Legalities of high speed taxi w. exported aircraft?

stratobee

stratobee

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stratobee
I need some insight from someone who is better with regs than I am. Backstory:

I sold my old Commander 520 last year to a Russian buyer. They have yet to pick her up and fly her back to Siberia. She's been sitting in my tie down since November (as my new plane is in for engine overhauls). Before the annual ran out, I took her out for a spin every 2-4 weeks, just to keep her juices flowing. And because I still love her. After the annual ran out, I've only been able to run her on the ground and do high speed taxis.

Now to my question - somewhere around Feb this year she was deregistered and shown as exported in the FAA files, the N number has gone back into the pool. She might have a new Russian registration number that I'm unaware of (the new owner isn't very communicative), but she obviously still has the old N-number painted on the tail.

I hope I'm not incriminating myself here, but I have since this has happened, called up ATC for taxi as part of my service to the new owner. Technically, the plane doesn't have that registration anymore. On the other hand, no flight was ever intended or has taken place, just taxi.

What are the rules here? Can you do high speed taxi with essentially an unregistered aircraft? I'd like to continue doing so, but don't want to get myself in any trouble legally.

Thanks.
 
More important, what insurance coverage do you have? I say walk away if its not yours anymore.
 
bnt83 said:
More important, what insurance coverage do you have? I say walk away if its not yours anymore.
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Absolutely!! IF something happens to the plane while you are "caring" for it, you are screwed! :D
 
Once the check cleared and the paperwork was settled I wouldn't touch it. Lots of ways that could end badly.
 
Quit messing with a plane you don't own. What happens when a brake fails and you take out a taxi light? It's their problem, if they prefer to let it sit and rot that's on them. (Though I understand its painful to watch what used to be your baby rot away)
 
I can not in good conscience just let her sit and have the engines corrode up. That's not how I am as a seller. I take pride in being someone who has the best interest for all involved at heart. Plus I care for the old bird - she gave me a lot of joy and was a good plane. I even changed a fuel pump after it was sold because I didn't want the new owner to depart with a marginal one. Remember, this plane is about to fly to Siberia and I want it to make it there safe for all involved.

So, about those regs?
 
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stratobee said:
I can not in good conscience just let her sit and have the engines corrode up. That's not how I am as a seller. I take pride in being someone who has the best interest for all involved at heart. Plus I care for the old bird - she gave me a lot of joy and was a good plane. I even changed a fuel pump after it was sold because I didn't want the new owner to depart with a marginal one. Remember, this plane is about to fly to Siberia and I want it to make it there safe for all involved.

So how about the regs?
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You take pride and you'll also pay the price if you mess something up.

Tough spot to be in
 
stratobee said:
I can not in good conscience just let her sit and have the engines corrode up. That's not how I am as a seller. I take pride in being someone who has the best interest for all involved at heart. Plus I care for the old bird - she gave me a lot of joy and was a good plane. I even changed a fuel pump after it was sold because I didn't want the new owner to depart with a marginal one. Remember, this plane is about to fly to Siberia and I want it to make it there safe for all involved.



So how about the regs?
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But you've already sold the airplane. If the buyer is dragging his feet about picking it up....after 6 months... That is his problem.

Like others have said, the insurance implications are greater than any possible FAR violation.
 
stratobee said:
I can not in good conscience just let her sit and have the engines corrode up. That's not how I am as a seller. I take pride in being someone who has the best interest for all involved at heart. Plus I care for the old bird - she gave me a lot of joy and was a good plane. I even changed a fuel pump after it was sold because I didn't want the new owner to depart with a marginal one. Remember, this plane is about to fly to Siberia and I want it to make it there safe for all involved.



So how about the regs?
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Well, the plane has no US registration. You know it's not legal to fly from that perspective. Even if it has Russian registration, that doesn't help you. You could easily get violated for flying it, and likely just for operating it on the ground. You could also have a Martha King experience if our dear Federales hear of an unregistered aircraft being operated.

You are aware that unless you allow the engines to reach full operating temp, you're doing more harm than good by running them?

Are you prepared to reimburse the owner for anything that gets damaged or breaks while you are operating it? If ANYTHING happens, even if it's just a part breaking, that's on you.

This is just a bad idea on all angles.
 
Send the new owner at the last known address a certified letter saying that unless he provides a copy of an insurance policy listing you as an insured operator that you will not provide your care taking services any longer. And document with photography and witnesses the condition of the plane now. Then do nothing more unless you hear positively from the owner.

You dealt with a stranger and the check cleared. Good for you. Now protect yourself. Seriously! -Skip
 
Well, the plane has no US registration. You know it's not legal to fly from that perspective. Even if it has Russian registration, that doesn't help you. You could easily get violated for flying it. You could also have a Martha King experience if our dear Federales hear of an unregistered aircraft being operated.

You are aware that unless you allow the engines to reach full operating temp, you're doing more harm than good by running them?

