Last 182 post

[Bill]

OK, so by now, I'm sure you're all sick and tired of my 182 posts, so here's the last one.

First solo with the bird, I went out with an IR rated pilot friend, and we hit three different airports with the intent of me logging apps under the hood using GPS/coupled auto pilot.

Button pushing went much better this time, but I'm still not quite ready to depend on GPS approaches single pilot IFR. We flew to 9A5 and shot GPS 20, then went missed following the published miss/hold. Then shot GPS 32 at DNN, including the manditory initial hold. Then back to the home 'drome (CHA), got vectors to ILS 20 and rode that one down fully coupled.

Once stabilized on the climbout from DNN, I engaged the AP, and between using the altitude preselect, VS, heading and course bugs, I flew the entire way to DH on the ILS without having to touch a control on the plane, other than the throttle/prop controls.

Compared to hand flying approaches, it's soooo easy it is almost like cheating. I'm glad I learned IR in the low tech plane and hand flew everything, but one could get spoiled with all this good stuff. Still, once must be ever vigilant and watch those gauges like a hawk to be sure George is correct.

Another interesting tidbit, the club instructor is teaching everyone to land with power on and 10 to 20 degrees flaps. The guy who rode safety pilot for me last night said he always lands the 182 no flaps and with some power on right until the mains touch, and maintains 70kts right to the flair.

This is fine at our home field with 7400ft runway, but I'm worred some of these folks being taught these approaches could get into trouble on a short field? Comments?

He thought I was nuts, as I was 60kts short final, full flaps, and pulled the power once I knew the runway was made. Nice, short field landing, down and easily off in 1200ft.

 

[tonycondon]

I would agree you could run into problems with no flaps and the higher approach speeds on short fields. My 182RG landing technique is usually about 70 knots or so on final. when runway is made full flaps (40 degrees) and power idle. And then pull the nose way up! Easy to land those flat. Normally am down and stopped in around 1000 feet or so. 182 is as good or better than a 172 in short field performance. especially takeoff.

 

[NC Pilot]

Another interesting tidbit, the club instructor is teaching everyone to land with power on and 10 to 20 degrees flaps. The guy who rode safety pilot for me last night said he always lands the 182 no flaps and with some power on right until the mains touch, and maintains 70kts right to the flair.

This is fine at our home field with 7400ft runway, but I'm worred some of these folks being taught these approaches could get into trouble on a short field? Comments?

He thought I was nuts, as I was 60kts short final, full flaps, and pulled the power once I knew the runway was made. Nice, short field landing, down and easily off in 1200ft.

The guy I bought my 182 RG from did some of the insurance required flying time with me. He was an x-military pilot who flew fighters a long time ago. He kept insisting on 80 knots throught the flare, then planting it. I finally talked him into letting me land it like a Cessna. Full flaps and 60 knots on final flaring and landing at about 45 knots. He was very nervious at the end of the landing and we ended up agreed to each fly our planes our own way. I do know I can land and take the first taxiway if I need to. He'll still be floating down the runway.

Mark

 

[AirBaker]

I think practicing some of the landing configurations is good, but I like to have a 'procedure' for my everyday landings. I went out with a Bonanza specific instructor after I was comfortable with the plane. Instead of flying base/final at 80 knots, he made me fly at ~73 knots. (Chose an approximate weight and flew that over the fence speed). While I had no problem landing in a decent amount of runway before, it did make a big difference. The same issues were addressed with take-offs.

I'd find what works for you and use that as the 'standard'. Probably not much issue in a 182, but you'd hate to be the guy who flew the pattern hot, no flaps, and ran off the runway end.

 

[AirBaker]

Oh, and again, most people land a bit fast anyways...

 

[Ghery]

Unless there is an overriding reason not to, all my landings are full flaps. Minimizes air/ground spped, minimized wear and tear on the tires and brakes. Throttle closed before touchdown, too. 182 lands like a dream when you follow all this and watch your airspeed.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

The guy I bought my 182 RG from did some of the insurance required flying time with me. He was an x-military pilot who flew fighters a long time ago. He kept insisting on 80 knots throught the flare, then planting it. I finally talked him into letting me land it like a Cessna. Full flaps and 60 knots on final flaring and landing at about 45 knots. He was very nervious at the end of the landing and we ended up agreed to each fly our planes our own way. I do know I can land and take the first taxiway if I need to. He'll still be floating down the runway.

