-wars were entirely different aircraft from the post-wars. Wood wings (including the ribs), higher performance airfoil, and just about no parts commonality. That's a bad thing because you can't go to Wag Aero or Unvair and buy parts like for a post-war. This one really needs to be converted back to a pre-war cowling to make it recognizably unique.

Pretty as it is, it is probably worth the $16.5k the guy is asking. (Writes the guy who has the carcasses of two pre-war Chiefs in his hangar.)
 
fiveoboy01 said:
Is it too much to ask for an airworthy(airplane from the list above) aircraft for 20K or less?
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I paid $20K for my ride in 2010 and it seems to have been flying just fine since. Yes, I've fixed a few things along the way, but...
 
Henning said:
Correct, I'm continually amazed to see people using a punch test on Ceconite and such.:dunno:
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I am amazed that people are not aware of the instructions on how to use the punch tester on polyfiber as described in the polyfiber manual. :dunno:
 
JHW said:
there is no punch test for the synthetic fabrics.
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My understanding (and I might be mistaken, I'm not an A&P) is that most of the early fabric covered airplanes were covered in cotton to keep prices down, while those re-covered later in the 40's or fifties were likely done in the more expensive but longer lasting grade A linen. Either covering is subject to the punch test to prove airworthy. OTOH most fabric airplanes either covered or recovered were done in ceconite or one of the other synthetic "lifetime" fabrics. I suspect even the lifetime fabrics are better able to live up to the promise if the airplane is kept parked inside or at least out of the sun.
Whatever, anyone looking into old fabric taildraggers would be well advised to consider the type of fabric and when it was covered. If a recover is due soon that's a MAJOR expense.
 
JHW said:
I doubt it is covered with cotton. Your friend needs a new mechanic who knows what a punch test is used for.
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Why not?? many purest use cotton. and yes, say it, "DOPE"

Many out there 25-30 year old cotton dope systems still good to go. re-J-ed every 5 years or so. They will be flying long after you aren't.
 
PAustin said:
Fiveoboy - you need to come down to Blakesburg, IA on Labor Day weekend. It's the annual Antique Airplane Association fly-in. You'll see every type of rag and tube taildragger there is. I can probably get you a ride in many too. At least you can try them on for size. We typically have around 350 planes there.

http://www.antiqueairfield.com

Paul Austin
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Man, that's tempting. I love those planes from the 20s-60s. Droolworthy. :yes:
 
peerlesscowboy said:
My understanding (and I might be mistaken, I'm not an A&P) is that most of the early fabric covered airplanes were covered in cotton to keep prices down, while those re-covered later in the 40's or fifties were likely done in the more expensive but longer lasting grade A linen.

Wrong, it's the weight, Ceconite is heavier, and in many light weight aircraft were not approved until the light weight ceconite was approved for there use.


Either covering is subject to the punch test to prove airworthy.

Wrong again. The directions that come with the MAULE fabric tester has only directions for Grade A cotton, no other system is required to use except the poly fiber, simply because it was written into their ICAs for the STC applying it.


OTOH most fabric airplanes either covered or recovered were done in ceconite or one of the other synthetic "lifetime" fabrics. I suspect even the lifetime fabrics are better able to live up to the promise if the airplane is kept parked inside or at least out of the sun.
Whatever, anyone looking into old fabric taildraggers would be well advised to consider the type of fabric and when it was covered. If a recover is due soon that's a MAJOR expense.
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Many of these older aircraft are bought at bargan prices, and recovered by their owners under the supervision of their favorite A&P.

I am surprised at the amount of mis-info given by those who still cling to the old wives tales about fabric aircraft.
 
fiveoboy01 said:
Can you elaborate? Since I don't really know either....
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A punch tester was designed to apply a controlled force to fabric to test how strong it is. If you poked a hole before you got to the target value, the fabric is shot. And, the tester was designed when cotton was common.

Now, some people will tell you that you can't use one on polyester, but at least some of the people who wrote the book (and own the STC) on using polyester (Polyfiber) say you CAN use a punch tester as an initial test to see if the fabric has deteriorated - if it fails the punch test, they then recommend that you cut out a strip, remove the finish and do a tensile test to get an accurate value for the fabric strength.