Are you prepared to reimburse the owner for anything that gets damaged or breaks while you are operating it? If ANYTHING happens, even if it's just a part breaking, that's on you.

This is just a bad idea on all angles.
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I'm of course not flying it, this is in regards to taxi, just like I wrote. Stop alluding or trying to make it sound like something else.

Let me reform question. You have an experimentally built RV. You have no registration yet. Can you taxi it?

Please, no more "good advice" that doesn't answer the question.
 
If the buyer cared, he/she can get a local shop to preserve the engines and move the airplane every week to help week to keep the tires round. Then any losses are on the shop.
 
I believe the answer is going to depend if you are conducting the operation at a controlled field. The part that will bite you is the clearance to taxi knowingly on a registration other than the correct one.

If you're at an uncontrolled field, and there's no intent for flight, I can't think of a rule you'd be breaking.
 
almost sounds like you're stealing the plane. I mean, it's NOT YOURS.
 
Thanks ISaid. This is a controlled field. I would assume that in the non-movement area where no clearance is required, it should be OK.
 
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91.13 #$%&*#$&. I'm certain there are a bunch of others a good b'crat could find. FAA legally speaking it is illegal if they want it to be. And love of machinery is no defense, remember that defense never worked on mom or the cops back in minibike days.
 
ClimbnSink said:
91.13 #$%&*#$&. I'm certain there are a bunch of others a good b'crat could find. FAA legally speaking it is illegal if they want it to be. And love of machinery is no defense, remember that defense never worked on mom or the cops back in minibike days.
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There is always that, Greg.
 
stratobee said:
Thanks ISaid. This is a controlled field. I would assume that in the non-movement area where no clearance is required, it should be OK.
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So now the next question is if the aircraft is foreign registered. If so, you're entering into new FARs.

If it is registered in Russia particularly, you're entering into the realm of Special Interest Flights. I understand you're not flying as most regs outline, but you are operating, which is completely different.
 
ClimbnSink said:
91.13 #$%&*#$&.
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91.13 is almost exclusively a tag on. Almost never a primary violation.

Besides, it's not careless or reckless if someone else does it, but it is because of the paperwork state of the aircraft? NTSB would chuck it out in a second as arbitrary and capricious.
 
stratobee said:
I'm of course not flying it, this is in regards to taxi, just like I wrote. Stop alluding or trying to make it sound like something else.



Let me reform question. You have an experimentally built RV. You have no registration yet. Can you taxi it?



Please, no more "good advice" that doesn't answer the question.
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Do forgive us for trying to save you piles of money and trouble. How dare we.
 
Well, if it has an RA-reg (and I believe it does, because he had the logbooks sent off to Russian authorities to get Russian airworthiness certificate) then I'm legal to operate it. Any foreign registered aircraft within the US is legal to operate on FAA license. The question then becomes, does the RA registration have to be displayed? Do the FAR's govern that, or the Russian regulations?

I'm just thinking out loud because it interests me, not expecting anyone to know the answer to that one. :D;)
 
Call your FSDO and get their answer in writing or a written regulation you can refer to.

Your caught between a rock and a hard place and your had better start covering your butt through documentation. Russians are not as nit picking on laws and regulations as we are. Your buyer will not understand if you let that bird go to sh*t in a tie-down.

-John
 
If you really want to help this guy out talk to him and determine the schedule for moving the airplane. If it is months away from flying again take it to your local trusted mechanic and have the engine put up for long term storage and find a hangar to put her in. What you are trying to do will not help the engine. It has to be operated with a load on it and at operating temperature to do any good.

If you don't want to do that and insist on trying to "help" by taxing it around I don't think anyone at the tower would care, if you are worried about call the tower or the FSDO and ask
 
You live in perhaps one on the most strict FAA districts in the USA and you want advice from the peanut gallery about operating an aircraft that may be on foreign registry with no written consent from the owner or insurance- does that sum it up?
 
stratobee said:
Any foreign registered aircraft within the US is legal to operate on FAA license.
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Well I'm glad you went out and complied with 91.715(a). Weird they granted that authorization to the ex-owner and without even knowing if the aircraft was indeed foreign registered.

Listen, you know what you're doing is a risk. If you want to do it, go with God and don't hurt anyone. If you want to know what's going to get your certificate pulled, these are the assumptions that will do it.
 
Thanks, I'll call the FSDO.

Last I spoke to new owner they said they'll pick it up in June. But they're not very communicative.

I have run her up to temps, and when I did high speed taxi she was at full power briefly. I'm hoping this must be better for them than just sitting, no? Even though the load is not sustained.
 
stratobee said:
Thanks, I'll call the FSDO.



Last I spoke to new owner they said they'll pick it up in June. But they're not very communicative.