Mark

I've seen a few of them over the years. It must be a big let down to give up the fighter flying for most of them. My fav so far was one guy that flew StarFighters that the USA paid for and was transitioning into the harsh reality of renting a Cherokee 140 by himself and actually told the FBO owner he was going to be landing over 80 knots, "because he liked the feel of it".

It was his feeble way of remembering the jet LDGs and maintaining whatever it was perceived as in his mind, and takes about as much "skill" as revving a car motor and popping the clutch to lay rubber.

 

[Ken Ibold]

I've seen a few of them over the years. It must be a big let down to give up the fighter flying for most of them. One guy that flew StarFighters and was transitioning into renting a Cherokee 140 actually told the FBO owner he was going to be landing over 80 knots, "because he liked the feel of it".

It was his way of remembering the jet LDGs and maintaining whatever it was perceived as in his mind, and takes about as much "skill" as revving a car motor and popping the clutch to lay rubber.

And it leads to accelerated tire wear, and possibly brake wear, depending on the runway.

Personally, I like to be going as slow as possible when I hit the ground.

 

[wsuffa]

Bill,

I've become a firm believer that the "rule" is to land as slowly as possible with full flaps. My "exceptions" to the rule are strong winds (particularly cross winds) and busy major airports (>7000' runways) where ATC asks me to keep the speed up until short final.

The "rule" is because it lowers the risk of an issue on the runway upon landing. I've probably told the story before of having the inner rim break on a MLG wheel, causing a burst tire on/after landing. This happened on a short field practice landing. Had I been 20 knots faster, I don't want to think about it.

The "exceptions" are the result of experience.

Obviously, going into a major airport close to "push", you'll want to comply with ATC as best possible. Keep the 757 from going up your tailpipe. With enough runway and high-speed exits/turnoffs, this should be a non-issue.

The crosswind issue, for me, is based on experience. Lots of folks don't believe in it, and that's OK. My Commander has less rudder authority than some planes and the higher tail feathers means less impact from prop wash. Putting VGs on the plane made a whole lot of improvement.....

Ultimately, it comes down to "know thy plane". Being able to fly at the performance limits is worth practicing.... it is one reason I got my commercial.

YMMV.

 

[flyingcheesehead]

He thought I was nuts, as I was 60kts short final, full flaps, and pulled the power once I knew the runway was made. Nice, short field landing, down and easily off in 1200ft.

You're nuts. I went back and forth with my CFI a lot on this, and as usual he ended up being right. I now fly final in our 182 at 80mph (~68kt) and about 13" MP with full flaps (this is with two aboard generally). I keep the power in all the way to the flare. The problem with pulling power when the runway is made when you're already only at 60kt is that you'll end up either diving toward the runway or slowing very close to stall speed and have almost no time to flare.

I'll start by saying I have very little 182 time. I do have a bit of Mooney time, and I know in that airplane you do not want to go in hot...even by a few knots. So I am curious as to why one would want to be hot on short final with any airplane?

The Mooney is a very clean, low-drag airframe (160kt at 200hp) vs. the C182 which is VERY draggy (130kt at 235hp). The extra speed is gone in a HURRY. 5kt fast in a Mooney will result in significant float, whereas 5kt fast in a 182 is gone in a matter of a couple of seconds when power is pulled.

 

[Lawreston]

It must be a big let down to give up the fighter flying for most of them.

USAF Colonel Alfred Hendricksom was a friend of my Dad, from their childhood years. Though he had jockeyed the jets in many places in the world his most enjoyable duty -- he claimed -- was right at Dow AF Base. Now BIA in Bangor, Maine, it was only an hour's drive away from his home in Cushing.
"The Colonel:" "Yup, Ken; I love flying those jets..............but I just can't wait to get home on weekends so I can fly my J-3 off my own strip. No fancy instruments, just flat-out seat-of-the-pants flying".