Cotton can rot and typically has a relatively short life. Dacron, on the other hand, is significantly more durable. The failure mode for Dacron fabric is degradation due to ultraviolet exposure - the prevention is an adequate layer of silver or some other UV blocker. The test to determine if the silver is adequate is to try and see if you can detect a bright light through the fabric - if you can see the light then the UV is getting through - not the end of the world if the airplane lives in a hangar, but an indication that the fabric is likely to be an issue. More often, however, the fabric will outlive the coatings. You run into problems like cracks and "ringworm"... New Dacron is also a lot stronger than new cotton of the same weight. Numbers are in the Polyfiber manual if you are interested.

At one time, I had samples of cotton and Dacron that had been stripped from a glider that had been stored outdoors in Texas - the cotton would crumble in your hand, but the Dacron was still strong.
 
JHW said:
there is no punch test for the synthetic fabrics.
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Yes there is, read the STC instructions for the Poly Fiber (stits) system.
To be airworthy at annual, their system must pass their test as discribed in their STC. (they use the maule fabric tester)
 
Henning said:
Correct, I'm continually amazed to see people using a punch test on Ceconite and such.:dunno:
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Of all people you should not be " Amazed" at this.Most AIs are very reluctant to cut a patch of fabric out of a wing of a perfectly good ceconite . Instead they maule punch test the synthetic to around 46 - 50 in several places and sign it off if it passes .having had six different taildraggers since I went light sport, I'm very well versed on how annuals are conducted on them. Not amazing at all and very common. Getting it out in bright sunlight, looking up thru the inspection holes tells alot also. If they are kept hangared and dry they remain airworthy a long time. Outside in weather all bets are off.
 
The best, most long lasting, and the easiest to get right when applying is Airtech. Their glue is easy to apply, and stronger than Poly fiber, (which is simply dope) and Stewarts.

Poly fiber requires a poly tack as first coat which must be brushed in to encapsulate the Ceconite, then the silver as UV shield, then primer and finally the top coat. Screw up any step and it all falls of in 5 years.

Stewarts is a water based system, it does not stink or harm you if you get some on you. it also require brushing in the first 6-8 coats to fill the weave. then spray the top coat. All UV protection is Chemical no silver required.

Airtech Chemical proof, fire proof, and only requires spraying the first 3 wet coats, it will wet out the Ceconite like water on an old dish rag with the the first coat, then 2 more wet coats wait 24 hours and sand as required, and spray the top coat, all UV protection is chemical no silver required. Their glue is a URA based air dried, a 4 square inch patch on ply wood will glue Ceconite that will support 200 pounds. Poly fiber about 75 pounds and stewart about 150 pounds.
 
Tom-D said:
The best, most long lasting, and the easiest to get right when applying is Airtech. Their glue is easy to apply, and stronger than Poly fiber, (which is simply dope) and Stewarts.
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Is it qualified for a Luscombe 8A?
 
jhausch said:
Seems like a good deal?

Would you fly it away today, or are their demons lurking within (the plane, not you :D )?
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I did the annual a couple months ago :) It ain't pretty but it is airworthy. It needs TLC and a repaint, lots of the yellow touch up doesn't match.

Remember all the 7&8 CAB's Plus others have a re-occuring wing spar AD that is a killer to do. Add a grand to each annual to comply.
 
Jimmy cooper said:
Of all people you should not be " Amazed" at this.Most AIs are very reluctant to cut a patch of fabric out of a wing of a perfectly good ceconite
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How do we know it's perfectly good?
 
Tom-D said:
How do we know it's perfectly good?
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We know that by punch testing it with a maule tester. Get a grip! And incidentally , recovering an airplane is not a simple task for the average person. To do it correctly and have it look professional it takes some practice plus it's time consuming. It's a main reason why so many " projects" are for sale. People got into it and realized it was an art as well as a science. Not to mention that many of these old crates have wooden spars which may have a crack. Very difficult to really know unless the fabric is completely removed for a close inspection. One has to be very careful when buying a fabric airplane.
 
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docmirror said:
So, do you know if they are qualified, or just being obtuse? I've glanced at it, but they don't seem to have a list of planes. If not, it's no problem, but a direct question appreciates a direct answer. Even if that answer is 'I don't know'.
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I don't have a list either, you'd probably have to call Wilma and ask her, she'll answer the 1-800 number.

Tell her I sent ya.
 
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