I have run her up to temps, and when I did high speed taxi she was at full power briefly. I'm hoping this must be better for them than just sitting, no? Even though the load is not sustained.
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No, it's not better. Read under the Active Engines subheading: http://www.reiffpreheat.com/Lycoming SL180B.pdf
 
Alright Jonathan, thanks for link. If it doesn't help the engines then there's obviously no point in doing it.
 
stratobee said:
Well, if it doesn't help the engines then there's obviously no point in doing it.
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Pretty much. Burning fuel and time only to promote corrosion. The best bet would be to go to your mechanic with the second part of that document and have him prep the engines for proper long-term storage.
 
Along with pretty much everyone else, I'm having a hard time understanding why you insist on apparently assuming a monster liability by operating an aircraft which you no longer own; that is, unless you don't have all of your money yet (it's not really sold), or are under a contractual obligation to do so, in which case you are in a bit of a tough situation with an unresponsive foreign buyer.

If you do have your money and no contractual obligation to anything else, the Russians can be as upset as they want if the airplane rots--it's their problem, not yours. If your emotional attachment is the issue, then it's time to let go rather than risk your financial well being on behalf of a stranger.

The definitive answer to your original question I do not know, though the regulations do make the distinction of operating an aircraft for the purpose of flight. Since you are performing high speed taxis only, I doubt that you would draw any undesired attention. Keep in mind that if you ask the FSDO and they say "no," you won't have much of an option but to let it sit or pickle the engine, even if the FSDO's interpretation is wrong. If you draw attention to yourself, you better be prepared to comply.

As far as I know, all the major engine manufacturers recommend pickling as the means of preservation, and specifically warn against ground runs. In any case, there is zero chance that I would make myself liable for an airplane sold to an unfamiliar foreign buyer unless I was somehow contractually obligated to do so.


JKG
 
You are not a seller. You are a bystander. Rephrase the question as:
I know where the keys at kept for a plane tied down at a local airport. Since the owner is away I used to fly it just for fun. Now the registration has run out but I still like to fire it up and taxi it around. No harm, no foul, right ?
 
stratobee said:
Well, if it has an RA-reg (and I believe it does, because he had the logbooks sent off to Russian authorities to get Russian airworthiness certificate) then I'm legal to operate it. Any foreign registered aircraft within the US is legal to operate on FAA license. The question then becomes, does the RA registration have to be displayed? Do the FAR's govern that, or the Russian regulations?

I'm just thinking out loud because it interests me, not expecting anyone to know the answer to that one. :D;)
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Doesn't have to have ANYTHING on it just to taxi it around the airport.
 
JHW said:
You are not a seller. You are a bystander. Rephrase the question as:
I know where the keys at kept for a plane tied down at a local airport. Since the owner is away I used to fly it just for fun. Now the registration has run out but I still like to fire it up and taxi it around. No harm, no foul, right ?
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+1:mad2: How are you going to respond to a ramp check?? "Well, it used to be my airplane.":dunno: I tell people when they buy something from me, they can take it off and burn it, as long as the check has cleared! :D
 
stratobee said:
I sold my old Commander 520 last year to a Russian buyer. They have yet to pick her up and fly her back to Siberia.
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Completely off topic and not your problem, but I was wondering how the supply of AvGas is in Siberia. I have heard it not very common. I remember investigating this a few years ago when I posted pictures from Petropavlovsk and people asked about flying there in a smaller airplane (we were in a Sovereign). There was no AvGas in Petro at that point.

Flight clearances for Russia are not simple, particularly where Siberia is concerned. However, the rules seem to change depending on who you know and the type of flight involved. On-airway, IFR high-altitude flights are one thing. Lower level VFR flights with stops in remote towns are something else. In 2001, clearance had to be through the Embassy of your country in Moscow. It passes to the Ministry of the Interior and finally to the aviation authorities. Our clearance took 4 months and cost nothing. In my case, an exclusively VFR flight, the authorities demanded that a Russian navigator accompany me. I flew with Capt.Yakov Sabodin who proved indispensable, working diligently, dealing with the controllers and the paperwork. Each flight plan required approval from Moscow one day in advance, even though the whole flight was already theoretically approved. Avgas is not available in most of the Russian Far East. My Rotax engine used car fuel.
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http://www.earthrounders.com/cgi/plan_asia.php#Russia

As far as taxiing an airplane which is not yours, people do it all the time with the permission of the owner. I can't tell if that is your situation or not, but maybe this is not an issue any more since you discovered it's not necessarily good for the engine.
 
JGoodish said:
As far as I know, all the major engine manufacturers recommend pickling as the means of preservation, and specifically warn against ground runs. In any case, there is zero chance that I would make myself liable for an airplane sold to an unfamiliar foreign buyer unless I was somehow contractually obligated to do so.





JKG
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This. If, when these guys finally take delivery, an engine or engine component fails on the flight back to Russia for any reason , do you realize that you are opening yourself up to be held financially responsible whether it is genuinely your fault or not?

I know you mean well, but like another poster said, we're just trying to save you money and grief.
 
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