HR

 

[spiderweb]

. . . .
Compared to hand flying approaches, it's soooo easy it is almost like cheating. I'm glad I learned IR in the low tech plane and hand flew everything, but one could get spoiled with all this good stuff. Still, once must be ever vigilant and watch those gauges like a hawk to be sure George is correct.

Another interesting tidbit, the club instructor is teaching everyone to land with power on and 10 to 20 degrees flaps. The guy who rode safety pilot for me last night said he always lands the 182 no flaps and with some power on right until the mains touch, and maintains 70kts right to the flair.
. . . .

As to the first paragraph, I couldn't agree more.

As to the second, my thoughts are as follows: 60 KIAS is your airspeed for short field, as per POH (I think it was actually something like 61 KIAS for the C182S). 70 KIAS is quite reasonable for other ops, but no flaps really ought not to be the norm. I was discussing how I like to land the C182S with my CFII yesterday--70 KIAS and 20 degrees for just me, or 75 KIAS and 20 degrees for a full ship; carrying a bit of power to just before the flare. His comments were that he thought my airspeeds were fine (unless I was going for a short field, in which case I needed the 61 KIAS), but that I ought to always use full flaps wherever possible.

 

[Bill]

but that I ought to always use full flaps wherever possible.

I'm a firm believer in full flap landings, and for a lightly loaded 182, I'm goig to stick with the book "short field" number of 61kts for my short final target. Full bird? 70-75 should be fine.

 

[spiderweb]

I'm a firm believer in full flap landings, and for a lightly loaded 182, I'm goig to stick with the book "short field" number of 61kts for my short final target. Full bird? 70-75 should be fine.

Like Dave S., I'm starting to have two types of landings--with passengers and without. By myself, I'll always do a short field with full flaps, regardless of runway length. Hold 61 KIAS--not a knot higher or lower--and flare for just enough time to land mains first. The C182S is an excellent short field performer. With passengers, well, first of all, we're heavier, and I'm not going to do a short field if I have a runway of more than 2500 feet. I am going to fly at 75 KIAS with 20 or 30 degrees of flaps (40 is not available), with power to just before flare. I'll bleed of airspeed to 70 and level off. I will hold her off until just as I'm hearing the stall horn. With the C182S, more often than not, you get dreamy, passenger-pleasing landings.

 

[jdwatson]

OK, so by now, I'm sure you're all sick and tired of my 182 posts, so here's the last one.

[snip]

He thought I was nuts, as I was 60kts short final, full flaps, and pulled the power once I knew the runway was made. Nice, short field landing, down and easily off in 1200ft.

I use 75kts on final and 20 degrees of flaps as my normal flaps. This works well for normal landings. I only use full 30 degrees on short field landings, which when I was flying I practiced religiously. I find short field landings fun.

BTW, I've been enjoying your posts... don't stop.

 

[Dave Krall CFII]

Like Dave S., I'm starting to have two types of landings--with passengers and without. By myself, I'll always do a short field with full flaps, regardless of runway length. Hold 61 KIAS--not a knot higher or lower--and flare for just enough time to land mains first. The C182S is an excellent short field performer. With passengers, well, first of all, we're heavier, and I'm not going to do a short field if I have a runway of more than 2500 feet. I am going to fly at 75 KIAS with 20 or 30 degrees of flaps (40 is not available), with power to just before flare. I'll bleed of airspeed to 70 and level off. I will hold her off until just as I'm hearing the stall horn. With the C182S, more often than not, you get dreamy, passenger-pleasing landings.

I like practicing short/soft field LDGs at full gross for both my students and myself where doable.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

For those of you using 70+ KIAS on short final - how much runway are you using? How far from the threshold is your touchdown point and at what speed? My home strip is ~3200', and if I'm hot (75+) on short final, I'm using a big portion of that unless I'm really pushing her onto the ground and standing on the brakes. I pay the maintenance and repair bills, so I don't do this. Our runway overrun area is a chain-link fence and city street...

