Learning GPS Approaches

flyingron said:
I never said that. I just was initially responding to an unfounded statement by CapnRon that the 480 had a non-intuitive interface when a pilot comes here having never flown a GPS approach in his life. My counter was that starting from scratch (i.e., having not been encumbered by Garmin's rediculous interface on the 430) the 480 is NOT difficult to learn.
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Sorry for misreading. I agree with you. One of the airplanes in my club has a 480. The system works pretty good, although I need to become much, much more familiar with it.

I remember someone telling me how "silly" it was that you put in a departure and destination before entering in intermediate fixes. I replied that this was the way I did most of my GPS flight plan entries, even in the other Garmin series boxes.
 
I used to demonstrate this at the Garmin booth back when they still sold it. No Garmin employee ever stood in front of the 480 display. I'd read out the way the clearance is actually issued.

CLEARED TO THE XYZ AIRPORT, via SBY V16 ... and push the appropriate flight plan buttons as I went along. I'd then show them how to put in the approach when told "Expect the XYZ..."

The only thing that was the slightest bit clunky was putting the RNAV SID (fortunately not too many of these) in after the fact.
 
flyingron said:
I used to demonstrate this at the Garmin booth back when they still sold it. No Garmin employee ever stood in front of the 480 display. I'd read out the way the clearance is actually issued.

CLEARED TO THE XYZ AIRPORT, via SBY V16 ... and push the appropriate flight plan buttons as I went along. I'd then show them how to put in the approach when told "Expect the XYZ..."

The only thing that was the slightest bit clunky was putting the RNAV SID (fortunately not too many of these) in after the fact.
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None of them match the old pre-GPS 767 I flew. We typed in the departure, route, and arrival exactly as we filed it. I presume the 767 with the far better FMS that came with GPS did it the same.
 
flyingron said:
I never said that. I just was initially responding to an unfounded statement by CapnRon that the 480 had a non-intuitive interface when a pilot comes here having never flown a GPS approach in his life. My counter was that starting from scratch (i.e., having not been encumbered by Garmin's rediculous interface on the 430) the 480 is NOT difficult to learn.
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That may be true for you individually, but my statement is based on having dealt with half a dozen others trying to learn it from scratch compared with several dozen others learning the 430/530 from scratch. When you've trained a few dozen people on GPS's, let us know if your experience is different than mine.
 
aterpster said:
None of them match the old pre-GPS 767 I flew. We typed in the departure, route, and arrival exactly as we filed it. I presume the 767 with the far better FMS that came with GPS did it the same.
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Actually, that's the way the 480 flight plans are entered, right off the flight plan. Try entering this on a 430: KSEA to KGDM via SEA V2 GDM. On a 480 you enter the departure and destination airports waypoint SEA, airway V2, exit point GDM and you're done. With a 430 you'll still be looking up waypoints and entering them when the plane with the 480 that fired up at the same time you did lands at Gardner. Granted this is is an extreme example but the same thing applies to any other route flown on airways.
 
Ron Levy said:
That may be true for you individually, but my statement is based on having dealt with half a dozen others trying to learn it from scratch compared with several dozen others learning the 430/530 from scratch. When you've trained a few dozen people on GPS's, let us know if your experience is different than mine.
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Perhaps your instructional technique is similarly tainted.
 
ive found that gps approaches were the easiest during my instrument traning. we just plugged in which gps approach we wanted and our 430 would have everything, just follow the desired track and the step down fixes and you should be fine. if your ok with ils or vor approaches, the gps approach shouldnt be a problem
 
Agreed. Get the sim software for whatever you are using and practice some button mashing on the ground. Once you've mastered that, flying it is as easy as following the purple line. Yeah you have a CDI but you also have an immediate visual depcition of where you are with regard to the track as well as some clues like cross track error readout, desired vs. actual track, etc... that make it pretty easy even partial panel.
 
flyingron said:
Agreed. Get the sim software for whatever you are using and practice some button mashing on the ground.
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I might suggest that after getting the sim but before practicing, you get an instructor who knows that system to teach you which buttons you need to push and in which order to push them to get what you want. That way you'll have the laws of primacy and exercise working for you rather than against you. Yes, some folks have the background and skill to get this all right out of the manual the first time, but each time you do it wrong with "trial and error" makes it that much harder to remember it correctly later on.
 
I'd learned the generic concepts of an IFR GPS by reading Rod Machado's instrument survival guide, then eventually learned the KLN-94 in the 172 with the help of an instructor during instrument training.

When I transitioned to the Lancair, which has a Garmin 420 (yes, not a 430), I downloaded the Garmin trainer and the manual and went through it, simulating just about every case I could think of. It took about 2 1/2 hours to learn all the buttonology and flows for the tasks I knew I'd need. Then I combed through the manual and sim to see what else it could do that I didn't already know about, conceptually.

It was a great experience. When the Lancair arrived, I was good to go.
 
Physically flying the approaches is really easy. Just follow the magenta line, more or less. The HARD part is learning the proper "knobology" for your navigator. Practice helps, even if you just fly approaches VFR. Don't barge off IFR without some practice. You can get bollixed up pretty good when you can't remember how to make the box do what you want at 120 kt.
 
"Teaching the box from scratch" will be much easier in the 480 if the student is learning to fly long trips or complex routings. Since neither of those is a staple during avionics most training sessions (as opposed to IR training flights) the 480's advantages are difficult to assess when comparing the two boxes.

I was faced with the choice when upgrading the panel in the current plane, and called Dave Hayden, a fellow 180 club member and 40+ year owner of a top-notch radio shop at KIXD (KS). He listened carefully to my deliberations for about five minutes before stopping me to say "you're right, the 480 has those advantages you mentioned, but they're even older than the 430's and are faced with issues you'll never understand so you don't want to go there. Buy the 430 or 530w." He's been steering me right since1972, so I did.
 
Your friend is incorrect. The GNS430 preceded the CNX80 (the 480 precursor) by several years. It does have a leg up on the 430W. I'm not sure what "issues" he is alluding to.
My 480 has worked flawlessly since it was installed
 
FRon loves his 480, and as he notes, it is significantly more powerful than the 430/530 series -- almost like a big jet FMS in capability. However, having trained people to use it, I can say that Wayne is correct that it is also harder to learn and has features beyond the needs of the average light GA pilot. The only thing the 430/530 really miss is the airway programming, and Garmin put that in the follow-on 650/750, which is even easier to use than the 430/530 they replaced.
 
Ron Levy said:
FRon loves his 480, and as he notes, it is significantly more powerful than the 430/530 series -- almost like a big jet FMS in capability. However, having trained people to use it, I can say that Wayne is correct that it is also harder to learn and has features beyond the needs of the average light GA pilot. The only thing the 430/530 really miss is the airway programming, and Garmin put that in the follow-on 650/750, which is even easier to use than the 430/530 they replaced.
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Airways and ad hoc holding patterns are missing.
 
And he has 40 years experience in the industry, all GA. Everybody decides where to seek advice, and everybody who has done so will always find somebody who says "mine has worked fine." The shops who see and work on all of them have obviously seen some that didn't "work just fine."

The reason I called for advice was because I personally like the 480 since it's very close to the Honeywell in the G-V and quite easy to use.



flyingron said:
Your friend is incorrect. The GNS430 preceded the CNX80 (the 480 precursor) by several years. It does have a leg up on the 430W. I'm not sure what "issues" he is alluding to.
My 480 has worked flawlessly since it was installed
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wabower said:
And he has 40 years experience in the industry, all GA. Everybody decides where to seek advice, and everybody who has done so will always find somebody who says "mine has worked fine." The shops who see and work on all of them have obviously seen some that didn't "work just fine."
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Your shop is already suspect because the one "fact" you presented was already demonstrated to be wrong. I'd take 100 recommendations from people with direct experienced than hearsay that "some avionics guy" told me there were problems. To counter that, none of the shops, not the one who installed mine nor any others I have dealt with have had unkind words to say about the 480. This includes some older-than-dirt guys in the area who have been know to send customers packing telling them "I won't install those units."

He blames the 480 for being old and holds up the even more archaic 430 as an example? I bet he likes it a whole lot because even routine maintenance generates more billable hours for him. Ask him how long it takes to do a firmware change in the 430 versus the 480? The 480 uses industry standard interfaces and front panel loadable programming (something Olathe didn't pick up for a few years on their more "modern" units).

I'm not a 480 bigot, but I do feel compelled when people make baseless accusations on the unit when they have no real information.
 
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I was comparing the 480 and the 430W. Which is older? I provided his name, why don't you call him and tell him everything you know.

flyingron said:
Your shop is already suspect because the one "fact" you presented was already demonstrated to be wrong. I'd take 100 recommendations from people with direct experienced than hearsay that "some avionics guy" told me there were problems. To counter that, none of the shops, not the one who installed mine nor any others I have dealt with have had unkind words to say about the 480. This includes some older-than-dirt guys in the area who have been know to send customers packing telling them "I won't install those units."

He blames the 480 for being old and holds up the even more archaic 430 as an example? I bet he likes it a whole lot because even routine maintenance generates more billable hours for him. Ask him how long it takes to do a firmware change in the 430 versus the 480? The 480 uses industry standard interfaces and front panel loadable programming (something Olathe didn't pick up for a few years on their more "modern" units).

I'm not a 480 bigot, but I do feel compelled when people make baseless accusations on the unit when they have no real information.
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wabower said:
I was comparing the 480 and the 430W. Which is older? I provided his name, why don't you call him and tell him everything you know.
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Go back and read your post, you didn't way "W" you said it was "older than the 430's" [SIC]
 
aterpster said:
Airways and ad hoc holding patterns are missing.
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650/750 do have the airways the 480 has and the 430/540 lack. Not sure about ad hoc holding patterns, but even with the 430/530, you get close by using the OBS mode, although that won't help you do autopilot/GPSS holding.
 
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