I fly all my approaches at 63 KIAS full flaps (40) on short final, about 65-68 KIAS with a full load, or about 68-70 with flaps-20 in very strong winds. Power is idle once the touchdown point is made. I guess flying power-on landings is fine if you're learning to fly jets, but I just don't understand the benefit of routinely landing fast and power-on in a piston single.

Jeff

 

[spiderweb]

For those of you using 70+ KIAS on short final - how much runway are you using? How far from the threshold is your touchdown point and at what speed? My home strip is ~3200', and if I'm hot (75+) on short final, I'm using a big portion of that unless I'm really pushing her onto the ground and standing on the brakes. I pay the maintenance and repair bills, so I don't do this. Our runway overrun area is a chain-link fence and city street...

I have been using 70 KIAS solo with 20 flaps on short final, but I am not aiming 1000 feet down the runway. There is a float--and very gentle touchdown. It isn't a short field landing, but 3,200 feet would be more than adequate. Shorter runways than that, or with any runway contamination, quartering tailwind, etc., I would use the short field technique.

I fly all my approaches at 63 KIAS full flaps (40) on short final, about 65-68 KIAS with a full load, or about 68-70 with flaps-20 in very strong winds. Power is idle once the touchdown point is made. I guess flying power-on landings is fine if you're learning to fly jets, but I just don't understand the benefit of routinely landing fast and power-on in a piston single.

I am not sure what you or others mean by "landing fast" or "power-on," but at least in my case, I keep some power on until just before flare. The flare and touchdown is made at power idle and just above stall speed. For a true soft field, I would keep power on until touchdown (see PTS), but I am not allowed to land on soft fields with the C182S I rent.

 

[Jeff Oslick]

I am not sure what you or others mean by "landing fast" or "power-on," but at least in my case, I keep some power on until just before flare. The flare and touchdown is made at power idle and just above stall speed. For a true soft field, I would keep power on until touchdown (see PTS), but I am not allowed to land on soft fields with the C182S I rent.

Ben-

What I'm referring to, and something I've personally see CFI's teach as "normal", is carrying some power through the flare to touchdown. As you know, so long as there is enough nose-up trim dialed in, there isn't any advantage to that practice. I think the power-through-the-flare practice came from folks who haven't quite learned how important elevator trim is in a 182.

Jeff

 

[SCCutler]

Ben-

What I'm referring to, and something I've personally see CFI's teach as "normal", is carrying some power through the flare to touchdown. As you know, so long as there is enough nose-up trim dialed in, there isn't any advantage to that practice. I think the power-through-the-flare practice came from folks who haven't quite learned how important elevator trim is in a 182.

Jeff

Jeff, I had to embarrass myself a few times in the 182 before I finally understood the concept (no bent firewalls, but maybe a bounce or two!).

But that scarcely prepared me for my first time left-seat in a 210! I thought the controls were stuck or some such nonsense! Talk about trim requirements.

 

[Bill]

I think the power-through-the-flare practice came from folks who haven't quite learned how important elevator trim is in a 182.

I find you have to spin that wheel down a good bit (compared to the 172) to trim the control pressures off on a 65kt final with full flaps.

 

[NC Pilot]

I find you have to spin that wheel down a good bit (compared to the 172) to trim the control pressures off on a 65kt final with full flaps.

Two turns on the trim wheel on final does it for me.

 

[jdwatson]

For those of you using 70+ KIAS on short final - how much runway are you using? How far from the threshold is your touchdown point and at what speed? My home strip is ~3200', and if I'm hot (75+) on short final, I'm using a big portion of that unless I'm really pushing her onto the ground and standing on the brakes. I pay the maintenance and repair bills, so I don't do this. Our runway overrun area is a chain-link fence and city street...

I fly all my approaches at 63 KIAS full flaps (40) on short final, about 65-68 KIAS with a full load, or about 68-70 with flaps-20 in very strong winds. Power is idle once the touchdown point is made. I guess flying power-on landings is fine if you're learning to fly jets, but I just don't understand the benefit of routinely landing fast and power-on in a piston single.

Jeff

I frequently land on RWY32 at KRDU, 3570x100'. I make the 1st taxiway everytime, it's about 700' from the end. Unless I hit a tail wind, I don't have to stand on the brakes to make the turn-off. My focus is to manage the energy all the way to the taxiway. I'm at idle (or near idle in the T206H) as I cross the threshold, hold the nose off all the way to the taxiway (all the way to the chocks with the T206H). My touch downs are just past the numbers, aerodynamic breaking all the way.

The T206H is a little different in the sense that there's a whole lot more mass and power to manage. I still use 75kts as my reference speed on final. I land with a little power so I can manage the touchdown as soft as I can. It's a heavy plane compared with a lot of piston singles.

I don't consider 75kts on final fast. AT KRDU on the big runways with faster traffic behind me, I keep 110-120kts to the OM and take the earliest turn-off I can safely make. I fly mostly to class-C airports and the practice takes the stress off of flying into class-B airspace.

 

[spiderweb]

Ben-

What I'm referring to, and something I've personally see CFI's teach as "normal", is carrying some power through the flare to touchdown. As you know, so long as there is enough nose-up trim dialed in, there isn't any advantage to that practice. I think the power-through-the-flare practice came from folks who haven't quite learned how important elevator trim is in a 182.

Jeff

I see. Well, IMO carrying power right to touchdown isn't or shouldn't be a normal SOP, except for true soft field landings (per PTS). For normal landings, I like 70-75 KIAS (now, with 30 degrees), power off before flare, gentle trim-up twist, and that's all she needs. For short field, I fly 61 KIAS, and watch that nose when power goes off!

 

[spiderweb]

I find you have to spin that wheel down a good bit (compared to the 172) to trim the control pressures off on a 65kt final with full flaps.

It is more than a C172. I don't need any trim in the pattern at all in a C172. But realize also that your angle will affect trim, too. IOW, if you are trying to hold 65 KIAS down a 3 degree slope, you will need lots of trim, and some power. OTOH, if you are flying a tighter pattern and want to descend more in line with a VFR final, you won't need much or any power, and not as much trim.

I just hate flying with a lot of nose-up trim on final with the C182. It isn't really very safe on a go-around.

 

[spiderweb]

I don't consider 75kts on final fast. AT KRDU on the big runways with faster traffic behind me, I keep 110-120kts to the OM and take the earliest turn-off I can safely make. I fly mostly to class-C airports and the practice takes the stress off of flying into class-B airspace.

Once you know how to do this, it is even fun. I fly 130 KIAS to just outside the FAF, slow to 110 and fly the glideslope down all the way at this airspeed. At DH, no runway, add power and you are flying away. If I have the runway, power back to read 1500 RPM, flaps 20 or 30, prop full below 100 KIAS, and I watch the speed bleed down to 70 KIAS. At BWI, there's also usually a circle to land, as well (from MDA)!

 

[AirBaker]

Once you know how to do this, it is even fun. I fly 130 KIAS to just outside the FAF, slow to 110 and fly the glideslope down all the way at this airspeed. At DH, no runway, add power and you are flying away. If I have the runway, power back to read 1500 RPM, flaps 20 or 30, prop full below 100 KIAS, and I watch the speed bleed down to 70 KIAS. At BWI, there's also usually a circle to land, as well (from MDA)!

That seems fast. I have 0 Instrument time in the 182, but for a plane that flies slow easily, why not slow it down a bit? Unless of course asked for best forward speed?

 

[spiderweb]

That seems fast. I have 0 Instrument time in the 182, but for a plane that flies slow easily, why not slow it down a bit? Unless of course asked for best forward speed?

Remember, we're talking Class B operations. At D and below, I like to fly the glideslope at 100 KIAS. Of course, from DH to landing I slow down to a normal, slower final speed (usually 70 KIAS).

 

[AirBaker]

Remember, we're talking Class B operations. At D and below, I like to fly the glideslope at 100 KIAS. Of course, from DH to landing I slow down to a normal, slower final speed (usually 70 KIAS).

That makes better sense then.

 

[spiderweb]

That makes better sense then.

BTW, nice pix!